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Thread: Is LCT'S 2008 "Fact Book" Factual?

  1. #31
    Super Moderator Limo Scene's Avatar
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    Dave,

    I don't take it personal. What bugs me is the spouting year after year with no substantial evidence to prove either magazine is that far off in their ESTIMATE.

    I understand journalistic integrity after 4 years of high school journalism and two years on the university newspaper staff as editor in chief. I don't think there has ever been an effort to hide numbers, be involved in some conspiracy, try to skew the numbers to make the NLA look better etc. which are really insane arguments. I mean it has always been clear that Gunny hates LCT. There is nothing that LCT could ever do to change that fact. I truly believe that has something to do with me as when I wrote for Digest he had no complaints on this forum and once I moved over to LCT he began to bash the magazine and me.

    A few years ago I was part of an LCT team that verified insurance policies for accuracy. A daunting task. For each operator that reported they had X amount of cars, it was my job to verify with their insurance carrier how many cars were actually insured under a given policy. I can tell you with all my heart the effort was certainly there to legitimize the process and great effort at a great amount of money was put forth.

    This numbers rage, Redondo Beach school of numbers etc. has been going on for years. If they are so wrong someone should dispel it by producing their own report and cite exactly how they arrived at their number including documentation. Such as the inclusion of the list of operators from the California PUC. Dean gave me that list once. The list itself has such things as "suspended" or "revoked" or "surrendered" as well as Active status. So, shall we count the ones as "suspended" as they are technically still licensed but just suspended.

    But then, guess what? Tomorrow that number will change because somebody didn't renew their Workers comp insurance or didn't file a PUCTRA report or who knows what.

    Like I said, it is virtually impossible for any entity or individual to say with certainty how many operators exist on a given day.

    But, if someone put together a comprehensive report gathered from the licensing authority of each state showing every single licensed company with a summary page after each state that says:

    Alabama
    Active: 392 Companies
    Suspended: 23 Companies

    Then a summary page after all states listing state by state the number of active licenses and suspended licenses we would have something to talk about. No one has done that and I have no desire to do as I simply don't care how many operators there are. But, those that are passionate about the issue should devote their time to compiling such a report.

    Even then, the number would not be definitive because the project could not be completed in a single day and there are a handful of states that have no regulatory authority over limousines so those companies would just not be counted.

    There is simply no way to ever know for sure and if there is, for the love of God, put up the report or...........well, you know, but my Mom says you should never say those two words so I won't.
    Jim A. Luff
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    Limousine Scene - An Award Winning Company Since 1990
    Bakersfield, CA
    Limousines, Sedans, Vans, Charter Buses, Limo-Buses, Wheelchair Vans www.limousinescene.com

  2. #32

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    Originally posted by gunny:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wade Randolph:
    Go to this site to see my point www.lindseylimo.com Michael is a good guy and a good operator, but really the caption is misleading to anyone but us savy in the business.
    How about this one
    Greene Classic #1 in America

    Shit, I thought my Buddy Billy of Clique Limo was voted #1 in 2003? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    There is a big company here in san diego(I like them and just think this is funny) that advertises "Voted best limousine company by so and so 2003". What happened to 2004-2008?

    As a joke, I was going to start advertising "Limo Kings, voted #1 limousine service by san diego bartenders". Which is true of course. Everytime I ask a bartender which limo company is the best and their favorite, they say mine.

    But it's easy to be cheesy, so I havn't given in yet. I say yet because it would still be pretty funny.
    Tough times don't last. Tough people do.

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  3. #33

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    The difference is that Digest's circulation is meticulously researched while the vendors have seen your numbers as pure hackwork for years. They snicker behind your back, you know. The 1995 Fact Book mysteriously redid the figures of the 1989 Factbook relative to the number of operators. Do you think you own the industry ? Digest is certifying their numbers and you would do well to quit publishing anything to do with numbers. The Top 100 is always wrong and operatives have been vocal about the process when they see numbers that are clearly a figment of someone's imagination for a service in their local market. There is a professional template for running circulation in this country. It is very clear that you don't have it. The sad thing about this is that I still love LCT and always will.
    Originally posted by Limo Scene:
    Dave,

    I don't take it personal. What bugs me is the spouting year after year with no substantial evidence to prove either magazine is that far off in their ESTIMATE.

    I understand journalistic integrity after 4 years of high school journalism and two years on the university newspaper staff as editor in chief. I don't think there has ever been an effort to hide numbers, be involved in some conspiracy, try to skew the numbers to make the NLA look better etc. which are really insane arguments. I mean it has always been clear that Gunny hates LCT. There is nothing that LCT could ever do to change that fact. I truly believe that has something to do with me as when I wrote for Digest he had no complaints on this forum and once I moved over to LCT he began to bash the magazine and me.

