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Thread: SFO Airport "CNG Required" Proposal is gonna hurt us all.

  1. #31
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    Next comes the fact that the coachbuilders are not producing a mass amount of CNG vehicles making it difficult to replace existing fleets but yet failure to replace the fleet with required vehicles basically puts you out of the airport business at SFO
    Jim for some ammunition give some of the conversion companies a call and ask them what is the current waiting list to convert your current fleet. I know the one we used BAF in Texas had about a 1 year back log at one point to convert a town car.
    http://www.baftechnologies.com/Home.html

    Then also add into the cost of the conversion shipping to TX along with 3-4 weeks down time while it is getting done.

    Also call your local dealer and ask them how many of their techs are certified to repair CNG systems. They may ask you "what is CNG?" You may find you will have to send your vehicle a vast distance to get something on the CNG system repaired. Nothing like a $200.00 towing bill for a $50.00 repair.

    Would be good to try and get a hybrid vehicle clause built into SFO's Clean air mandate. That is something the industry could respond to quicker, and for the most part the auto industry already has in place.

    Next comes the fact that CNG fueling stations are not plentiful. Destinations away from the airport are plentiful. I typically drive 2.5 hours from LAX to a passenger's final destination, where ever that might be and where oh where might we get CNG fuel in the Mojave desert?
    Jim while this may seem like a good argument it does not hold water most of the time. Fact is in CA there are many stations. Now this does not mean that those stations will always be operational. If a pump goes down (and there is sometimes only one at a facility) it maybe a week before it is fixed so planning a trip with CNG is essential and an extra duty for you driver and dispatch staff. There have only been a couple of times where we had to deny the use of a CNG vehicle and that was like an odd trip to a resort in death valley. And the fact is there was a refueling station on the way there that they could have stopped and refueled it's just that is would have been 320 miles to get back to that refueling station from the resort and that was pushing the limit on our range, did not want to take that chance. So in this case if LAX would have required (they don't) a pick up in a CNG vehicle we would have done that and just transfered the passenger to a standard fuel / Hybrid vehicle. Not an ideal situation but that was one situation in probable 10,000 trips.

    We also operated a CNG Town car in SFO for a time, had no problems finding CNG refueling doing the standard routes in and around San Francisco, Oakland, Palo Alto Etc.

    Here is a site that lists CNG Locations: http://www.cleancarmaps.com/

    And yes keep in mind Like Alan is quoted from LCT below, It takes retraining the drivers to always fill up the vehicles before and after every trip when they are around a CNG Station. If you got some lazy drivers it will show up quick when they are driving a CNG..
    Steve Walker ppvsteve@gmail.com

  2. #32
    Super Moderator gunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TxLimoGuy View Post
    Interesting article from 2007 when non-CNG taxicabs revolted and stopped serving SFO because they were pissed about the Front of Line privileges given to CNG cabs, causing disruption to the public who needed cabs.

    To restore cab service and harmony the City then took away the CNG cabs FOL privilege, resulting in a lawsuit from the cabbies who had bought CNG cabs.

    http://www.law.com/jsp/PubArticle.jsp?id=900005498858
    Ahh... the power of "fark you" we are not going to do it.

    Luff, how about a better impact title to this thread? Maybe something like, "SFO CNG Mandate Threatens Consumer Airport Transportation"
    Airport Limo Service Spring Hill, Brooksville, Citrus County FL
    http://gunnysairportlimo.com/tampa_a...ce_spring_hill

  3. #33
    Senior Member Wade Randolph's Avatar
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    Or "This is what happens when Liberals run the show".

  4. #34

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    I like the idea of farming out the pick up or drop off at SFO then transferring to one of our vehicles. But I'm sure the clients won't like the addn'l costs associated with that or the inconvenience....There are ZERO CNG stations in our whole county..Stanislaus. Actually I think I did some searching last night and found there are only 186 CNG stations in all of California. (Steve's referenced website shows 163) That really isn't much if you consider how spread out California is. I'm going to call some places and see what the costs and time frame for converting our limos will be just to have the ammo at the meeting. Great Idea! thanks.

    We are going to the town hall meeting, in fact I was so in a tizzy about it that I thought it was tonight! Good thing Luff has my back and informed me it's next Tuesday! LOL

    Kathy
    City Heat Limousine

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunny View Post
    Always fail to recognize the negative impact of their regulations upon motor carriers servicing smaller communities and the citizens most in need of nonpublic forms of transportation due to govmint failing to provide adequate mass transit options.

