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September 10th, 2002, 12:16 AM
My city has a minimum charge per hour regulation. A couple of questions:

1) How prevalent is this across the country. (My guess is that it is standard practice in any large city)

2) How enforceable is it? How often does enforcement occur? What is the punishment? A fine?

3) I have noticed competitors offering discounts which seem to skirt the city regulations. Recommendations for handling such issues?

4) Any legal way to circumvent the regulations for temporarily promoting a new operation? (Yes, I relaize the irony after just asking question #3, but note that I said LEGAL WAYS http://limos.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

September 10th, 2002, 02:47 AM
I wouild be very interested in viewing the regulation you refer to in it's printed form. My fax number is (661) 834-4315. I will consult with three very influential people in the industry and see what their opinion is. I believe it would be very hard to enforce and most law enforcement agencies would not have the manpower to enforce it. That does not mean I advocate breaking the law but perhaps working with your local government to abolish the law.

September 10th, 2002, 03:58 AM
I am expecting a hard copy in the mail today. Will fax it to you then.

September 10th, 2002, 05:54 AM
for states to impose tariffs on common carriers, including a minimum. Whether a municipality can do it is largely a question of fact and of state law. For example, if you have a state public utility or service commission that has the right to approve tariffs, then the local law is probably preempted. If not, then the qustion becomes whether the municipality is a home-rule municipality or not, and, also, whether your state has determined that rates are reseerved to the state. Some difficult constitutional questions are raised here and a lot of facts need to be known to respond, regardless of how influential one might be (or how influential others may think one is). Your questions cannot be answered on the meager facts in your post. If some "influential" person gives you an answer, run (don't walk) the other way.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TxLimoGuy:
My city has a minimum charge per hour regulation. A couple of questions:

1) How prevalent is this across the country. (My guess is that it is standard practice in any large city)

2) How enforceable is it? How often does enforcement occur? What is the punishment? A fine?

3) I have noticed competitors offering discounts which seem to skirt the city regulations. Recommendations for handling such issues?

4) Any legal way to circumvent the regulations for temporarily promoting a new operation? (Yes, I relaize the irony after just asking question #3, but note that I said LEGAL WAYS http://limos.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

James H. Joseph
Pegasus Chauffeured Motor Cars
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
jhj@pegasus-pittsburgh.com

September 10th, 2002, 06:33 AM
must you be such a jerk all the time instead of just trying to help with the industry without all your sarcastic, anti-industry rhetoric and bullshit. Go bury your head in the sand.

September 10th, 2002, 07:21 AM
I regard as bullshit a post by you that is intended as much to try to impress a newcomer that you know three influential people (doubtful) as it is to help. You have this poor guy jumping through hoops to fax you a copy of something that you likely would not understand yourself, and are so arrogant that you think that you can get a solution to his problem when, in fact, you don't even have the wherewithal to understand the problem. At least I gave him a brief educated statement of the problem so he would be steered somewhere other than to your "influential friends" who will contribute nothing to solving his problem. I'm quite sure the municipality in question has a lawyer and that at least he (or she) thought it was legal, so you, I am quite sure, can contribute nothing through your influential friends. If you consider this anti-industry, you are probably right, because as I see it the "industry" is largely a bunch of under-educated dullards who travel on the bloated reputations of others, display signed pictures of celebrities to demonstrate their service (how many are in your gallery at your office?), and that damn few people really make the wheels go around in this business and everybody else stands back awed at shows where the former rather than the latter speak.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Limo Scene:
must you be such a jerk all the time instead of just trying to help with the industry without all your sarcastic, anti-industry rhetoric and bullshit. Go bury your head in the sand.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

James H. Joseph
Pegasus Chauffeured Motor Cars
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
jhj@pegasus-pittsburgh.com

September 10th, 2002, 07:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TxLimoGuy:
My city has a minimum charge per hour regulation. A couple of questions:

1) How prevalent is this across the country. (My guess is that it is standard practice in any large city)

2) How enforceable is it? How often does enforcement occur? What is the punishment? A fine?