    A few years ago I was part of an LCT team that verified insurance policies for accuracy. A daunting task. For each operator that reported they had X amount of cars, it was my job to verify with their insurance carrier how many cars were actually insured under a given policy. I can tell you with all my heart the effort was certainly there to legitimize the process and great effort at a great amount of money was put forth.

    This numbers rage, Redondo Beach school of numbers etc. has been going on for years. If they are so wrong someone should dispel it by producing their own report and cite exactly how they arrived at their number including documentation. Such as the inclusion of the list of operators from the California PUC. Dean gave me that list once. The list itself has such things as "suspended" or "revoked" or "surrendered" as well as Active status. So, shall we count the ones as "suspended" as they are technically still licensed but just suspended.

    But then, guess what? Tomorrow that number will change because somebody didn't renew their Workers comp insurance or didn't file a PUCTRA report or who knows what.

    Like I said, it is virtually impossible for any entity or individual to say with certainty how many operators exist on a given day.

    But, if someone put together a comprehensive report gathered from the licensing authority of each state showing every single licensed company with a summary page after each state that says:

    Alabama
    Active: 392 Companies
    Suspended: 23 Companies

    Then a summary page after all states listing state by state the number of active licenses and suspended licenses we would have something to talk about. No one has done that and I have no desire to do as I simply don't care how many operators there are. But, those that are passionate about the issue should devote their time to compiling such a report.

    Even then, the number would not be definitive because the project could not be completed in a single day and there are a handful of states that have no regulatory authority over limousines so those companies would just not be counted.

    There is simply no way to ever know for sure and if there is, for the love of God, put up the report or...........well, you know, but my Mom says you should never say those two words so I won't.
    Dean Schuler

  4. #34
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    Jim,

    I am more than pleased to know that you are one of the LCT people who verify the fleet size of Limousine Companies that apply for “Operator of the Year”. As you know in many past years, many operators did add numbers to their fleet size to try to win the Industry awards. One huge problem thou, you can’t always trust insurance agents to report the truth! They are in business too! Applying for an award should be based on active running vehicles only! I always said it should be based on Merit because that is what makes a company great! But it’s not.

    The size of a company is really no big thing! If you have the credit, you can buy anything! Including awards. I know that the big issue for many years has been the Top 100 Limousine Operators in the country. On an ongoing basis, more than 20% the Top 100 has been found to be way off in number count. Not by a car or two Jim, this is no secret! Operators in cities who knows and works with their competitors, know well of their fleet size by a car or two. When the numbers of an Operators fleet size is published not even close, the local operators who know complain! I have heard it more times than you know. I know one operator for 2007 for a fact (inside information) his numbers were off by more than 15 vehicles and if the real numbers were reported; he would have not been on the list at all!

    This is where the problems begin with the LCT, and this is what everyone is complaining about! This disqualifies Operators that have applied that might have made the list. That’s not right.

  5. #35
    Super Moderator gunny's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Limo Scene:

    I mean it has always been clear that Gunny hates LCT. There is nothing that LCT could ever do to change that fact. I truly believe that has something to do with me as when I wrote for Digest he had no complaints on this forum and once I moved over to LCT he began to bash the magazine and me.
    Don't flatter yourself ole pudgy one. A sequence of events that I have no inclination to repeat in print but is contained within my many posts that took me from NLA Membership to hating the NLA to targeting the bullshit that the NLA had its very own propaganda rag (LCT) print. As my attacks have become less frequent is in part, as I believe, a direct result that LCT/NLA knows I will call them out on any bullshit they print.

    LCT as proven by the Herring incident wants 110% control of what is placed before the Industry's too trusting eyeballs & when they loss control of the Holier Than Thou Herring eulogy which resulted in the call by you professionals to blackball a couple of individuals who may or may not have decided to set the record a little straighter, LCT in its jouralistic professionalism found it more convenient to delete the entire blog & reposted it asking for no comments. Can we say control freaks?

    Your tangles with me as recorded on this forum has been mostly caused by you stepping into the line of fire in protectionism of your rag. I'm in a farking war if you haven't heard & I have proven time & time again through research that the enemy is directly linked to the NLA & TLPA leadership. Of course yourself & others would never respond or comment to the B & W evidence & facts I have presented over the years out of fear that Sara & Co would not approve. Nor will your rag that supposedly represents the Industry would hold any of the individuals who violate the very code of ethics that the NLA spits out to the public accountable for injury caused to operators not within the Bobit elite circle.

