NLA and the CTCP [Archive] - The Limousine Discussion Forum

July 30th, 2000, 11:58 AM

The membership list on the web site is never updated automatically. Here's how we got listed. After months of e-mail and messages left with the vegetables at headquarters in Kentucky, I got the e-mail addresses for all of the members of the board of directors, and sent them all an e-mail noting not only the lack of updates to the web site, but the lack of responsiveness to any inquiries or complaints about it. Needless to say, I got one reply agreeng with me, but I also got action and our company was added to the membership list. Of course, the listing had an error in every line, and I had to go through the same thing to get corrections made. I really wish I wasn't as busy as I am right now, because I'd really like to stand for election as a director on a single-plank platform - terminate the contract with Host and move headquarters to a location where there is a pool of competent employees (suburban Washington, DC, where HQ should be would be fine). If we ran our businesses the way Scott & Company run the NLA, we wouldn't need an association since our companies woul not exist. And, Michael, what's wrong with you? To conclude that this lack of responsiveness is isolated cases is contrary to all available evidence. Let's hear from anybody anywhere who has had a good experience getting response from the NLA staff since Host has been involved. Want a treat - call for directory assistance for the phone number of the NLA in Harrodsburg - there ain't none!!! Do you get the message? Go away, don't bother us. Let's not even get into the issue of the directors and officers, who serve as a mutual-admiration society and to boost their local businesses.

July 30th, 2000, 12:14 PM

I forgot to add one thing about the e-mail to the directors of NLA - several came back "no such address." What does this tell you? E-mail is window-dressing to make it look like their companies are technologically advanced. Other than the one who replied, my guess is the others still haven't read their e-mail. As for the "road shows," these are a known joke. The sole purpose of NLA right now is to perpetuate itself through new members (the unwary and unsuspecting), and the appearances at the national shows and the road shows is solely for that purpose. No wonder 80% of limousine services are not members. Is there enough support out there for a ground swell to do something with NLA and kick out these Luddites? Probably not. If such support doesn't appear here, it won't appear anywhere. This thread may get a response because if enough people echo what we're saying, it will threaten their membership campaign. But lip-service is all you will get anyhow. How much do you want to bet that not a single NLA staff member, director or officer follows these forums. Let's invite them to speak up and be deafened by the silence!!!!! Hello, out there - anybody home at NLA???? Knock-knock.

July 30th, 2000, 12:29 PM

Woah -- look out -- I have a feeling this thread is going to get interesting...

In reply to above, there is nothing wrong with me. However, I "hope" that my experience, and yours, was not the standard policy of the NLA. Yes, it is a "hope" because, as you say, all evidence points to the contrary.

The way economics are, if the market is being served poorly, opportunity exists to serve it better. I believe their is a grass-roots effort to begin the American Limousine Association in St. Louis-- check the announcements -- perhaps this is as a direct result on how you feel things have been administered with the NLA?

Host Communications? Where are they located? Do they administrate the NLA website?

July 30th, 2000, 12:49 PM

I know John Sokal (sp?) of Ritz Limousine in Chicago is an officer with the NLA. I can personally vouch that his company responds to email several times daily. However, I am not sure if he frequents these forums. As for the other NLA officers, I don't think they do.

I think Dean Schuler was an officer in the NLA some time ago. He frequents the forums -- Maybe that is the closest we can get?

Michael

July 30th, 2000, 02:51 PM

Well, Michael, I guess we're going to find out who is here and who isn't before long. As for Host, let me explain. NLA has no staff, no office, no nothing. At some unknown point in time, NLA delegated the administration of the association to an outside contractor, Host something-or-other. I think it's Host Communications, or at least that is the domain name for their e-mail (perhaps they have a web site, I've never checked). This is a litle known fact. Host is also a contractor for some other trade associations, if I understand all of this correctly. NLA is nothing more than one of several buttons on telephones in the name of Host Communications. Everyone on the "NLA Staff" is really an employee of Host, and what I don't know is whether they work just on NLA matters or several associations at one time. I suspect the latter, although I think Host will deny that. In any event, in my opinion Host is sucking away the money from NLA and NLA gets precious little in return. I think all of this came about because nobody really wants to get involved in NLA administration, or perhaps no one has the skill sets to administer NLA. Host devotes most of its time to running an NLA membership campaign, and little else, as far as I can see. The web site, as you know, is a joke. I've argued several times that it should be taken off-line rather than be the embarassment that it is, but my suggestions fall on deaf ears because nobody at NLA is watching the store being managed by Host. Am I the only person who knows any of this???? I bet there are directors that don't. I'd like to know what NLA is paying Host to do nothing - I can do nothing, too - how do I get on this dole?

