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Thread: Another NLA Scam ?

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    Super Moderator gunny's Avatar
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    OK, we've been hearing for years that the NLA has been fighting to rid the industry of the unfair (?) gas guzzler tax imposed on stretch limos that are bought to make money with and are a tax write off.
    Personally I don't see what's unfair about paying a tax that everyone in the Nation is subject to.
    As the gas guzzler tax law is written, this tax is imposed on passenger vehicles with a weight of 6,000lbs or less. The law includes a sentence that exempted the max weight for limos. In other words a limo coming in at 7,000lbs would still be subjected to the gas guzzler tax.
    This is the portion that will be repealed upon a signature from the Prez.
    Based on figures from Ford, QVM builders are limited to a max GVW of 7,500lbs on TC conversions. Based on the figures provided for passengers and luggage the max curb weight that the limo can weigh under QVM guidelines is 5,950lbs based on 8 passengers + the driver.
    Therefore, the only TC stretches that would be exempt from the gas guzzler tax will be non-QVM's.
    Now through the news media the industry has been notified that the gas guzzler exemption is just waiting for a signature from President Bush.
    Again, after numerous years and countless hours put in by the NLA leadership, Through the news media the word has come out.
    Maybe they're busy working on a "Spin" angle?
    End the Corruption. Disband the Hillsborough County Public Transportation Commission www.thefita.com

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    Gunny why do you always bash the NLA? Have you called and spoke with a NLA board member to find out why the gas guzzler bill had to be re-written? Why there had to be changes made? All you do is complain about almost everything the NLA has done, as far as I can see you aren't even a member of the NLA, you have never been a board member and I bet you have never even been on the board of any of your local Limousine associations in Florida. So why dont you step up to the plate and volunteer your time to help out the industry you claim to know so much about!!!!!!

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    Super Moderator gunny's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Limo Bus Lord:
    Gunny why do you always bash the NLA? Have you called and spoke with a NLA board member to find out why the gas guzzler bill had to be re-written? Why there had to be changes made? All you do is complain about almost everything the NLA has done, as far as I can see you aren't even a member of the NLA, you have never been a board member and I bet you have never even been on the board of any of your local Limousine associations in Florida. So why dont you step up to the plate and volunteer your time to help out the industry you claim to know so much about!!!!!!
    Before one runs that hole under the nose about someone they should read all the post of the individual they are attempting to call out.

    Now if the "Lord" has some wisdom of the "gas guzzler" fiasco that the rest of us don't know about, do enlighten us.

    Now, as far as volunteering to help the industry. I think financing on my own a Federal Lawsuit to fight unlawful regulation is more than most are willing to do.
    End the Corruption. Disband the Hillsborough County Public Transportation Commission www.thefita.com

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    Originally posted by gunny:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Limo Bus Lord:
    Gunny why do you always bash the NLA? Have you called and spoke with a NLA board member to find out why the gas guzzler bill had to be re-written? Why there had to be changes made? All you do is complain about almost everything the NLA has done, as far as I can see you aren't even a member of the NLA, you have never been a board member and I bet you have never even been on the board of any of your local Limousine associations in Florida. So why dont you step up to the plate and volunteer your time to help out the industry you claim to know so much about!!!!!!
    Before one runs that hole under the nose about someone they should read all the post of the individual they are attempting to call out.

    Now if the "Lord" has some wisdom of the "gas guzzler" fiasco that the rest of us don't know about, do enlighten us.

    Now, as far as volunteering to help the industry. I think financing on my own a Federal Lawsuit to fight unlawful regulation is more than most are willing to do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    If I remember correctly gunny that lawsuit was filed in Florida against your rules and regs, and limousine operators could stand to lose money with the new rules right? Well your profile states you own a Limousine company, of course your going to fight those rules because it will hurt your bottom line too. Let me ask you this Mr. Gunny would you be fighting these new rules and regs if they came down in say Georgia instead of Florida?? The NLA fights for a better industry as a whole not just what is better for the board members.

