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Thread: Operator or Broker?

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    Super Moderator gunny's Avatar
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    Between numbers posted in LCT & LCT mailings for trade shows I see companies with fleet size claims & Guest Speaker Bios with fleet size claims that just didn't seem to make sense.

    When I read so&so started off in whatever year & now "operates" X amount of vehicles, that X amount that he/she operates is what is under the physical control of the operator. In other words if every driver walked off the job the garage will still be holding X amount of vehicles.

    There are certain cities where the fleet size can be confirmed within minutes with one being NYC whereas the TLC website lists all base operators & vehicles licensed to the base.

    What I'm seeing is "Broker" businesses claiming to be operatives of large fleets whereas in reality all they have is a desk & a phone so-to-speak & most importantly, "no VFH licensing authority". Presenting to the Industry & the General Public any claims of maintaining large fleet operations to give the impression of being a large limousine service is dishonest.

    I'm waiting on confirmation from the NYC TLC on 2 such companies so being represented in LCT advertising.

    Does anyone have a different take regarding what the meaning of "operating XX amount of vehicles" should imply?
    Airport Limo Service Spring Hill, Brooksville, Citrus County FL
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    Senior Member Wade Randolph's Avatar
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    Originally posted by gunny:
    Between numbers posted in LCT & LCT mailings for trade shows I see companies with fleet size claims & Guest Speaker Bios with fleet size claims that just didn't seem to make sense.

    When I read so&so started off in whatever year & now "operates" X amount of vehicles, that X amount that he/she operates is what is under the physical control of the operator. In other words if every driver walked off the job the garage will still be holding X amount of vehicles.

    There are certain cities where the fleet size can be confirmed within minutes with one being NYC whereas the TLC website lists all base operators & vehicles licensed to the base.

    What I'm seeing is "Broker" businesses claiming to be operatives of large fleets whereas in reality all they have is a desk & a phone so-to-speak & most importantly, "no VFH licensing authority". Presenting to the Industry & the General Public any claims of maintaining large fleet operations to give the impression of being a large limousine service is dishonest.

    I'm waiting on confirmation from the NYC TLC on 2 such companies so being represented in LCT advertising.

    Does anyone have a different take regarding what the meaning of "operating XX amount of vehicles" should imply?
    Gunny the trend now is to be a "broker". Most of the large operators now get 30% or more of their revenues from being a booker or broker. This trend will continue to grow because operators make more money off brokered jobs than their own jobs with their own fleets. I see the trend in the future with nothing but I/O's in large markets getting their jobs from brokers. Most of these brokers will be former large fleet owners that see the profitability in not having the overhead of a large fleet. This could benefit good chauffeurs that will control their own car and work as much as they want or as little as they want.

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    Super Moderator gunny's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Wade Randolph:

    Gunny the trend now is to be a "broker". Most of the large operators now get 30% or more of their revenues from being a booker or broker. This trend will continue to grow because operators make more money off brokered jobs than their own jobs with their own fleets. I see the trend in the future with nothing but I/O's in large markets getting their jobs from brokers. Most of these brokers will be former large fleet owners that see the profitability in not having the overhead of a large fleet. This could benefit good chauffeurs that will control their own car and work as much as they want or as little as they want.
    This is understood & in fact regardless what name they want to assign they're operating as semi-quasi travel agents with the ICs being individual motor carriers.

    Using Computer Car as an example:

    "Four years later, they started Computer Car with six vehicles. Today, Computer Car, now Valera Global, operates 200 vehicles in the New York area"

    This reading from a LCT advertising clearly suggests that CC has a stable of 200 vehicles. Is this a misleading statement whereas one would think that CC is a large Operator?

    For Operators running their own vehicles this clearly can be a great selling tool for use against these "brokers" also.
    Airport Limo Service Spring Hill, Brooksville, Citrus County FL
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    Gunny, you are correct. One of the problems with the LCT top 100 is the clarification of how the fleet numbers are compiled. I think that the begining intent was to profile operators that purchased vehicles for their fleet. I think it was an idea to inform other operators of what they could do as far as expansion to their business. Because the numbers of fleet size numbers is unclear of how this is calculated, who knows..........

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    Super Moderator gunny's Avatar
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    Again what got me going on this was advertisement received from LCT concerning the LCT Eastern conference & I was reading through it & Computer Car stuck out. On a whim I brought up the TLC site & checked to see if CC was listed as a Base for starters & from there could find out how many cars in their stable. Can't find them on the base so therefore no base number to check permitted vehicles. Now as a CYA i must point out, CC can be physically based outside of NYC & therefore not operating a NYC base & even have their own cars.

    There are large operators on the base listing & therefore verifying vehicle count is easy as well as if the vehicles are registered under the company or indivuals indicating ICs.