July 30th, 2000, 02:58 PM

Aha!!! OK, all, go to http://www.hostcommunications.com (http://www.hostcommunications.com,) and click on "Association Management." Keep drilling down and you'll see that Host "manages" the NLA.

[This message has been edited by XENEFOX Media Corporation (edited 07-31-2000).]

July 30th, 2000, 07:51 PM

I have to add my two cents in also. I have been a member of the NLA for two years now and I too have had or noticed many of the same problems listed above. It took me over a year to get my company and website listed on their website. It is not user friendly and for awhile it wasn't even working properly so you couldn't do a search for companies by location or name. I am not impressed. I don't even know if you are supposed to get a new member certificate each year because I never got a new one, the only one I have says 1999. Do they just give a certificate the first year you join? I know I get a new members handbook each year. And while I am on the subject of no response, does anyone else have problems with the California Limousine Association? I sent in my membership application and check. They cashed the check but I haven't heard anything from them. It has been several months. It was harder getting endorsed by Limos.com but it seems they are the ones really looking out for the limousine industry. I say that Limos.com has done everything they promised and more. Whoever is running this website should run for director of the NLA!

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Brandy Fuller
Owner S.L.S.

July 31st, 2000, 02:33 AM

Hm-m-m-m-m-m interesting!! I could not even access the website. Message says, "Website Cannot Be Displayed". Could I have done something wrong? I even hit the refresh button and that did nada.

July 31st, 2000, 03:14 AM

You didn't miss anything, let me assure you. Are you sure you used http://www.hostcommunications.com? (http://www.hostcommunications.com) I assume you refer to Host's site. As for NLA, forget it. The site is dark and most of the text cannot be read. If you try to read the LimoScene and try and click to the details of a story you get nothing - nada. The membership listings are totally out of date and erroneous in many respects. The link on the front page to the limousine industry coalition doesn't work because that site has been out of business for at least 3 months now. When you get to Host Communications, look over the financials for the parent. Looks like the old "buy-a-public-shell-and-hype" game. This company isn't going to last long - that's when it will be ripe to take over NLA and get some REAL staff working there.

[This message has been edited by XENEFOX Media Corporation (edited 07-31-2000).]

July 31st, 2000, 03:17 AM

Just dicovered the problem. When you click on the url embedded in my prior messages, the limos.com server picks up the punctutation at the end of the url as if it were part of the web site (Michael, this needs fixed). When you click on the embedded url, then go to the location display in your browser, highlight it and delete the "." or the "?" so that the url ends in just-plain "com." Then you'll be able to access the site.

July 31st, 2000, 04:13 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Starlitelimo:
I have to add my two cents in also. I have been a member of the NLA for two years now and I too have had or noticed many of the same problems listed above. It took me over a year to get my company and website listed on their website. It is not user friendly and for awhile it wasn't even working properly so you couldn't do a search for companies by location or name. I am not impressed. I don't even know if you are supposed to get a new member certificate each year because I never got a new one, the only one I have says 1999. Do they just give a certificate the first year you join? I know I get a new members handbook each year. And while I am on the subject of no response, does anyone else have problems with the California Limousine Association? I sent in my membership application and check. They cashed the check but I haven't heard anything from them. It has been several months. It was harder getting endorsed by Limos.com but it seems they are the ones really looking out for the limousine industry. I say that Limos.com has done everything they promised and more. Whoever is running this website should run for director of the NLA!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Awww...thanks Brandy for the kind words and the vote of confidence. Our site is run by XENEFOX Media Corp, founded by myself, Michael Composto. I am the heart and soul of the operation although I have other employees.

Yes, perhaps a position of Director of the NLA is in my future and would be in their best interests, although it is in my nature to forget about the NLA and just go start a whole new association.

Just kidding.
http://www.limousinesonline.com/ubb/tongue.gif

July 31st, 2000, 10:06 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by XENEFOX Media Corporation:
I know John Sokal (sp?) of Ritz Limousine in Chicago is an officer with the NLA. I can personally vouch that his company responds to email several times daily. However, I am not sure if he frequents these forums. As for the other NLA officers, I don't think they do.

I think Dean Schuler was an officer in the NLA some time ago. He frequents the forums -- Maybe that is the closest we can get?