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    Super Moderator gunny's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Limo Bus Lord:

    If I remember correctly gunny that lawsuit was filed in Florida against your rules and regs, and limousine operators could stand to lose money with the new rules right? Well your profile states you own a Limousine company, of course your going to fight those rules because it will hurt your bottom line too. Let me ask you this Mr. Gunny would you be fighting these new rules and regs if they came down in say Georgia instead of Florida?? The NLA fights for a better industry as a whole not just what is better for the board members.
    Name One Fight (With A Proof Source) That The NLA Jumped Into That Benefits The Industry As A Whole.

    You're in Colorado regulated by the State. Unless you have a clue of multiple permitting controlled by Counties there is not much I can do as class is over.

    Again, go to the post under regulations and read all the threads. Mabe you'll have a clue as to the situation in the industry & the minimal action the NLA has put forth to help the many not just the few.
    End the Corruption. Disband the Hillsborough County Public Transportation Commission www.thefita.com

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    Super Moderator gunny's Avatar
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    I'm going to do something that is out of character. I will give the NLA some friendly advice.
    First, you blew it on the gas guzzler boys! What you are looking for is a law that will exempt stretch limos from extra taxation! You are saying that the individual buying a vehicle that will be used at a charge of $70-100 per hour shouldn't be hit with a measly couple of grand tax! You're also saying that the rich SOB that buys a private stretch shouldn't also be taxed! This will look real good with the poor folk.

    Hey fellas, the stretch is a people mover that is operated for compensation! That stretch is a BUS! I have yet found a definition for limousine under Fed Stats. If anyone knows where a definition is located post it. Unless one can be found that differs from the Fed definition of a BUS a stretch utilized for compensation is a BUS.

    Bet it'll be easier to convince the politicians of that than to convince them that the rich SOB shouldn't pay a guzzler tax for his personal limo.
    End the Corruption. Disband the Hillsborough County Public Transportation Commission www.thefita.com

  7. #7

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    Gunny you got to love the Limo Bus Lord. I think he has been sitting to much in the back of that Limo Bus and that the exhaust fumes have impaired his thinking process. Another NLA groupie who feels he has to belong to something. I can't wait until his local TAXI BARRON looks to snuff out his business and he looks to the NLA for HELP.

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    Super Moderator gunny's Avatar
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    You know, the subject of the NLA's fight on abolishing the gas guzzler tax was something I never dwelled on except when it was brought up in articles as the #1 focus of the leadership when I felt & any surveys posted showed that this was not a main concern of operators.

    For some individuals having this tax repealed meant only that now this BS fight is over the NLA can now concentrate on more important issues like over-regulation (economic) and high insurance premiums.

    In LCTs August issue it is reported that $1,300-2,100 is added to the cost of a new purchase of a stretch because of this tax. I'll be willing to bet that a "large" majority of operators pocket 10X this amount yearly in cash jobs that escapes the tax man.

    What the NLA accomplished by accident or incompentence is the relief of the gg tax from limos in excess of 6,000lbs. To convince Congress that while the gg tax is imposed on every vehicle that falls under the guidelines of the law for every American consumer, somehow it is unfair for those purchasing the vehicles to make a good living off of plus the operating cost is tax deductible is a tough feat to pull off. That in order for the limos to be exempt from the gg tax, the law would have to modified that specifically exempts "limousines" from the gg tax. Or, in other words, exempt the "rich" from their fair share of taxes. August LCT runs an article about the opposition to the industry being exempt from the gas guzzler tax that is fairly stiff & I think it is time for the NLA to lick its wounds and move on to more important matters facing the industry.
    End the Corruption. Disband the Hillsborough County Public Transportation Commission www.thefita.com

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    Super Moderator gunny's Avatar
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    Ok about as official as it can get until the actual law is published. From heavy duty sources within the industry. The NLA leadership will be left with more than egg on the face. More like a Dennys Grand Slam Breakfast.

