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Thread: Independant Contractors

  1. #16
    Member Limo Padawan
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    Equipment resource manager huh, hmmmmm.............does she like flowers?

    Steve

  2. #17
    Super Moderator Limo Scene's Avatar
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    Um, she does like flowers.....but for some reason Cal Fire won't let her accept them from anyone. I am really not sure what Cal Fire has against flowers, dinners or other gifts.
    Jim A. Luff
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  3. #18
    Junior Member Limo Padawan
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    Those are nice links, however, you do notice that those IC's were not given their work a day ahead of time. They were on the on-call system. What about those so-called Independent Contractors who are forbidden from working for any other companies, don't own the cars they drive, must wear a tie provided by the company, can't come and go as they please, and are punished if they turn down a job? They sound like employees to me and the current lawsuit involving an important player in Massachusetts will most likely result in that "important player" losing a lot of money.

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    Super Moderator Limo Scene's Avatar
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    Yuppers! Hit the nail on the head there. Someone said it earlier - walks like a duck, quacks like a duck....must be a duck! I spoke with Mark Freeark from TIB Insurance yesterday concerning one of my consulting clients. Mark said, from an insurance standpoint, an IC must have their own business license to truly be an IC. It could be a name like, Joe's Driving Services or similar but it must be it's own business entity. Never thought about it from that angle.
    Jim A. Luff
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  5. #20
    Junior Member Limo Padawan
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    This business owner employs ONLY people deemed Independent Contractors, yet all of the rules I mentioned apply to the so-called I/Cs. They also have no worker's comp insurance in place to cover I/Cs, only their office staff. It will be interesting to see if this particular business owner takes the lawsuit all the way to court, and the resulting outcome. He is supposed to represent ethics in the New England Livery arena, yet is the biggest violator of them all. The Massachusetts law clearly states what an I/C is and these folks are not I/Cs. It was all just a means of not paying state and federal taxes, hourly wages and a lot of overtime. His drivers can spend 15 hours a day stuck in one of his cars, yet only make $90.00 for the entire day because the 3 jobs were spread out and had a 4-hour gap between runs.

  6. #21
    Senior Member Cedar Mill Limousine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmitchell55 View Post
    Those are nice links, however, you do notice that those IC's were not given their work a day ahead of time. They were on the on-call system. What about those so-called Independent Contractors who are forbidden from working for any other companies, don't own the cars they drive, must wear a tie provided by the company, can't come and go as they please, and are punished if they turn down a job? They sound like employees to me and the current lawsuit involving an important player in Massachusetts will most likely result in that "important player" losing a lot of money.
    You hit a couple points on the head--others I believe you could be wrong (on a fed standard, not state since I am not familiar with Mass. law).

    Quote Originally Posted by bmitchell55 View Post
    What about those so-called Independent Contractors who are forbidden from working for any other companies
    AGREED!

    Quote Originally Posted by bmitchell55 View Post
    can't come and go as they please, and are punished if they turn down a job?
    AGREED!

    Quote Originally Posted by bmitchell55 View Post
    not given their work a day ahead of time. They were on the on-call system. don't own the cars they drive
    These two points I don't necessarily agree with. Why does an IC have to be on the on call system? I do not know a lot of people that accept jobs at the last minute--I would prefer some notice if I am going to work tomorrow. Also, the not owning their own cars...read the article again...I believe those chauffeurs did not own their cars either--unreasonable to expect everyone to own such expensive pieces of equipment. That is just how I have seen the research so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by bmitchell55 View Post
    must wear a tie provided by the company
    And I am not sure about this except I believe a dress code would be appropriate-just not sure how strict you would be able to go--I suppose you would have to consider all other points first and compare it to the spirit of the law (do you hire people to work on your house that wear red sauce stained white tank tops or someone that looks professional-why would you not do the same when hiring an IC to drive for you?)

    So I do believe the company in question should be in question...but you're remark about the links I posted should be revised.
    Last edited by Cedar Mill Limousine; October 25th, 2008 at 10:28 AM. Reason: added last paragraph
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  7. #22
    Junior Member Limo Padawan
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    Default Cedar Mill

    I believe the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania ruling was based in part on the driver's being on-call I/Cs, working on a first-come first-serve basis. Also, the Fed Ex employees who won their class action lawsuit based on whether or not they were actually I/Cs or employees was won partly on the basis of the employer REQUIRING a certain uniform. In both this limo company I am referring to and the Fed Ex suit, the uniforms were provided by the companies. The limo company in question provides their signature red tie. One can't wear any other red tie. I wholeheartedly agree with the idea of knowing what you're doing the next day as far as a start time goes, but this company provides the I/Cs with their entire days worth of work. Sometimes this results in the driver working 12-15 hours a day, but receiving pay for only the 3 or 4 runs they do. Where does the abuse factor start? Is it fair for a driver to be expected to work under these conditions or not receive any work? And if they opt not to work these hours or wear this tie, should they be denied work? Where does the fine line between I/C and employee stop and start? When does it become unethical to label employees as I/Cs just so you can skirt the tax, overtime, worker's comp, and benefits laws? By the way, I have been in this business for years and never encountered such, what I believe to be, blatant violations of the state and federal laws. Massachusetts has a 3-prong test to determine who is and is not an I/C and this company meets none of them. Page 3 of this PDF document discusses the 3-prong test:

    http://www.mass.gov/Cago/docs/Workpl...r_advisory.pdf

    I am posting this as an advisory to all limo companies working within the state of Massachusetts, and the people who run them, particularly those owners who are on the boards of certain associations that are supposedly the overseers of ethics within the industry.
    Last edited by bmitchell55; October 25th, 2008 at 11:32 AM.