3) I have noticed competitors offering discounts which seem to skirt the city regulations. Recommendations for handling such issues?

4) Any legal way to circumvent the regulations for temporarily promoting a new operation? (Yes, I relaize the irony after just asking question #3, but note that I said LEGAL WAYS http://limos.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

locally we have a first hour minimum so as not to compete with the taxis.

September 10th, 2002, 01:03 PM
Luff, if I were to go stick my head in the sand it would be a far better place than where yours would be if Mazza or Eastwood-McLean made a quick stop while walking. For the dullards; hint - your head would follow your nose into a dark orifice.

James H. Joseph
Pegasus Chauffeured Motor Cars
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
jhj@pegasus-pittsburgh.com

September 10th, 2002, 01:25 PM
Jim, you are so ignorant yourself. You don't know me from Adam. On the other hand, I know you were a law CLERK who made less than most doormen do at nice hotels and you couldn't even hang on to that job before you were dismissed. I know that you have two cars in a partnership. I know that the NLA, its members, its directors and officers think you are a pain in the ass and wish you would go away. I know the people at LCT are amused by your sheer stupidity given the fact that you are such a measley player in the whole game making a bunch of noise but accomplishing nothing. Similar to a swallow. I have more access to qualified attorneys at my disposal than you have to plumbers to fix a toilet in your trailer that you call home. You are lower than a McDonald's cashier on the food chain of life. If you were worth a grain of salt you wouldn't have as much time to sit and post here all day long. You notice that I take breaks from posting as I have a life to lead unlike yourself you pathetic scum sucking worm. The reason you post here is that you are a lonely sole and this is probably your only opportunity to interact with the human race as no one would pay you to represent them and I am most positive there is no one who would care to actually sit down and have a discussion with a little midget sleezeball that you are. Rarely does someone push me to the level you have pushed me to here. I am totally committed to helping this industry. I have e-mails from other companies seeking my advice. I have been paid to travel to other states to model their office procedures after my own. Has anyone EVER called upon you for that. I think not. I have helped people in California, Nevada, Idaho and Hawaii with their businesses. What have you done to help anyone lately with you snotty attitude. I await the day when you finally decide to turn out the light, lock the door and close your little office and go join the ranks of your level selling or flipping burgers where you belong. I take that back. You are not even fit for that job. I'm sure somewhere some dairy farmer is looking for someone to scoop up after the cows and I feel you would be ideal at that for a day or two until the cows realized how much they hated you as well as the rest of the world does.
Either start helping and stop griping or go do something worthwhile. This is a place where people come to help and share information. What we are doing here is counter-productive to the cause and now that I have finally vented my thought about you and to you, I will continue to assist people in achieving success and I will no longer respond to or acknowledge your posts.

September 10th, 2002, 02:10 PM
...do grow a bit tiresome after a while. I appreciate the concern, but question the tactics.

September 10th, 2002, 03:35 PM
a post by Luff that strikes his real colors - no substance just name calling. A likely response from someone who sucks on other people's reputations, bloated though they may be.

The name calling reflects far more on Luff than on me, but since he has crossed the threshold from name-calling to slander in some respects, let me rub Luff's nose one last time in his ignorance and blind rage.

Readers here will have noted that my wife and I worked for a local judge who is an alcoholic. When his drunking so pickled his brain that his IQ sank to Luff's level, we went to the Administrative Judge to try to get him in rehab so he couldn't do any further damage to litigants - such as Luff would inflict on those who would consult with him. The judge fired his whole staff (not just me OR my wife, but others as well) because we were trying to get him into rehab. The update on this story is that the judge was charged by the Pennsylvania Judicial Conduct Board with 39 counts of judicial misconduct arising out of his alcoholism, and the trial was scheduled for 8/25/02. The judge resigned a few days before the trial.