    You, yourself admits that you have had to verify the vehicle count submitted by operators. My question is why do you have to verify the numbers that is provided by mostly NLA members if its membership is composed of such honorable people? What a crock of shit. But just as you validate those numbers & hold those operators accountable, others & I will continue to hold LCT accountable & I think they know it.

    My accountability approach with LCT has nothing to do with Luff & I have hardly ever even responded to articles you have written minus my ribbing about the "eating your way to success".

    Can I cite instances where the NLA & LCT deflates numbers & then inflates other numbers to suit their purpose? Hell yeah! But, some things are just not worth the effort as the battle moves into another phase & more important things need to be addressed. Besides, kicking LCT & the "when was the last time they accomplished anything" NLA around lately is about as much fun as kicking a dead dog.

    Do I hate LCT? Yeah, but not as much as I hate the NLA & TLPA.
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  6. #36
    Super Moderator gunny's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Wade Randolph:
    Gunny how about this:

    "Voted best chauffeurs 2007"
    "Voted best vehicles 2007"
    "Voted best owner 2007"
    "voted best office 2007"

    Hell the list could go on forever!
    Here's another:
    We Are #1 In The Nation!!!

    Didn't Aventura get called out on the number of vehicles they reported last year????
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  7. #37
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    Originally posted by Limo Scene:
    Even then, the number would not be definitive because the project could not be completed in a single day and there are a handful of states that have no regulatory authority over limousines so those companies would just not be counted.
    The Democrats did this and they didn't have much trouble doing it.

  8. #38

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    Luff speaks nonsense. We mapped the industry long ago for optimal circulation accuracy. My first love LCT-has been producing hackwork numbers for years in the opinion of the vendors and industry researchers and myself-and I am along with RICHARD RAMIS, the ranking chauffeured transportation trade researcher. This is very hard to say as I admire the BOBITS & their personnel greatly for their industry contributions.
    Originally posted by Limo Insurance King:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Limo Scene:
    Even then, the number would not be definitive because the project could not be completed in a single day and there are a handful of states that have no regulatory authority over limousines so those companies would just not be counted.
    The Democrats did this and they didn't have much trouble doing it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Dean Schuler

  9. #39
    Super Moderator Limo Scene's Avatar
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    So Dean,

    Define "We" - who is this "we" that "mapped the circulation" and what the hell does that mean?

    Are we talking about counting operators to know how many magazines to print to make sure everyone has their own copy of an industry magazine?

    I mean, we all know that no one has to pay for Digest as they send it to everyone for free. Only boneheads actually pay for it. I have received it month after month for 18 years and never ONCE paid a dime to them. So, are you saying that you counted operators to know how many free copies to print for circulation purposes?

    And where are your numbers that "WE" put together over a decade ago. I seriously doubt anything you counted years ago would have ANY relevance TODAY. Do you remember 9/11 Dean? Do you remember what it did to the industry. Many, many operators went belly up. How about Katrina? A little closer to home for you. How many operators never came back? You get my point? Times changes. Move with it!

    Your old school numbers flew right out the window dude when the industry rolled over and played dead for nearly a year.

    I have been on this forum since 2001 or seven years and while you have always argued about the numbers, not once in nearly a decade have you dispelled anything or any fact about the count. You boo hoo about it every year but never get off your ass to do a CURRENT research project to prove anything except resting on some count you did a quarter of a century ago and spouting on the forum after too much Johnny Walker or Chevis!

    There is no way you could have possibly counted every single limousine company in the last decade. Perhaps in the 70's when you did your little count that was possible but I stand by the fact that it cannot be done today as an exact count. We are in a recession and I guarantee you someone will close their doors this week.

    It is now time to put up or finally shut up about this subject that you have worn out like a well played fiddle. Show your results you spew about TODAY. Show how you researched it in the last two years because any results beyond two years doesn't matter today and is not even close to accurate.

    All talk - no action!

    SHOW US YOUR RESULTS STATE BY STATE.

    Speaking of Richard Ramis, has ANYONE on this forum ever heard of him? Ever see him at a trade show? Ever hear him speak to the industry at a trade show?

    I am looking for simply yes or no answers from the members of this forum on this question about Richard Ramis.

    Right.........I believe at some point in life we all become a "has been".

    Today the industry leaders are the likes of Scott Solombrino, Tommy Mazza, Dawson Rutter, Richard Kane and George Jacobs. This is not to say that I support all of these men or even believe in these men but it is what it is and they are who they are and they are all doing better than you and I so I consider them to be leaders as I sure want to follow in their footsteps and have over 100 vehicles and have multi-million dollar revenues instead just one million.