    If you purchase a limo with a curb weight (the actual weight of the vehicle) of 6,000lbs or less or with fuel economy of less than 22.5 mpg, you will be subject to the GG Tax.

    If the coach builder ups the weight past the 6,000lb mark you will not be subject to the GG Tax.

    Of course the material used to up the weight will be added to the production cost and it will be passed on to the buyer. Plus there is still that QVM thing they must be concerned with.

    In other words, more than likely the repeal of the one liner applied to the "Fat" limos will not affect anyone.

    The big head scratcher for the day is, as the limos purchased by operators are utilized in the for-hire trade are they classified as "automobiles"?

    Hint: What is the classification of an 8 pax engaged in interstate commerce?

    Another question that someone may know, it is to my understanding that the coach builder pays the GG Tax & passes it on to the buyer of the unit. Now, does the coach builder pay the GG Tax on the TC purchased from Ford? As the tax is based on fuel economy, who figures out the mpg after the TC is stretched?
    End the Corruption. Disband the Hillsborough County Public Transportation Commission www.thefita.com

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    If you purchase a limo with a curb weight (the actual weight of the vehicle) of 6,000lbs or less or with fuel economy of less than 22.5 mpg, you will be subject to the GG Tax.
    Well I am all for less taxes, but someone explain this to me. If it is true what JHJ says about how the NLA is only looking out for the big boys of the industry it sounds like to me this change would not benefit them to much as the majority of cars they run are 120" or less. Or was Barry L. trying for the exemption for the under 6K group and this was the compromise? Or was the goal just to stop the singling out of all "limousines" in the law.

    Limo Bus Lord, if you have some insight into this please share it with us. This board is for sharing information not hiding it. And no, I do not want to call anyone about it.

    But I guess the saliency of this issue is clear from the lack of informed responses (aside from Gunny) . When people do not care about an issue there is not much interest in finding out anything about it.

    And Gunny QVM issues aside, if the builders were to make a 120 over 6K that would be a commercial vehicle over 3 tons. And that would make it illegal to enter many neighborhoods (rarely enforced) and at least one major freeway section here in SoCal (110 north of 101). So if they did do a 6K plus 120" I think it would only prove to make the 100" more desirable to operators who did not want to get the 3 ton commercial vehicle designation.

  11. #11
    Super Moderator gunny's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Steve W.:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If you purchase a limo with a curb weight (the actual weight of the vehicle) of 6,000lbs or less or with fuel economy of less than 22.5 mpg, you will be subject to the GG Tax.
    Well I am all for less taxes, but someone explain this to me. If it is true what JHJ says about how the NLA is only looking out for the big boys of the industry it sounds like to me this change would not benefit them to much as the majority of cars they run are 120" or less. Or was Barry L. trying for the exemption for the under 6K group and this was the compromise? Or was the goal just to stop the singling out of all "limousines" in the law.

    Limo Bus Lord, if you have some insight into this please share it with us. This board is for sharing information not hiding it. And no, I do not want to call anyone about it.

    But I guess the saliency of this issue is clear from the lack of informed responses (aside from Gunny) . When people do not care about an issue there is not much interest in finding out anything about it.

    And Gunny QVM issues aside, if the builders were to make a 120 over 6K that would be a commercial vehicle over 3 tons. And that would make it illegal to enter many neighborhoods (rarely enforced) and at least one major freeway section here in SoCal (110 north of 101). So if they did do a 6K plus 120" I think it would only prove to make the 100" more desirable to operators who did not want to get the 3 ton commercial vehicle designation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Steve, It was a mess from the start that few cared about. Maybe Dean can add some insight.
    End the Corruption. Disband the Hillsborough County Public Transportation Commission www.thefita.com

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    Super Moderator gunny's Avatar
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    I'm going to add to the confusion:

    Limousine manufacturers/coach builders have been required to pay $1,300 to 2,100 per automobile in GG tax and the manufacturer then builds the cost of that tax into the selling price of the vehicle. (a reliable source)

    This is just a theory that I should be able to cofirm in a few days.