The "dismissal" Luff refers to has been reported for months in the local press and is the subject of litigation against the county and the state, and at the moment the only real issue is how much they're going to pay us all who worked for this alcoholic. Does it suprise anyone who knows Luff that he would try to make this look like something much different than it was or is? As for why I was a clerk for the judge, it is well known locally that law clerk positions here are VERY part-time. My time spent working for the judge was calculated based on my private billing rate of $250 per hour, which is somewhat more than bellmen in hotels make, and substantially more than Luff gets for his wedding rides.

Now lets go to what this fool thinks he "knows," i.e., that I have two cars in a partnership. This myth is one started by former NLA directors who do, as Luff suggested, wish I would go away and leave them alone to impress the underbelly of the industry withn their self-proclaimed prowess. The last time Luff tried this, I called his hand and reiterated an offer I made to Luff and other comers some time ago - send $25,000 to Michael at limos.com, and I'll do the same. Then come to Pittsburgh and we'll count cars and look at titles and insurance policies - far more, by the way than LCT does to count cars of far bigger operators - and for each car over TWO that we have we keep $5,000 of the $25,000, and if we have only two cars, Luff can keep our $25,000. Luff had nothing to say in response to this other than to admit he didn't have that kind of money (and people consult him - poor folks). Nor, apparently, do any other of Luff's fellow-travelers at NLA, since no one has yet ponied up any money.

Furthermore, we have no partnership at all. As I have said previously, we hold all of our vehicles in a corporation which leases those vehicles to our operating company. This is done for tax reasons - something beyond the meager mental ability of Luff to understand.

I might add, that when we hold out our fleet to customers, we do not hold out vehicles owned by other operators which we sometimes subcontract, as Luff admittedly does. Luff has no motor coaches, but his web site holds them out as his own. In Pennsylvania, he'd be prosecuted for consumer fraud.

At least we have finally heard the last from this example of the worst in the chauffeured transportation business. I must confess, that I, too, am tired of engaging in a battle of wits with an unarmed man, but if he chooses to open his mouth again I'll be pleased to deal with him.

James H. Joseph
Pegasus Chauffeured Motor Cars
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
jhj@pegasus-pittsburgh.com

September 11th, 2002, 11:26 AM
...than I cared to know. Can't we just get down to business talk?

September 11th, 2002, 01:22 PM
but there are fools out there who have a propensity to believe malicious liars like Luff, so you have to deal with it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TxLimoGuy:
...than I cared to know. Can't we just get down to business talk?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

James H. Joseph
Pegasus Chauffeured Motor Cars
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
jhj@pegasus-pittsburgh.com

September 11th, 2002, 01:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As I have said previously, we hold all of our vehicles in a corporation which leases those vehicles to our operating company.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jim, how does that work ... is your holding corp an LLC or a C-Corp. And the limo service, is that an LLC or a C-Corp. You said this is for tax reasons.... is it also for liability reasons as well?

This is another good topic I would think as far as the benefits of doing what you described above.

http://www.limousinesonline.com/proudmember.gif

September 11th, 2002, 03:36 PM
I would like to apologize to TXlimoguy and other forum users for the personal agendas contained below. I believe the forum is a place for professionals to share information, glean information and assist each other in what we do. I do not have all the answers. I do however have a track record. Our company was started in 1990 with a single vehicle. Today, we own 17 vehicles and employ 29 people (I know my website needs a little update). We have payments on a single vehicle and the rest are owned outright. We purchased our last coach a month ago from Pat Butler at Tiffany Coachworks and paid cash. I
am frequently called upon by LCT Magazine (the leading limo industry magazine) to provide insight into daily operations. We were selected based on established criteria as a candidate for Operator of the Year. While we did not "win", we were honored to be considered based on our customer service, training programs and a host of other criteria. At the time, I had no personal knowledge of anyone at LCT or the NLA of which we were not a member. Two of my references for assisting other limo companies include Luxury Limousine of Modesto, CA and Showcase Limousine of Boise Idaho as well as assisting a company in the application process in Nevada which I have provided start-up planning for.

