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Thread: NLA - Love It or Leave It?

  1. #16
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ragu:
    Jim I first have to say I don't think Bob Scott is doing that bad considering he had very little or no knowledge of the Limo industry.
    As far as elections, the NLA needs to have more people looking after the smaller companies.
    The big companies don't give a rats ass about about them, as I said in other forums they need directors that are not scared to speak up.
    The ITLA seems to do well without a management company and also without endorsing trade members, they just have trade members.
    I would like to know how much Curt Andrews had to give the NLA to get where he is, and what is his stake at this, where is it you want to go.
    As far as LC&T if they are responsible for most of what the NLA takes in dolllar wise, I guess I see their point, they want a say to.
    I hear the NLA is not doing the Digest show, why? Maybe someone can share the light.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    ******************
    Hi Ragu

    I guess the main sticking point of not going is the QVM Question. The NLA supports the QVM rating system for safety reasons. The Limo show will be allowing non QVM vehicles to be displayed. I understand that Ford and Cadallac will not be there as well.

    I would also like to add that we our a small operator in Oregon. We have a fleet of six vehicles. I started with one Limo in my garage seven years ago. I plan on speaking up for the small operator. I am on the Vendor Liason commitee. I have been helping small operators that have problems with vendors. If you need any assistance, please contact me.
    John Sinibaldi
    NLA Board Member

    [This message has been edited by fivestaroregon (edited 09-26-2000).]

  2. #17
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    LCT has a paid circulation of 10,765 at my last count. Unlike our competitor, we are audited by the post office so we give away very few copies and thats a legit number

    I don't know exactly how many NLA members get the magazine but I would say 900 is a good guess. Less than half of those NLA members attended the show in Vegas of the 3650 tickets. Our magazine is printed at a large printer in Kentucky and we cannot insert anything in certain copies. Gee, I knew I liked Kentucky for some reason

    I would be dead set against inserting anything in our magazine. If the NLA does something worthwhile, I cover it but I also have to be extremely sensitive to the vast majority of our readers and show goers who are not NLA members.

    The NLA is not a sponsor of the LD Show and, in exchange for our 60 g's, we asked them not to be.

    Let me reiterate 1 thing, the LCT show is successful, in my opinion because after 15 years, BOBIT KNOWS HOW TO DO IT. Anybody who thinks, anyone can duplicate that success without a ton of work is mistaken

  3. #18
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tom mazza:
    LCT has a paid circulation of 10,765 at my last count. Unlike our competitor, we are audited by the post office so we give away very few copies and thats a legit number

    I don't know exactly how many NLA members get the magazine but I would say 900 is a good guess. Less than half of those NLA members attended the show in Vegas of the 3650 tickets. Our magazine is printed at a large printer in Kentucky and we cannot insert anything in certain copies. Gee, I knew I liked Kentucky for some reason

    I would be dead set against inserting anything in our magazine. If the NLA does something worthwhile, I cover it but I also have to be extremely sensitive to the vast majority of our readers and show goers who are not NLA members.

    The NLA is not a sponsor of the LD Show and, in exchange for our 60 g's, we asked them not to be.

    Let me reiterate 1 thing, the LCT show is successful, in my opinion because after 15 years, BOBIT KNOWS HOW TO DO IT. Anybody who thinks, anyone can duplicate that success without a ton of work is mistaken
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I think this gives everyone a very clear glimpse at where NLA fits into the scheme of things and that Bobit is not going to let the tail wag the dog. The exclusionary requirement for the $60K is not unfair, although it doesn't look like NLA sponsorship of the LimoDigest show makes any difference. This past year we attended LimoDigest, and will also this year, but we did not go to Las Vegas. In Feb. 2000, this was largely due to a personal schedule problem. Geography has more to do with it than anything else, aside from my personal disinterest in Las Vegas as a place for anything. There's litle question that a trade show takes a geat deal of effort and planning, to say nothing of know how, and there are so many dollars available in a limousine company budget for relatively expensive trade shows. I am sure NLA can't swing one on its own, and it doesn't have the industry clout to affect a show much one way or another as a sponsor. LCT might be using a "big" printer in Kentucky, but it's either an "old" big printer, or a technologically-backward "big" printer if it can't put pages in some but not all magazines and identify the recipients. Obviously, that cannot be changed, but it does leave Bobit exposed to the possibility that LimoDigest can do it and might WANT to do it. I hear no one at LimoDigest patronizes limos.com - let's see if they're lurking out there somewhere. Dean???

