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Thread: Local Associations, Huh, What Are They Good For?

  1. #16
    Super Moderator gunny's Avatar
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    Originally posted by nkokas:
    The article is inaccurate then.

    The number is 500 or more off.
    Atlanta in its failed bid for 2009 had to guarantee 450 permit waivers.

    Either you're correct & Greiner is off base or you're off base & Greiner is correct or the number is between 250 & 750.
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  2. #17
    Super Moderator gunny's Avatar
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    Just as a clarification as threads do wander some:

    This is not a beat up on Carey subject. Carey gets away with exactly what locals allow them to get away with.

    Question would have to be if the GLLA was a union v. association would Carey just be able to waltz into town & take over?
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  3. #18
    Senior Member Limo Padawan
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    My point is even though they used 200 some odd cars....

    They got licensed, proved insurance, got vehicles inspected by the state and became legal to provide service to their already customers.

    There is enough business for all. There is simply too much demand for the local supply. The locals that did not get work are to blame themselves.

    When a out of state company comes into the state with 5 stretches with no bookings and then goes through the yellow book and markets like crazy all the hotels from A to Z and sells out. Why can't the local? I met a guy from Atlanta at the State temp processing location and he had zero reservations coming in. That same night after he got licensed he sold out his fleet. The problem with some locals is that they are too lazy to go and get the business on their own. They expected another limo company to do it for them. Shame on them. I'm not in business to run someone elses business. that is there job.

    All I can tell you is that as long as you market yourself you will have so much superbowl work you won't know what to do with it.

  4. #19
    Super Moderator gunny's Avatar
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    Originally posted by nkokas:

    They got licensed, proved insurance, got vehicles inspected by the state and became legal to provide service to their already customers.
    Sec 35. A person shall not violate or evade the provisions of this act through any devise or arrangement.

    Did every limousine operator (including Carey's various franchises) who entered Michigan to provide Super Bowl transportation go through the very same mandated procedure to be licensed as a Michigan based operator would go through to obtain a Certificate of Authority? Was the process streamlined? What is the state requirement for drivers providing passenger for-hire transportation within Michigan?

    After the easy questions we'll attack Detroits VFH ordinances.
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  5. #20
    Senior Member Limo Padawan
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    We are state regulated

  6. #21
    Super Moderator gunny's Avatar
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    Originally posted by nkokas:
    We are state regulated
    Which means that Detroit VFH Ordinances are not applicable to limos providing intra-city transportation?

    And do we have an answer if Carey & the other out-of-state carriers had to obtain a Certificate of Authority as required by law following the same procedures as Michigan based carriers.
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  7. #22
    Senior Member Limo Padawan
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    I thought I answered this already below..

    But

    Yes they did.

  8. #23
    Super Moderator gunny's Avatar
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    Originally posted by nkokas:
    I thought I answered this already below..

    But

    Yes they did.
    By this response what you are saying is that I can haul myself & my Florida registered vehicles up to Michigan & receive a "Certificate of Authority" as a Florida registered business.

    Lets see what the law is:

    257.1905 Applicability of act.
    Sec.5.(1) This act shall not apply to a limo carrier of passengers that is any of the following:
    ( g ) Only operating wholly within the boundaries of a local unit of government if the local unit of government has its own safety inspection and insurance requirements.

    Sec. 7. (1) A limo carrier of passengers that operates class B limousines for the purpose of picking up passengers within a city with a population of 750,000 or more shall also comply with the vehicle for hire ordinance of the city with respect to those limousines. However, a limo carrier of passengers may remain in the city during a given trip for the sole purpose of picking up the same passengers that the limo carrier of passengers originally brought into the city on that trip.

    (3) "Class B limousine" means a limousine with a seating capacity of less than 7 passengers.

    What this means is that sedans can drop off but cannot return at a later time or date to provide a return trip.
    Who penned this law? This sweet piece of legislation in essence states that the Detroit sedan bandits also licensed with the state can in effect conduct raids into surrounding communities to load passengers yet sedan operators in surrounding smaller communities cannot do the same in Detroit. All kinds of payola rolled into getting this passed. Just another example of why smaller suburban/rural operators need to stay away from associations like this & probably why only approximately 10% of Michigan Operators are members of the GLLA.

    Detroit's VFH Ordinance

    Sec. 58-2-20 Bond required
    No person shall operate for hire, upon the streets of the City of Detroit any taxicab or any luxury sedan without first obtaining authorization therefor from the consumer affairs department......