Today, I was honored to receive six e-mails which stood in support of me in the posts contained below.

As much as I appreciate the personal e-mails, I only wish they would have come in the form of posts that others could see. While I appreciate the support, it has detracted from the purpose of the forum's intention. To give advice, seek and advice and share ideas, instead of unwarranted personal attacks and barbs.

Having stated my background and credentials, I remain ready, willing and more than capable of providing advice and assistance to my fellow operators. Likewise, I appreciate the opportunity to gain valuable information from others with more or different experiences than I have. With all this said, I will dedicate my attention to issues which concern us as and industry and as previously stated, I will neither acknowledge or reply to attacks upon my character from JHJ.

I was wrong in venting my opinions and feelings about a single individual here on this forum and I humbly apologize for doing so.

September 11th, 2002, 09:45 PM
no cookie-cutter model of sucn an arrangement. I am not a fan of S-corporations or other limited liability associations that are taxed as partnerships to mitigate taxes. Typically, all thy do is overcomplicate one's personal tax return and are too often recommended by lawyers and accountants as professional calesthentics than as the best way to achieve a result. They also unduly raise the costs of accounting and tax compliance. I tend to stick with c-corporation status and use traditional techniques to distribute income and shelter it from unnecessary taxation.

The most effective device we use in such multi-corporation situations is staggered fiscal years which lets transactions between affiliated entities fall into different years for each of them.

We have used multiple corporations to control liability, but not in the case of the transportation business because there is little upside liability exposure (insurance covers most liabilities, and trade creditor liability is not a significant consideration).

There are also other considerations, such as regulatory issues, etc., etc., so no one solution is susceptible of being reiterated effectively in another context.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Viperion Corporation / Limos.com:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As I have said previously, we hold all of our vehicles in a corporation which leases those vehicles to our operating company.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jim, how does that work ... is your holding corp an LLC or a C-Corp. And the limo service, is that an LLC or a C-Corp. You said this is for tax reasons.... is it also for liability reasons as well?

This is another good topic I would think as far as the benefits of doing what you described above.

http://www.limousinesonline.com/proudmember.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

James H. Joseph
Pegasus Chauffeured Motor Cars
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
jhj@pegasus-pittsburgh.com

September 11th, 2002, 10:20 PM
help himself. Even in apologizing he has to take his shots, so maybe it's time to point some things out. Michael (and anybody else who pays attention) knows that the forum attracts thousands of visitors and tens of thousands of page views on limos.com. There is almost no one in the industry that does not cruise the forum on a regular basis. Only a small number speak, but most have a position. Luff is now trying to introduce something new - counting fan mail.

I think I have made reference only once about 18 months ago to fan mail, and that was when I sketched out the form of a new limousine association and received a whopping number of e-mail expressions of support for doing so. 90% of these writers desired anonymity for lots of very good reasons. Based on my e-mail and telephone calls, if Luff received only 6 e-mail messages (less than the number of NLA directors who typically e-mail forum participants who attack me), he should not even mention this lack of support. I don't intend to get into pointing out that these forums have produced hundreds and hundreds of e-mail messages as a means of legitimizing anything I say here.

Luff is an "other-directed" person. He has a need for personal recognition and to associate himself with others whom he thinks are more successful and important than himself (look at his web site as a personality profile). I do not perceive myself as suffering from a similar affliction. I learned a long time ago that as a lawyer you can't make everybody a friend or supporter, for in my business 50% are winners and 50% are losers and one's popularity tends to mirror those statistics. And you can't take hard positions if you're running a popularity contest. So even if I were a committe of 1, it wouldn't change what I have to say.