  4. #19
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jhj:
    I think this gives everyone a very clear glimpse at where NLA fits into the scheme of things and that Bobit is not going to let the tail wag the dog. The exclusionary requirement for the $60K is not unfair, although it doesn't look like NLA sponsorship of the LimoDigest show makes any difference. This past year we attended LimoDigest, and will also this year, but we did not go to Las Vegas. In Feb. 2000, this was largely due to a personal schedule problem. Geography has more to do with it than anything else, aside from my personal disinterest in Las Vegas as a place for anything. There's litle question that a trade show takes a geat deal of effort and planning, to say nothing of know how, and there are so many dollars available in a limousine company budget for relatively expensive trade shows. I am sure NLA can't swing one on its own, and it doesn't have the industry clout to affect a show much one way or another as a sponsor. LCT might be using a "big" printer in Kentucky, but it's either an "old" big printer, or a technologically-backward "big" printer if it can't put pages in some but not all magazines and identify the recipients. Obviously, that cannot be changed, but it does leave Bobit exposed to the possibility that LimoDigest can do it and might WANT to do it. I hear no one at LimoDigest patronizes limos.com - let's see if they're lurking out there somewhere. Dean??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Everyone hits the limo forum-it is popular. Part of Digest's success is recognizing that there are well over 20,000 companies in the industry, and have been for the last five years. The industry is going through some major growing pains right now, it will be interesting to see how things work out. Sincerely, Dean Schuler

  5. #20
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    I hear no one at LimoDigest patronizes limos.com - let's see if they're lurking out there somewhere.

    No, let me clarify -- the Limo Digest magazine (outside of Dean) ignores Limos.com from a publication standpoint -- the subscribers don't. There are plenty of LD Subscribers here.

    It is quite obvious based on their current issue (technology) that LD continues their non-disclosed boycott of us-- probably because of their underground relationship with Interride and other web related companies.

    I guess being the most used, the oldest, the most accepted, the most trafficked limousine, related website holds zero clout with the "Voice of the Limousine Industry".

    Perhaps an announcement that Limos.com is being acquired by YAHOO (Nasdaq: YHOO) would be newsworthy enough to get mention in that magazine. (Hint Hint) Probably not.

    Anyway, the topic at hand -- people all around the world read the Limo-Forum and know about it. It is the most active Limo related Forum -- just don't expect to have it publicized, acknowledged, or notated in LD. Or, expect anything related to Limos.com published there.

    Frustrating as the Founder of this company, however I guess they must protect their own interests, which are many.

    I would love to be proved wrong.

  6. #21
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    Dean- I have counted you as a friend for almost 7 years and I respect your industry acumen.

    But, there are not 20,000 limousine companies, period. I personally undertook the "How many limo companies are there project in July and August.

    I have written contact with every single PUC office and corporation commission in the country. I personally visited Dun and Bradstreet in NYC and I worked closely with ABC list of Omaha, NE. There may be 20,000 names of limo companies ie A Affordable Limo and Affordable Limo may be counted twice but as far as legitimate limousine operators, there are between 10,300 and 11,000.

    FYI, about 850 companies incorporated as a new business in 99.

    Dean, I read your stuff in LD but please give us the step by step methodology of how you come up with the 20,000 names. I am willing to send Michael all of my files and you do the same and let LImos.com tell us how many companies they think there are

  7. #22
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tom mazza:
    Dean- I have counted you as a friend for almost 7 years and I respect your industry acumen.

    But, there are not 20,000 limousine companies, period. I personally undertook the "How many limo companies are there project in July and August.