    Here are a few that many will recognize. Those marked with * indicates ICs for the vehicle count:
    DavEl 100
    Carey* 229
    Capricorn 49
    CLS* 91
    Music Express 82
    Empire 337

    So regardless of if owning the fleet or using IC's, these companies are licensed with the TLC as Limousine Operators.
    Airport Limo Service Spring Hill, Brooksville, Citrus County FL
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    Originally posted by Wade Randolph:
    Gunny the trend now is to be a "broker". Most of the large operators now get 30% or more of their revenues from being a booker or broker. This trend will continue to grow because operators make more money off brokered jobs than their own jobs with their own fleets. I see the trend in the future with nothing but I/O's in large markets getting their jobs from brokers. Most of these brokers will be former large fleet owners that see the profitability in not having the overhead of a large fleet. This could benefit good chauffeurs that will control their own car and work as much as they want or as little as they want.
    Aren't taxi cab companies kinda operated like this? They do own the vehicles, but they are much cheaper than limos, and with the rent they are bringing in every month basically buys two cars, so they really don't owe anything in the event that they did shut down, they would just liquidate the fleet. The drivers work when they want and are dispatched from a central location.

    Don't you think that this will lead to a degradation of customer service?

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    Super Moderator gunny's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Limo Insurance King:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wade Randolph:
    Gunny the trend now is to be a "broker". Most of the large operators now get 30% or more of their revenues from being a booker or broker. This trend will continue to grow because operators make more money off brokered jobs than their own jobs with their own fleets. I see the trend in the future with nothing but I/O's in large markets getting their jobs from brokers. Most of these brokers will be former large fleet owners that see the profitability in not having the overhead of a large fleet. This could benefit good chauffeurs that will control their own car and work as much as they want or as little as they want.
    Aren't taxi cab companies kinda operated like this? They do own the vehicles, but they are much cheaper than limos, and with the rent they are bringing in every month basically buys two cars, so they really don't owe anything in the event that they did shut down, they would just liquidate the fleet. The drivers work when they want and are dispatched from a central location.

    Don't you think that this will lead to a degradation of customer service? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Cabbies many times owns the vehicles & leases them out to drivers. Brokers own a computer & phone & that's about it.

    Prime example is a complaint filed against Nationwide in the Consumer Forum. There is even a link that by all indications presents this company as a limousine service. They claim to be "Ground Transportation Specialist". With a 212 area code, this is a NYC based business with no registration with the TLC. Who holds them accountable for failure to perform?

    If I was competing in a market as such with my own fleet, I would advertise:

    Our Reservationist
    Our Dispatchers
    Our Vehicles
    Our Chauffeurs
    Our Responsibility

    You can use this Scott, no problem!
    Airport Limo Service Spring Hill, Brooksville, Citrus County FL
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    Guess you could say I have a fleet of nearly 100 Buses since I broker for several Bus operators. In reality all I have is a Telephone and a yellow pages ad.
    David E. Merrill

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    Senior Member Limo Padawan Dave M's Avatar
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    Perhaps CC is a franchised operation.

    As I read through the LCT East bios I found this:


    Rod Barfield
    Valera Global (formerly Computer Car)

    In his role as President of Valera Global, Rod oversees all dispatch and chauffeur operations including franchise and chauffeur recruitment, training, supervision and fleet maintenance.


    I think the key word in this bio is "franchise." It's very possible that Valera Global has franchise agreements with numerous operators in the tri-state area. If this is the case, they may be including their franchisees' vehicles as part of their fleet.

    In this situation, a few operators may share a name, but it's still a huge misrepresentation of fleet size. This is the equivalent of including affiliates and farm-outs as part of a base fleet.

    As stated earlier " X amount that he/she operates is what is under the physical control of the operator." This is the only way to correctly assess a fleet.

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    Dave, if this is so, I have an infinite amount of equipment! I am the LARGEST operator anywhere. LOL !!!


    How stupid is that!

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    "Four years later, they started Computer Car with six vehicles. Today, Computer Car, now Valera Global, operates 200 vehicles in the New York area

    That is it, lets all move to NYC where we can 10000000% our business and fleet.

    Well about about doing affliated work. Every limo companys says that they have cars in all major cities around the world.

    I wonder if that counts as part of your fleet even though i use the guys in a different city only twice a year.

  12. #12
    Super Moderator gunny's Avatar
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    Verified CC (Valera) in NYC. They hold a Black Car base license with over 200 IC's placed under their base with names such as:
    Alexa Ent
    Meadowbrook Ent
    Rocky Ridge Inc
    Night Owl Trans
    D&A Trans
    Parkway Trans
    Classy Limo Svc
    Pelican Ent
    Oasis Ent
    Angelmae Travel
    First Choice Int
    (numerous individual owner operators)

    These are the Operators, not CC (Valera). They (operators) walk, no cars in the stable.