    Sec. 58-2-23 Application
    Application for a bond for a taxicab or for a luxury sedan shall be made by the registered owner upon the application furnished by the consumer affairs department.

    Sec 58-2-31 License required
    No person shall operate any limousine or commuter van for hire upon the streets of the City of Detroit without first obtaining a vehicle for hire license from the consumer affairs department.

    Sec. 58-2-55 Requirements for drivers
    (a) In order to operate a limousine, a luxury sedan, or a commuter van under this section, a driver shall possess a valid Michigan chauffeur's license, a valid City of Detroit public driver's license which has been obtained in accordance with Division 6 of this article.......

    Now, did the 200-750 vehicles & drivers Carey imported provide transportation within Detroit in compliance with the law?
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  9. #24
    Senior Member Limo Padawan
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    Incorrect assesment by Gunny.

    Just because a city makes an ordinance, it can't supercede state law. Sedans are allowed to pickup in the city of Detroit. The ordinance that you are reffering to is unenforceable according to MDOT. It is legislation with no teeth.

    In terms of your wording on the GLLA watch what you say. I am beginning to think you need to educate yourself prior to making judgement without the facts.

    You have nooooo idea what the GLLA has accomplished. 10% of the operators in Michigan is a huge number considering the major players in the state are represented. Instead you should ask yourself what percenatge of licensed vehicles in the state are members.

    This industry is a different dinamic compared to professional industries. What percentage do you represent? 10% may not sound like alot but in this industry it is. Do not look at New York or New Jersey (limo capitals of the world).

    Anyways Gunny I respect your past posts but in terms of the Detroit market you are making comments as if you are an expert on the history of what the local industry has done as a whole which you are not. you have no idea what the Association as whole has accomplished legally and legislatively and to be quite honest I don't feel like listing them beacuse one the list is too long and why does it matter.

  10. #25
    Senior Member Limo Padawan
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    Also the state of Michigan is a State that is apart of a program (I'm not sure what it is called) that if a limo company is licensewd in another state it will allow that company to conduct business in Michigan so long as Michigan gets its fees.

    I TOTALLY forget the law but it is somewhere hidden in there. As a moatter of Fact about another 15 states have the same law. Someone brought it up to me during DuperBowl last Year and I researched and found it to be true. My problem is that I never saved the info.

  11. #26
    Super Moderator gunny's Avatar
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    Detroit's VFH ordinances do not supercede state law. It is state law that mandates sedan operators comply with VFH ordinances of cities with a population of 750k or more. In fact the wording, "shall also comply with the vehicle for hire ordinance of that city" is mandatory and not discretionary. Again, strictly based on the wording of this section of State Law & using Detroit as an example. Sedan Operators licensed by both Detroit & the State can go anywhere other then other cities with a population of 750k or more and load passengers without being subject to local economic regulatory's. A sedan operator based outside of & not meeting the licensing requirements of Detroit may not enter the city jurisdiction to load passengers. If it is not enforced today is irrelevant as it can be put into play tommorrow & there is a State Law to back such action.

    Did some politico think of this all by him/herself while taking a dump one morning or did certain Industry businesspersons slip some envelopes into the politicos hands to have the law worded as such? Who were these Industry business people & what position do they/ have they held with the association?

    Cities bid on hosting the Super Bowl & must meet the criteria set by the NFL. This criteria includes the importing of transportation & waiving of licensing requirements and fees. City SB Committees are formed of local business leaders who offer the moon including suspension of laws regulating the VFH industry to snag this lucrative venture. They do not have the statutory authority to do this nor can I find any provisions of law offering temporary type licensing authority. The MDOT is a state agency charged with enforcement of transportation statutes & not enactment of laws.

    Carey & others were not licensed to set up shop & provide passenger-for-hire transportation pursuant to state & local laws. These laws were ignored and replaced by a simple procedure to rubber stamp temporary operating authority in the name of money & meet the demands of the NFL. Sort of like the farmers needing the illegals to pick the veggies. Laws are tossed aside in the name of economics.

    Failure to enforce laws does not mean the laws do not exist.

    BTW, I am not in agreement with the laws. They are dicriminatory and in my humble opinion a violation of the 14th Amemdment. The sedan inclusion is the obvious workings of influential members of the industry whose obvious import is a monopoly driven self serving agenda. If these self-serving individuals are members or worse hold/have held positions of leadership in the GLLA then the associations image is a tarnished one. Just ask the Republicans.
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  12. #27
    Senior Member Limo Padawan
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    The History of HB 5812, which is the line you are talking about, was spirited by the largest cab company in the state. ( As we can all imagine) "those darn cab companies" Was not a member of the association.