    Let's pay attention to what people in the business today are saying. No one cares how things were 25 years ago! Thanks for the blood pressure boost on a Monday morning.......

    Here we go....................
    Jim A. Luff
    Forum Moderator
    Contributing Editor & Consultant - LCT Magazine

    Limousine Scene - An Award Winning Company Since 1990
    Bakersfield, CA
    Limousines, Sedans, Vans, Charter Buses, Limo-Buses, Wheelchair Vans www.limousinescene.com

  10. #40

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    The May Publishers Page Limousine Digest spells it all out . Your hand is non-existent in this game and you don't flatter yourself by acting like a total fool.
    Originally posted by Limo Scene:
    So Dean,

    Define "We" - who is this "we" that "mapped the circulation" and what the hell does that mean?

    Are we talking about counting operators to know how many magazines to print to make sure everyone has their own copy of an industry magazine?

    I mean, we all know that no one has to pay for Digest as they send it to everyone for free. Only boneheads actually pay for it. I have received it month after month for 18 years and never ONCE paid a dime to them. So, are you saying that you counted operators to know how many free copies to print for circulation purposes?

    And where are your numbers that "WE" put together over a decade ago. I seriously doubt anything you counted years ago would have ANY relevance TODAY. Do you remember 9/11 Dean? Do you remember what it did to the industry. Many, many operators went belly up. How about Katrina? A little closer to home for you. How many operators never came back? You get my point? Times changes. Move with it!

    Your old school numbers flew right out the window dude when the industry rolled over and played dead for nearly a year.

    I have been on this forum since 2001 or seven years and while you have always argued about the numbers, not once in nearly a decade have you dispelled anything or any fact about the count. You boo hoo about it every year but never get off your ass to do a CURRENT research project to prove anything except resting on some count you did a quarter of a century ago and spouting on the forum after too much Johnny Walker or Chevis!

    There is no way you could have possibly counted every single limousine company in the last decade. Perhaps in the 70's when you did your little count that was possible but I stand by the fact that it cannot be done today as an exact count. We are in a recession and I guarantee you someone will close their doors this week.

    It is now time to put up or finally shut up about this subject that you have worn out like a well played fiddle. Show your results you spew about TODAY. Show how you researched it in the last two years because any results beyond two years doesn't matter today and is not even close to accurate.

    All talk - no action!

    SHOW US YOUR RESULTS STATE BY STATE.

    Speaking of Richard Ramis, has ANYONE on this forum ever heard of him? Ever see him at a trade show? Ever hear him speak to the industry at a trade show?

    I am looking for simply yes or no answers from the members of this forum on this question about Richard Ramis.

    Right.........I believe at some point in life we all become a "has been".

    Today the industry leaders are the likes of Scott Solombrino, Tommy Mazza, Dawson Rutter, Richard Kane and George Jacobs. This is not to say that I support all of these men or even believe in these men but it is what it is and they are who they are and they are all doing better than you and I so I consider them to be leaders as I sure want to follow in their footsteps and have over 100 vehicles and have multi-million dollar revenues instead just one million.

    Let's pay attention to what people in the business today are saying. No one cares how things were 25 years ago! Thanks for the blood pressure boost on a Monday morning.......

    Here we go....................
    Dean Schuler

  11. #41
    Super Moderator gunny's Avatar
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Limo Scene:
    Today the industry leaders are the likes of Scott Solombrino, Tommy Mazza, Dawson Rutter, Richard Kane and George Jacobs. ......../QUOTE]

    What % of the folks on these Boards have ever heard of these people no less the estimated 10-15k operators in the Nation. We have some of these so called leaders of the limo industry operating within a very narrow scope whose business survival relies on the birds flying, 1 who makes a living running seminars (those who are good at their profession - do, those who aren't good - teach), & a glorified taxi baron is included.

    If Leadership of this Industry is graded upon influencing others to join forces & fight for common goals, the Leadership rates a big fat "F". For an Industry that strokes itself on being the conveyers of the rich, famous & powerful elite, it sure as hell is inept regardless of how much self esteem stroking they want to do.

    As I stated before, bitching about the inaction of the NLA is about as much fun as kicking a dead dog around lately.