What Luff has missed here as a relative newcomer to the forum is that since I first began to criticize NLA and its fellow travelers (which includes Luff and others) is that virtually no one wants to meet my criticisms (often supported by others) substantively, i.e., on the merits of the issue. From the very beginning, the technique used by NLA directors and fellow-travelers has been to attack me and others personally. So when Luff now proclaims that he wants to participate in these forums for the good of the industry, this is phony-baloney because he can't and won't deal with the criticisms of NLA. For example, how can any right-thinking person justify NLA, which is bound by its by-laws to do so, not making available its financial statements for three years now. I have raised numerous such issues, which are met by nothing more than the Luffs marching along in single-file, encouraged by e-mail from NLA directors and fellow-travelers, attacking me personally. The REAL position is that MOST forum visitors stand behind my arguments and recognize the techniques being used by NLA directors and fellow-travelers, but won't speak out because they are Dav-el affiliates, or Empire affiliates, or Music affiliates, or several, and they know that the persons who control such networks won't hesitate for a minute to use their economic power to stifle criticism. Those networks were leaned on in the last two NLA elections, and that's how we got where we are at NLA.

So if Luff disdains personal attacks, then why did he start such attacks? Simply scroll back and look at the early posts and it is pathetically clear who used what techniques. Go to Luff's profile, click on the link to look at all of his posts and see how often and when Luff ever adddressed any issue substantively, and how he invariably responded to issues with personal attacks. Now he wants to take the high-ground, but it is too late, for it is already occupied.

For my part, my position is unchanged. I have leveled criticism of NLA, its management, officers, director and fellow-travelers on policy and governmental issues for three years, almost universally without any substantive response (and with great support, I might add). I will debate at any time and at any place the merits of these issues. Too bad no one has ever shown up to defend NLA and its ilk in any way other than to level personal attacks.

Those who have been around here for more than a few weeks or a few months haved perspective on these matters, the latecomers do not.

James H. Joseph
Pegasus Chauffeured Motor Cars
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
jhj@pegasus-pittsburgh.com

September 11th, 2002, 11:06 PM
Jim, In the 1980's-without a doubt. Not anymore, my friend.

Dean Schuler

September 12th, 2002, 01:15 AM
If whoever is interested goes to Luff's profile and clicks on "View All Posts by this Member," you will note that Luff began his ad hominem attacks on me about February 18, or about two weeks after Bobit took over NLA (coincidence? - No). Before that he had almost nothing to say. After that he had almost nothing to say but to direct personal attacks to me. I am perfectly able to defend myself if that becomes the preferred method of warfare, and I have done so. But most forum participants should take the long view and see what is REALLY happening here and who is schilling for whom, and how, and why.

James H. Joseph
Pegasus Chauffeured Motor Cars
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
jhj@pegasus-pittsburgh.com

September 12th, 2002, 06:21 AM
please, please let the forum serve it's purpose. Some are here simply to ask questions and receive answers. Please let this happen Jim.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JHJ:
If whoever is interested goes to Luff's profile and clicks on "View All Posts by this Member," you will note that Luff began his _ad hominem_ attacks on me about February 18, or about two weeks after Bobit took over NLA (coincidence? - No). Before that he had almost nothing to say. After that he had almost nothing to say _but_ to direct personal attacks to me. I am perfectly able to defend myself if that becomes the preferred method of warfare, and I have done so. But most forum participants should take the long view and see what is REALLY happening here and who is schilling for whom, and how, and why.

James H. Joseph
_Pegasus Chauffeured Motor Cars_
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
jhj@pegasus-pittsburgh.com)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Matt Harrison
AAA Guaranteed On-Time Limousine, Clinton NJ

October 29th, 2002, 01:00 AM
I have always liked the idea ,I wrote letters to try to get the ball rolling in Richmond,Va. but nothing happened.This was way back before airline deregulation.My thinking was if you set a minimum price you eliminate price cutters and establish a fair rate where we are allowed to make a decent living without being rich to begin with, or either working like dogs ourselves. We could hire the neccesasry staff to takae some of the work load off us personely ,and could run a safe operation for the public. You wouldn't need to worry about the high end the market will take care of that on its own.Makes alot of sense to me,although I dont know how it would be enforced.