    Coach Builder purchases TC sedans from Ford

    Coach Builder pays Ford the applied GG Tax based on the EPA mileage rating for the TC sedan. The $1,300 - 2,100 covers mpg ratings of 18.5 to 21.5 mpg.

    Coach Builder turns TC into a beautiful 120" limousine.

    Coach Builder sells the 120" for a price + the GG tax paid to Ford.

    If this holds up, regardless of if the stretch weighs in at 5,500lbs or 7,000lbs the buyer will still have to reimburse the Coach Builder the cost of the GG tax on the sedan unit purchased from Ford.

    Again, for now a theory...
    End the Corruption. Disband the Hillsborough County Public Transportation Commission www.thefita.com

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    Oh the Tax is on the Base unit? I just assumed they figured it out after it was stretched and was getting 14MPG. I did not think the base Town car would even get a Gas Guzzler Tax. Boy that is a dumb tax considering Trucks and Suv's are exempt.

  14. #14
    Super Moderator gunny's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Steve W.:
    Oh the Tax is on the Base unit? I just assumed they figured it out after it was stretched and was getting 14MPG. I did not think the base Town car would even get a Gas Guzzler Tax. Boy that is a dumb tax considering Trucks and Suv's are exempt.
    That's the con my boy! If the tax was based on the mpg of a stretch of say 14mpg it would be $5,400.00.

    The NLA screwed up and now are covering their collected behinds and I hope they do not try to make Barry the fall guy all he did was follow the orders of incompetent leaders of the NLA. But, I have a feeling these clowns will toss him under the bus to save face. Either way clowns I'm looking, investigating and posting! The industry will know the truth of the big scam & those responsible!

    Either the limo operators will pay GG tax only on QVM vehicles or a tax regardless of the weight. All dependent on if the monies paid to the builder is the tax payment or reimbursement for the tax on the base unit.

    Now someone tell me, Are there any 120's that are EPA rated for mileage of 18.5 to 21.5 mpg?

    Does the EPA even rate the mpg of stretch limos?
    End the Corruption. Disband the Hillsborough County Public Transportation Commission www.thefita.com

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    Super Moderator gunny's Avatar
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    A BILL (exact wording)

    To ammend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to provide that certain limousines are not subject to the gas guzzler tax.

    Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled.

    Section 1. Treatment Of Limousines Under Gas Guzzler Tax.

    (a) In General - Subparagraph (A) of section 4064(b)(1) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 is amended by striking the last sentence.
    (c) Effective Date - The ammendment made by this section shall apply to sales after the date of the enactment of this Act.


    As we already know, the certain limousines are the NON-QVM limos that are built exceeding Ford & Caddy's recommended max weight.

    TLPA got it right! http://www.tlpa.org/washington/call2action.htm


    Sources have stated that the NLA spent approximately $500,000. of its members dues on this loser endeavor. I'm sure some pissed off NLA members will demand an accounting & the true/confirmed figures will be made public.

    It was reported that the political powers to be screwed up the wording of the BILL. Horse S--t! The NLA Hierarchy knew exactly the wording of this BILL & were too dumb or blind to know what it meant or knew & tried to be slick! If that be the case maybe some handcuffs aren't that far away.

    The Taxi Barons are probably going to make Scott the guest of honor at the TLPA Trade Show in Boston later on this year.

    $500,000. would of supported many legal battles with refunds on the win. Who knows what was spent on the RIDE Act scam. Oh yes, another subject for another day. Hint, start reading the laws I've published and start connecting dots. Tow trucks all over the country beat the regulators in numerous Circuit Courts because they didn't have numbnuts blowing the farm on greasing politicians palms.

    Hey Scott & Fran, where's the next Photo Op taking place?

    And Where The Hell Is JHJ???
    End the Corruption. Disband the Hillsborough County Public Transportation Commission www.thefita.com

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