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  12. #42
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    Jim, Dude! Does you diaper needs to be changed? Take a pill and relax! Take your blood pressure ….don’t have an aneurism.
    ________________________________________________
    Quote: Limo Scene
    I mean, we all know that no one has to pay for Digest as they send it to everyone for free. Only boneheads actually pay for it. I have received it month after month for 18 years and never ONCE paid a dime to them. So, are you saying that you counted operators to know how many free copies to print for circulation purposes?
    ________________________________________________

    First, you are receiving a complementary copy of the Limousine Digest Magazine because of your past contributions to the publication. It seems to me that your appreciation for the magazine has no value to you. Your statement about it being free is not true. You should not assume something that is not fact. You know Dean or myself can fix your complementary copy and can be stopped if you wish.

    ________________________________________________
    Quote: Limo Scene
    You boo hoo about it every year but never get off your ass to do a CURRENT research project to prove anything except resting on some count you did a quarter of a century ago and spouting on the forum after too much Johnny Walker or Chevis!
    _______________________________________________
    Someone’s consumption of a beverage? What are you thinking! This statement lacks class (NONE)

    ________________________________________________
    Quote: Limo Scene
    Today the industry leaders are the likes of Scott Solombrino, Tommy Mazza, Dawson Rutter, Richard Kane and George Jacobs
    _______________________________________________
    Very few operators will ever become the size of these operations. You can not judge this Industry simply on these few large Operators. With no disrespect for any of these people, I and I know them well and call them my friends, if this is the way you see it, then this would mean you are a pollywog in the Industry as we know it!

    ________________________________________________
    Quote: Limo Scene
    Let's pay attention to what people in the business today are saying. No one cares how things were 25 years ago!
    _______________________________________________
    You need to know your History to know where you came from is to know where you are going! Maybe you should ask around the LCT to find out who Richard Ramis is!
    _______________________________________________
    Quote: Limo Scene
    All talk - no action!

    SHOW US YOUR RESULTS STATE BY STATE
    _______________________________________________
    Jim, you know better than this! Dean spends many hours researching the numbers from states and has the facts. You don’t do this, so how would you know?

  13. #43
    Super Moderator Limo Scene's Avatar
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    Blah, blah, blah.......

    I'm sorry, I meant to say I was looking for legitimate responders not Dean's side-kick. Again, where are the numbers???? Who is WE? Answer the question Dean and quit pulling a Hillary Clinton run-around answer that says nothing.

    I KNOW who Richard Ramis is. I also know who George Washington is. Niether have anything to do with the period of time we live in TODAY.

    I don't need my diaper changed but I would be happy to hand you a tissue Dave - seems you have something brown on your nose from following too close behind Dean. I guess he stopped and you didn't anticipate it.

    Don't be an idiot Dave, I wrote for Digest in early 2000. I was getting my FREE copy of Digest LONG before that and it continued after that. It has nothing to do with my contributions. I couldn't care less if you guys cut me off or not. And, Dave, your opinion of me is the least of my worries as I know the opinion of you by many. You had a little limo company and you couldn't keep it going. You have had job after job trying to keep yourself in the business but really you are merely on the sidelines looking in. I mean, if you are so good.... what happened at Executive? What happened at The Wynn? What happened with the concierge/meeting planner job, what happened to your little business of selling hats and umbrellas? I have been doing the same thing, year after year with success and you, you can't succeed at anything you try but yet you so desperately want to stay a part of the industry that you volunteer to contribute articles to digest.

    As I said, here we go! The gloves are off and I am not holding back. PUT UP THE NUMBERS! SHOW ME THE NUMBERS! For the record, I don't give a rat's ass about them but for the love of God we need to put this subject to rest. You want to ask me about having my diaper changed?
    Look out cause I am just getting started. I have had quite enough being kicked around. It's personal now.

    I run a profitable limousine business that has been on the grow since the day we opened the doors. I write for a magazine because they pay me well to share how we took a one car company in Bakersfield, CA and grew it to more than a million dollar a year business in Bakersfield, California. If you don't like me, so be it. I have enough friends I don't care but don't bash me just because I asked for the numbers to be posted here and that we quit hearing about 25 year old data. I don't deserve that for merely asking for proof.
    Jim A. Luff
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    Contributing Editor & Consultant - LCT Magazine

    Limousine Scene - An Award Winning Company Since 1990
    Bakersfield, CA
    Limousines, Sedans, Vans, Charter Buses, Limo-Buses, Wheelchair Vans www.limousinescene.com

  14. #44
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    Jim,

    Your agenda consist of denial and character assassinations. I suggest we deal with facts. Review your complementary Limousine Digest Industry guide for the facts.

    David Hartson
    Limousine Digest
    West Coast Editor

  15. #45
    Super Moderator gunny's Avatar
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    Just another year of LCT putting those Factual Stats together!

    And The Number Of Operators For New Yawk Is
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