    Numerous licensing authorities responding to request submitted on the reported Big Operators in the Nation. Some very interesting results to be published when all compiled.
    Airport Limo Service Spring Hill, Brooksville, Citrus County FL
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    Super Moderator gunny's Avatar
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    In the September 2007 issue of LCT Luff does a feature article on the "Growth Trends Of The Top 100 Fleets". Yes Jim we know that you just took the numbers presented & didn't do any research verifying what the Operators are presenting to the Industry as their size. This is not, I repeat "is not" a slam against Big Dawg as the research into the numbers has been going on for a couple of months & now is prime time to reveal what the research has played out so far.

    Research methodology: We went right to the VFH licensing departments (state & local) & simply asked how many vehicles does a particular operator have licensed and/or how many permits are issued. Where sites list each vehicle & owner such as the NYCTLC site, only vehicles registered to the operator were counted.

    Sorry guys but having 200 ICs who own their own vehicles does not count as an operators fleet size & placing such in fleet totals is misleading bullshit. LCT may buy it, but we shall not!

    I am not going to list each individual source (PUC,DMV,TLC etc.). If someone wants to know a particular source let me know & I will post it.

    Listed will be Operator followed by LCT No. then research No.

    Valera Global 211/0
    Diva 206/79
    LeGrande Affaire 160/56
    Bauer's 144/79
    Aventura 119/48
    Farrels 105/82
    Rudy's 103/104
    O'Hare 100/71
    Hy's 94/66
    Wynne 90/20
    London Town Cars 77/76
    A Premier 67/43
    Capricorn 65/49
    VIP 63/63
    Smart Cars 63/0
    Lifestyle 63/49
    Corporate Connection 62/11
    El Paseo 61/39
    American Limos 59/19
    Above All 54/17
    BKTT 50/35
    Westwind 53/8
    Action 48/30
    Reliable 64/53
    Tennessee 70/34
    Eagle 81/71
    Airport Limo Service Spring Hill, Brooksville, Citrus County FL
    http://gunnysairportlimo.com/tampa_a...ce_spring_hill

  14. #14
    Senior Member Wade Randolph's Avatar
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    Originally posted by gunny:
    In the September 2007 issue of LCT Luff does a feature article on the "Growth Trends Of The Top 100 Fleets". Yes Jim we know that you just took the numbers presented & didn't do any research verifying what the Operators are presenting to the Industry as their size. This is not, I repeat "is not" a slam against Big Dawg as the research into the numbers has been going on for a couple of months & now is prime time to reveal what the research has played out so far.

    Research methodology: We went right to the licensing departments state & local & simply asked how many vehicles does a particular operator have licensed and/or how many permits are issued. Where sites list each vehicle & owner such as the NYTLC site, only vehicles registered to the operator were counted.

    Sorry guys but having 200 ICs who own their own vehicles does not count as an operators fleet size & placing such in fleet totals is misleading bullshit. LCT may buy it, but we shall not!

    I am not going to list each individual source (PUC,DMV,TLC etc.). If someone wants to know a particular source let me know & I will post it.

    Listed will be Operator followed by LCT No. then research No.

    Valera Global 211/0
    Diva 206/79
    LeGrande Affaire 160/56
    Bauer's 144/79
    Aventura 119/48
    Farrels 105/82
    Rudy's 103/104
    O'Hare 100/71
    Hy's 94/66
    Wynne 90/20
    London Town Cars 77/76
    A Premier 67/43
    Capricorn 65/49
    VIP 63/63
    Smart Cars 63/0
    Lifestyle 63/49
    Corporate Connection 62/11
    El Paseo 61/39
    American Limos 59/19
    Above All 54/17
    BKTT 50/35
    Westwind 53/8
    Action 48/30
    Reliable 64/53
    Tennessee 70/34
    Eagle 81/71
    OMG I can't believe they would lie that much. Well on the other hand I should have expected it. This industry has always had a "how many cars do you have" mentality.

  15. #15
    Super Moderator gunny's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Wade Randolph:

    OMG I can't believe they would lie that much. Well on the other hand I should have expected it. This industry has always had a "how many cars do you have" mentality.
    AKA "Limo Envy"

    September's LCT also ran an omission from the top 100, West Suburban Traveler's Limousine Inc. out of Illinois claiming a fleet of 135. Did a check on the good ole 5990 vehicle Illinois VFH listing & no WST! Paid a visit to their website & there in B&W, "Each vehicle is independently owned & operated". Bottom line, there was no omission!

    Just another layer of bullshit presented to the Industry by the "Lacking Credible Truth" folks.
    Airport Limo Service Spring Hill, Brooksville, Citrus County FL
    http://gunnysairportlimo.com/tampa_a...ce_spring_hill

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