    If most small operators take Kathy's position what will be the outcome? A few holding a monopoly & holding travelers price & service hostage? A new breeding ground for "under the radar" car services?

    I stated a long time ago that guvmint regulations is fertilizer for gypsy operations.
    Gunny, you are RIGHT ON! This will open the door for the gypsies. I saw a Honda SUV the other day with advertising on it to do airport delivery and tours. NO TCP # . There will be "family style vehicles" transporting without paying the trip fees, the yearly fees, and certainly not giving them the $1500 deposit just for the privilege of doing business on their property. They won't be harassed, as they will be "family vehicles" not livery transportation. But the consumer will be the loser when there is an accident, and the domino effect goes on as far as everyone getting their share of the fees and taxes, local, state and federal, because who's going to regulate the gypsies to be sure they're reporting their income.......... UGH!!!!

    Our community is not small, over 250,000 in our city alone and we are ranked the 17th largest city in the state. Stanislaus County has a population of over 510,000. There are lots of airport transfers being done, just not by our company as we are not marketing to that client. We do airport transfers of large groups or families wanting to travel together to the airport for their family vacations. If this takes effect as planned, there will be lots more vehicles traveling for those type of occasions, as there are no CNG vehicles/limos in our area that I've been able to find. So for a group in one of our 20 passenger limos, it would be minimum of 4 or 5 vehicles to transport that group to the airport. Seems that would be a bigger carbon impact that our one vehicle. However, the parking costs for the airport would be hefty for that many vehicles, so SFO wins there too...........

    I could go on, but will try to contain my arguements for next Tuesday'smeeting.

    Kathy
    Citiy Heat Limousine

  6. #36
    Super Moderator gunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by City Heat View Post
    Gunny, you are RIGHT ON! This will open the door for the gypsies. I saw a Honda SUV the other day with advertising on it to do airport delivery and tours. NO TCP # . There will be "family style vehicles" transporting without paying the trip fees, the yearly fees, and certainly not giving them the $1500 deposit just for the privilege of doing business on their property. They won't be harassed, as they will be "family vehicles" not livery transportation. But the consumer will be the loser when there is an accident, and the domino effect goes on as far as everyone getting their share of the fees and taxes, local, state and federal, because who's going to regulate the gypsies to be sure they're reporting their income.......... UGH!!!!

    Our community is not small, over 250,000 in our city alone and we are ranked the 17th largest city in the state. Stanislaus County has a population of over 510,000. There are lots of airport transfers being done, just not by our company as we are not marketing to that client. We do airport transfers of large groups or families wanting to travel together to the airport for their family vacations. If this takes effect as planned, there will be lots more vehicles traveling for those type of occasions, as there are no CNG vehicles/limos in our area that I've been able to find. So for a group in one of our 20 passenger limos, it would be minimum of 4 or 5 vehicles to transport that group to the airport. Seems that would be a bigger carbon impact that our one vehicle. However, the parking costs for the airport would be hefty for that many vehicles, so SFO wins there too...........

    I could go on, but will try to contain my arguements for next Tuesday'smeeting.

    Kathy
    Citiy Heat Limousine
    Kathy,

    Always, always make it a consumer issue when debating with these regulatory clowns. Is SFO the primary AP for your city? If so, who will provide transport for the folks of your city if the small livery businesses cannot afford to switch over? How about ability to meet consumer cargo transport needs? How about affordability for older folks on fixed incomes? Anything you can think of as a negative impact on the intercounty consumer.

    Remember, these regulatory clowns work within the metro box & fail to recognize regional impact of their decisions. They look at all the transport options a city dweller has & fail to consider the residents 1, 2, 3 or more counties removed.

    Also pay attention to who shows. There could be some big operations supporting the CNG regulation knowing it will open up new markets when smaller ops fall off.
    Airport Limo Service Spring Hill, Brooksville, Citrus County FL
    http://gunnysairportlimo.com/tampa_a...ce_spring_hill

  7. #37

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    Thanks for the tips Gunny. I respect your posts and your "fight."

    Oakland airport is across the bay from SFO, and Sacramento Int'l is 90 miles north, so there are other options for our community. However, it would seem those airports will follow suit with SFO. I'm sure there are larger operators closer to SFO, however, in our area the operators are Mom and Pop. With the economy in our area, I doubt they will be excited to replace their fleet or even add a CNG vehicle to accomodate SFO airport transfers. There really just isn't that much $$ in airport runs here, as the commute traffic makes those trips not 2 hours, but closer to 4-6 hour runs depending on the time of day. At the rate of $200 to $250 per trip that's not a money maker for anyone. And if we have to drive to the next county to fuel up with CNG , the rates will have to go up just to break even.