  8. #23
    Senior Member Cedar Mill Limousine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmitchell55 View Post
    I believe the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania ruling was based in part on the driver's being on-call I/Cs, working on a first-come first-serve basis. Also, the Fed Ex employees who won their class action lawsuit based on whether or not they were actually I/Cs or employees was won partly on the basis of the employer REQUIRING a certain uniform. In both this limo company I am referring to and the Fed Ex suit, the uniforms were provided by the companies.
    There would have to be a little more research, but I believe it is not so much that it is about the last minute call-but the call itself. Insinuating that there is a question, "can/will you work on such day doing such jobs". Again the dress code--I believe the line might be drawn when getting super specific--but I believe the line is drawn when forced only to work for them. But of course how do you argue that? They can say they were not worked b/c they were not as good as others. AND THIS COULD BE TRUE--AND SHOULD BE ALLOWED!! Why should some shmo get as much work as someone that wants to be the best?? We all know who is moral and who is not--I believe the market can work it self out to a point. Some laws are around for a purpose, some laws are just socialist in nature, but since they were allowed to exist we will just have to do our best to obey them.
    Last edited by Cedar Mill Limousine; October 25th, 2008 at 12:06 PM. Reason: grammer
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  9. #24
    Junior Member Limo Padawan
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    Default Cedar Mill

    If you attempt to work for another limo company, you will be "fired" as an I/C from this particular company. You could be Chauffeur of the Month in October and fired in November for accepting work from another company. That's funny. How does a company that has no "employees" have a Chauffeur of the Month prize of $250.00? This company operates solely to make a ton of money for the owner while abusing the rights of the drivers. It will sort itself out in court and I'll be watching it carefully.

  10. #25
    Senior Member Cedar Mill Limousine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmitchell55 View Post
    If you attempt to work for another limo company, you will be "fired" as an I/C from this particular company. You could be Chauffeur of the Month in October and fired in November for accepting work from another company. That's funny. How does a company that has no "employees" have a Chauffeur of the Month prize of $250.00? This company operates solely to make a ton of money for the owner while abusing the rights of the drivers. It will sort itself out in court and I'll be watching it carefully.
    Like I said before, I don't know the specifics of this company you are referring to. I do not see what would be wrong with having an IC of the month reward.

    I was referring to your definitions of IC regarding the links I posted that you had issue with. This is a gray area (which the complexity of a capitalist market often brings) and is why there is often much discussion. There is nothing wrong with discussing such issues--that is how we all learn and not just pretend we know it all.

    I had remarked on another thread our troubles with the local BMV. So often people act like they know what they are talking about without knowing all the facts or taking into consideration the spirit of the law. It is so easy to go after the "man"--the big company that is making a ton of money and treating their employees like garbage. There must be some protection for employees so that we do not go back to the times of the slaughter houses and the mistreatment of their employees, BUT we also must be VERY careful that we do not end up as socialistic economy (which some might suggest that we are already there!!). If anyone thinks this would be good for our country please look at the countries that already have this type of economy. It is not good for anyone.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Limo Scene View Post
    Cedar, I can tell you for certain that the statement is b.s.

    As most know, like Dave Merrill, I am opposed to IC's in this business. But, you can indeed be an IC and not own your own car under a variety of circumstance. The IC can lease the car from the limo company on a daily/weekly/monthly basis. He can pimp himself out to drive for several limo companies as well as private parties who own their own chauffeur.

    The statement is off base and incorrect.
    Jim,
    I agree with you, but the government don't seem too. I recevied a $5000 fine because they said my drivers were employees and not IC's. I spent another $5000 in attorney fees and accountant fees and lost. We were forced to make everyone employees and not IC's. So what did I miss???

  12. #27
    Senior Member Cedar Mill Limousine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dream Limo View Post
    Jim,
    I agree with you, but the government don't seem too. I recevied a $5000 fine because they said my drivers were employees and not IC's. I spent another $5000 in attorney fees and accountant fees and lost. We were forced to make everyone employees and not IC's. So what did I miss???
    It is apparent that I do not have experience with any of this (just research), it really saddens me that the government has so much power. I assume you truly felt your guys/gals were IC's? They could decline work from you? They could use your vehicles to make their own runs with no money going to you except your agreed lease for the vehicle?
    Last edited by Cedar Mill Limousine; October 25th, 2008 at 03:40 PM. Reason: added "gals" to to sentence
    Rich Rottier
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  13. #28
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    "BUT we also must be VERY careful that we do not end up as socialistic economy (which some might suggest that we are already there!!). "

    Yep, it happened when the Treasury bought into the banks. Government ownership in financial institutions is the pinnacle of socialism.

  14. #29
    Junior Member Limo Padawan
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    "I assume you truly felt your guys/gals were IC's? They could decline work from you? They could use your vehicles to make their own runs with no money going to you except your agreed lease for the vehicle?"

    The company I referred to in Massachusetts pays their I/Cs 17.00 for each trip plus an 18% gratuity no matter WHAT the price of the run. Does that sound like a true I/C to you?
    There is no leasing of vehicles, either. Everything is owned by the company.

  15. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cedar Mill Limousine View Post
    It is apparent that I do not have experience with any of this (just research), it really saddens me that the government has so much power. I assume you truly felt your guys/gals were IC's? They could decline work from you? They could use your vehicles to make their own runs with no money going to you except your agreed lease for the vehicle?
    It saddens me to. I love my country, but the government is pretty pathetic sometimes. I like to think that most of the government horror stories I here are part of the minority, but it really scares me.
    Tough times don't last. Tough people do.

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