    I have written contact with every single PUC office and corporation commission in the country. I personally visited Dun and Bradstreet in NYC and I worked closely with ABC list of Omaha, NE. There may be 20,000 names of limo companies ie A Affordable Limo and Affordable Limo may be counted twice but as far as legitimate limousine operators, there are between 10,300 and 11,000.

    FYI, about 850 companies incorporated as a new business in 99.

    Dean, I read your stuff in LD but please give us the step by step methodology of how you come up with the 20,000 names. I am willing to send Michael all of my files and you do the same and let LImos.com tell us how many companies they think there are
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Wow!!!! This is a bigger shell game than the NLA board! How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Hey, guys, even I know to keep out of this one. Why not take this thread to a new topic - my suggested name, "Now You See It, Now You Don't!" Truly, the Yellow Book just came out in Pittsburgh and I sat down with some other long-time operators and all of our chauffeurs (who have been driving for years and years) and we couldn't figure out how many limousine operators there are in Pittsburgh, and we have less than a hundred to account for. You can count stars in a galaxy easier than limousine companies.

  8. #23
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tom mazza:
    Dean- I have counted you as a friend for almost 7 years and I respect your industry acumen.

    But, there are not 20,000 limousine companies, period. I personally undertook the "How many limo companies are there project in July and August.

    I have written contact with every single PUC office and corporation commission in the country. I personally visited Dun and Bradstreet in NYC and I worked closely with ABC list of Omaha, NE. There may be 20,000 names of limo companies ie A Affordable Limo and Affordable Limo may be counted twice but as far as legitimate limousine operators, there are between 10,300 and 11,000.

    FYI, about 850 companies incorporated as a new business in 99.

    Dean, I read your stuff in LD but please give us the step by step methodology of how you come up with the 20,000 names. I am willing to send Michael all of my files and you do the same and let LImos.com tell us how many companies they think there are
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    OK, OK - I guess I can't resist. This is the sum total of the contribution I can make to this debate. First, you must define your terms. What is a limousine service? Is it a one-man jitney with a 1982 Lincoln, no insurance and a regular vehicle registration? If two or more companies are owned or controlled by the same ownership interest but are separately incorporated and own vehicles in separate names, but operate out of the same garage with the same employees, do you count them as one or two? What if a husband owns one company and the wife owns another in the foregoing example - are they one or two companies? How many companies go out of business in a year, and how many new owners come on line during the same year? How many companies are bought by other companies in a year? What is the date of your count? How do you hold them still long enough to count them - limo companies, not angels? If you guys can agree on what to call a "limousine service" and agree on a methodology, including the moment in time for the count to be effective, you might come up with numbers that are close. Without any such agreement, both of you can be completely right. A limousine service exists only in the eye of the beholder - and only then for a brief moment.
    The deviation in a count where the counters do not have an agreement on either the definition of a limousine service or the methodology of the count can easily be 100%. Since you both have all of your records, ley me make a suggestion. Select one city, such as Pittsburgh (I recommend Pittsburgh because our local knowledge can point up errors in count that come solely from not being physically present in the market), or Columbus, or Indianapolis, or any other city you can get your arms around, and both of you report your count for that city. Then, each of you explain how you arrived at your number. This procedure will probably point up the methodological differences, and it may prove what the deviation is likely to be in any such count. It will also save Michael a lot of time.


    [This message has been edited by jhj (edited 09-27-2000).]

  9. #24
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    Michael -
    Can you move these last few posts on number of limo companies to a topic "Now You See It, Now You Don't."

  10. #25
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    Here is how I counted limousine companies: Registered as a limousine company with the state public utility commission or state corporation commission or has a fderal tax ID number that identifies a primary business as "limousine service". If Mr. and Mrs Joe Blow have seperate state or federal ID #'s there are 2 companies. ABC List Co is the largest provider of business list's in the world, they are not off by 50% in their calculation, neither is Dunn and Bradstreet. Furthermore, when your magazine depends on "PAID SUBSCRIBERS" and your show department has tracked limousine company growth for 15 years, we have some data behind our numbers. FYI, The LCT fact book figures are always criticized but the 1000 reponses we get, (I'll let you see completed surveys) is statistically significant

    There are less than 11,000 limousine companies, trust me

  11. #26
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    Please refer comments pertaining to the size of the industry to the appropriate thread -- now found at:
    http://www.limousinesonline.com/ubb/...ML/000132.html

    Thanks!