    Kathy
    City Heat Limousine

  8. #38

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    If a out of town company only does occasional transfers to SFO why not just sub out the job to a San Francisco affiliate who has a CNG vehicle and take a 20% commission? Why bother with the hassle and expense of converting a vehicle?
    Tony Franzetti
    Marriton Limousine, Austin, TX
    Austin Limousine service, Austin airport service, austin bus charters
    http://www.marritonlimo.com

  9. #39
    Senior Member TBLIMO's Avatar
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    If you don't like it - go fight it! Tony has a point and you might make more with the 20% then when you do the transfer.
    Put Pimpin Kevin White in Jail, Abolishing the HCPTC.
    Moshe Leib

  10. #40
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    GCLA set up a page on thier site with al relevant info:
    http://www.gcla.org/index.php?option...=75&Itemid=151
    Steve Walker ppvsteve@gmail.com

  11. #41

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    Interesting reading Steve, thanks for the website reference. Will take Tony and TBLimo's suggestions and call some operators to see what the cost will be for a SF Bay area company to come 90 miles to Modesto for an airport transfer for 8 persons as well as 20 persons and get their rates. I'm sure it will be more expensive than the operators in Modesto charge to go to SFO, but if that's a client's only option, so be it. I think in reading the info on the website that Steve posted, SFO knows that they cannot 100% enforce this due to the unavailability of vehicles and CNG in outlying areas. However, it is something that is coming down the pipeline and will filter to all major airports, especially in CA where we have EPA into everybody's biz.
    Kathy
    City Heat Limousine

  12. #42
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    It actually may be those most into capitalism behind it *gasp* Corporatists see the profit potential in CNG vehicles.

    The Limousine Associations of NJ just did an email blast about their upcoming meeting and I quote "...VPG, partially owned by T. Boone Pickens, will make a special presentation of their new compressed natural gas (CNG) vehicles for limousine and taxi use. T. Boon Pickens and VPG Autos are so committed to greening that any company that purchases 25 of their vehicles will receive free installation of your own natural gas station at your site. Come and see their new prototype vehicle which will be on display at the special 10 am – 12 noon round table meeting (for companies with over 25 vehicles) and at the 12 noon general meeting. "

    I don't believe I've ever heard of T. Boone Pickens being called a liberal. He has been called a multi-billionaire many times over.

    While I dont know what their most up-to-date design looks like, here is some info I found on them from a few years ago
    http://www.cleanvehicleexpo.com/pres..._EXPO_2008.pdf

    On a slightly different topic, one of my clients was telling me that when his father ran their business and there was a fuel shortage back in the 70's they had a large part of their fleet converted to CNG. The vehicles actually were hybrids in that they would run on both CNG and gasoline. When the CNG would run out the vehicle would sputter for a few seconds while it began to (automatically) draw from the regular gas tank. That means you could re-fuel when you passed a CNG station, you would not need to drive out of your way every time you required fuel.
    Last edited by Rick E.; May 13th, 2010 at 03:07 PM.
    Rick E.
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    ~Stupidity might be hereditary, but ignorance should be painful!~

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  13. #43
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    Being a small operator I can afford 25 vehicles so I can have my own cng fill station.
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    Charles A. Kuritz
    Westfield Limousine Service Inc.
    www.westfieldlimo.com
    ckuritz@westfieldlimo.com

  14. #44
    Senior Member Wade Randolph's Avatar
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    T. Boone Pickens is on the board of SFO???

  15. #45
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    No Wade, the point being made was that in many cases the corporatists can lobby for regulations to favor their own investments. Pickens has been all over the media for the past few years talking-up the benefits of CNG as a vehicle fuel. He also is heavily invested in natural gas and now CNG vehicle production. He, and others in his league, have the ability to spend millions on lobbying. That lobbying results in the types of regulations you see at SFO. Your typical knee-jerk reaction that it's the progressives and liberals behind rules and regulations you may not like is simply untrue; the corporatists are the ones in a position to lobby for the "betterment" of their own particular industries.
    Rick E.
    City Limousine Sales
    √XTS Livery Sedans√Escalade ESV Livery Package SUV's√Lincoln & Cadillac Limousines & Funeral Coaches by Federal Coach√GMC Professional Grade SUV's & 15 Passenger Vans√Cadillac & Buick Passenger Cars, Crossovers, and SUV's.

    ~Stupidity might be hereditary, but ignorance should be painful!~

    www.citylimosales.com

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