    As a matter of fact the verbage of HB5812 was completely different than that law that actually passed.

    The GLLA spent tens of thiousands of dollars hiring one of the 2 largest lobbying firms in Lansing. The association was in Lansing and organized days where limos surrounded the capital and contacted the news media to cover the story. The association did a great job at the time.

    The original bill would have shut out ALL CLASSES of limousine out of the city of Detroit PERIOD!.

    We allowed the current verbage to go through without a fight lwtting the cabbies think they got away with something in the negotiations.

    Why?

    Both the legal analysyts as well as MDOT, State attorney General said that the law is unenforceable. It conflicts with current state law. Because there is a conflict in the state law with the Detroit ordinance it can not be enforced. If a sedan were to be ticketed tomorrow the ticket would be dismisssed. the city at the beginning tried it and in court it could not be upheld.

    It was a huge victory for the industry and the GLLA.

    By the way Gunny it has been fun debating.

    We need more meat and potatoe debates like this on limos.com rather than the What should I charge if someone pukes in the car?

  13. #28
    Super Moderator gunny's Avatar
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    If everyone just rolled over in agreement there would be no learning process & that is the value of debate.

    Those who understand what my fight is about & my tactics being deployed will understand that the sword cuts both ways & I intend to gut agencies with the very same laws they utilize to inflict damage upon intrastate motor carriers.

    If Fl law was written as the Michigan with regards to sedans, there wouldn't be a snow ball chance in hell of prevailing in a challenge especially against Tampa. I do not believe that Detroit could not succeed in enforcement of its ordinances upon non-city sedan operators. I believe it is more of a motivational reason why the issue has not been pushed. In Tampa for instance the regulatory agency is a Independent Special District because the county wanted no part in financing this taxicab creation. Therefore the agency must rely regulatory fees for existence so they have expanded the law to include intrastate carriers.

    In Motown, I would imagine that the city really does not care & the enforcement cost would outway the benefits.

    I didn't start this as lesson in Michigan limo transportation law but it has been interesting.

    I will return on beating GLLA up on the SB issue though& why Associations should be fighting like hell to ensure its membership gets to eat off the plate before the invaders do.
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  14. #29

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    Originally posted by gunny:
    If everyone just rolled over in agreement there would be no learning process & that is the value of debate.

    Those who understand what my fight is about & my tactics being deployed will understand that the sword cuts both ways & I intend to gut agencies with the very same laws they utilize to inflict damage upon intrastate motor carriers.

    If Fl law was written as the Michigan with regards to sedans, there wouldn't be a snow ball chance in hell of prevailing in a challenge especially against Tampa. I do not believe that Detroit could not succeed in enforcement of its ordinances upon non-city sedan operators. I believe it is more of a motivational reason why the issue has not been pushed. In Tampa for instance the regulatory agency is a Independent Special District because the county wanted no part in financing this taxicab creation. Therefore the agency must rely regulatory fees for existence so they have expanded the law to include intrastate carriers.

    In Motown, I would imagine that the city really does not care & the enforcement cost would outway the benefits.

    I didn't start this as lesson in Michigan limo transportation law but it has been interesting.

    I will return on beating GLLA up on the SB issue though& why Associations should be fighting like hell to ensure its membership gets to eat off the plate before the invaders do.
    Gunny, Government, Convention & Corporate America insist on Chauffeurs, not drivers, and the very best newest equipment. Not everyone can provide the level of service required. There is no American Entitlement Act covering lesser services or those that don't understand that they must make their own destiny.
    Dean Schuler

  15. #30
    Super Moderator gunny's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Dean Schuler:
    Gunny, Government, Convention & Corporate America insist on Chauffeurs, not drivers, and the very best newest equipment. Not everyone can provide the level of service required. There is no American Entitlement Act covering lesser services or those that don't understand that they must make their own destiny.
    Good! Then the NFL will not mind if Carey gets smacked out of town & their legions are faced with the pricing components of a free market based on quality, supply & demand v. NFL fixed pricing. Of course once NYC builds its domed stadium they can permanently book Super Bowls there as quality transportation demanded is easily supplied in the Big A without importing from regions across the US.

    Besides if top quality was an issue then DavEl would be the NFL's obvious choice.
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