  12. #27
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    John I appreciate your answer, but understand
    about the little guys. If you are truley one of them, I will know shortly, because there is only a select few of the directors that my guy's hear from, the rest only call when they want something, I can't elaborate at this time,but after the nominations and elections I might have to. I am sure we will be speaking eventually.
    Jims points are good, listen every association messes up, they just don't correct things until their called on it, maybe the point made somewhere on the forum about most NLA members don't know or care or even read the newsletters, they just want to be part of something. I would not take what Jim says personally,but start fixing some errors. Get the right people on the board to help do this, these guys are out there, just ask them.

  13. #28
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    All take notice that this topic opened three days ago and there has been no meaningful response from NLA directors. The only non-voting director to respond was Curt Andrews, and he didn't know who the NLA auditor was/is! The points raised here were first raised a month ago in other topics, and there was no meaningful response since then either. John Sinibaldi promised to respond, but the "limo old boys" throttled him. Ron Sorci said he needed time to confer with other people to answer the questions, but that's not going to happen either. The "gag" order is apparently still in place, NLA is going to "stonewall," and they think that there aren't enough readers on limos.com to make any difference. I don't think they understand that responding in this forum is the way to avoid spending money in Court in D.C. when their annual meeting and elections get challenged and action is taken to open up the books to the members. This is going to start as soon as the illegal nominating committee sends its illegal "report" to the illegal board with its "hand-picked" candidates for directorships. Maybe the legal fees paid to D.C. lawyers to try to defend this rogue organization will cause the road shows to disappear from the budget - maybe Host Communications will disappear from the budget, too. Maybe these directors need to consult legal counsel to find out what happens when a rogue organization is operating "ultra vires." It means that they are not acting as the corporation and can incur personal liability, including being surcharged for the unlawful expenditure of association funds. There's also the chance that a D.C. judge, when seeing the almost complete lack of compliance with the by-laws, might just appoint a custodian and liquidate the whole shebang. And then there's the possibility of claiming damages from Host Communications, that holds itself out as a company competent to "manage" associations, under whose tutelage the by-laws have been thrown out the window. Host shouldn't forget that members can bring this kind of derivative action.

  14. #29
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ragu:
    John I appreciate your answer, but understand
    about the little guys. If you are truley one of them, I will know shortly, because there is only a select few of the directors that my guy's hear from, the rest only call when they want something, I can't elaborate at this time,but after the nominations and elections I might have to. I am sure we will be speaking eventually.
    Jims points are good, listen every association messes up, they just don't correct things until their called on it, maybe the point made somewhere on the forum about most NLA members don't know or care or even read the newsletters, they just want to be part of something. I would not take what Jim says personally,but start fixing some errors. Get the right people on the board to help do this, these guys are out there, just ask them.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Would someone tell me what qualifies one to be a "little guy?" I want to know if we're in or out of that club.

  15. #30
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ragu:
    John I appreciate your answer, but understand
    about the little guys. If you are truley one of them, I will know shortly, because there is only a select few of the directors that my guy's hear from, the rest only call when they want something, I can't elaborate at this time,but after the nominations and elections I might have to. I am sure we will be speaking eventually.
    Jims points are good, listen every association messes up, they just don't correct things until their called on it, maybe the point made somewhere on the forum about most NLA members don't know or care or even read the newsletters, they just want to be part of something. I would not take what Jim says personally,but start fixing some errors. Get the right people on the board to help do this, these guys are out there, just ask them.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Ragu

    You are welcome to call me anytime. My phone numbers are: 1-800-517-9555 or my cell 1-503-881-9990. Like to hear from you.

    John Sinibaldi
    NLA Board Member

    ------------------

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