Michael<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I resigned in October 1999, the Board life was not for me. I found that I liked speaking with the old LOI Members and the people on the Limousine Industry Council much better-they all are very successful, have high limo I.Q.'s, and have been in business twenty years or more. Bob Scott is an ex-newspaperman who works hard and is no phony. I can vouch for him, however you can imagine what he has to put up with. Ask me about this at one of the industry shows-the best stories cannot be put on e-mail. You would not believe what goes on. I still feel strongely that we need a national trade association. Sincerely, Dean Schuler

July 31st, 2000, 10:33 AM

Dean -
There isn't any question but that the industry needs a trade association. However, it needs a strong association, not what we have now. As it stands, the NLA is a social gathering where people build their personal resumes and their company credentials by boasting of being board members, etc. with the NLA. The administrative staff is an abomination. Bob may try hard, but he is still an association executive, more skilled at the political aspects of association management than administration. Bob massages a little here and massages a little there, and then moves on with little or nothing being accomplished. I'm not sure that starting up another association is the way to go, if enough good people can get control of NLA and remake it promptly. If neither can be done, i.e., getting control, or doing something "promptly," then it should be left to die whatever death is going to occur and people who really want to do something with a national association should get moving, or there will be no association at all. But remember, there are interests that are very heavily invested in NLA and the status quo, starting with the staff (what else is new), the current directors and officers, LCT Magazine and a number of larger vendors and manufacturers. NLA serves their personal interests, and making any real changes would be extremely difficult unless some of these interests saw the handwriting on the wall and bolted to join some fresh blood which is willing to work hard and make changes. Trying to knit together the limousine industry is like trying to assemble a coalition of Arab national interests - they've been fighting too long and their interests are too diverse for anything meaningful to happen. Charles Tenney has the clout to transform a national association, or initiate a new one, but right now his interests are also served by the status quo. There are other people similarly situated, but I don't think anybody has the will to stand up, call a spade a spade and be counted.

July 31st, 2000, 02:02 PM

And to top it off....I just received a letter from the NLA stating that their membership fees are rising. As a small operator (3 cars) my fees will rise 50% ($100 to $150). I just renewed a few months ago so I did not hit the increase this time around. Next year I'm out....it's too much money for too little.

July 31st, 2000, 02:13 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jhj:
Dean -
There isn't any question but that the industry needs a trade association. However, it needs a strong association, not what we have now. As it stands, the NLA is a social gathering where people build their personal resumes and their company credentials by boasting of being board members, etc. with the NLA. The administrative staff is an abomination. Bob may try hard, but he is still an association executive, more skilled at the political aspects of association management than administration. Bob massages a little here and massages a little there, and then moves on with little or nothing being accomplished. I'm not sure that starting up another association is the way to go, if enough good people can get control of NLA and remake it promptly. If neither can be done, i.e., getting control, or doing something "promptly," then it should be left to die whatever death is going to occur and people who really want to do something with a national association should get moving, or there will be no association at all. But remember, there are interests that are very heavily invested in NLA and the status quo, starting with the staff (what else is new), the current directors and officers, LCT Magazine and a number of larger vendors and manufacturers. NLA serves their personal interests, and making any real changes would be extremely difficult unless some of these interests saw the handwriting on the wall and bolted to join some fresh blood which is willing to work hard and make changes. Trying to knit together the limousine industry is like trying to assemble a coalition of Arab national interests - they've been fighting too long and their interests are too diverse for anything meaningful to happen. Charles Tenney has the clout to transform a national association, or initiate a new one, but right now his interests are also served by the status quo. There are other people similarly situated, but I don't think anybody has the will to stand up, call a spade a spade and be counted. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well said-it is largely a playground of the limo establishment and LCT. A far cry from the original NLA. In an industry of 20,000+ operators, we deserve better. Sincerely, Dean Schuler

July 31st, 2000, 02:16 PM

You don't understand your role. The members with the biggest stake in what the NLA SHOULD be doing are the larger operators. A 100+ vehicle operation (which should be grossing no less than several million dollars per year) will pay $1,500, or no more than .03% of gross (probably much less). The biggies need lots of $150 members to carry the freight. Hey, look at the value! You can get three NLA stickers for your windows, 3 or 4 (depending upon whether the staff gets their act together or not) editions of the LimoScene, a handy-dandy directory of the 20% of all limousine operators in the country, and a way-cool web site to link to. Remember when NLA was going to offer e-mail boxes to members and create subsidiary web sites for small companies who weren't internet savvy? That sure disappeared in a hurry. Do you want NLA doing YOUR web site? Lots of "deep" ideas from the management company that used to be in gold mining!!! (see http://www.hostcommunications.com)

July 31st, 2000, 06:59 PM

I got the same letter stating the fees are increasing for the NLA. I haven't gotten anything that I can see for my money, has anyone?

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Brandy Fuller
Owner S.L.S.

August 1st, 2000, 05:08 AM

Naturally, as my natural entrepreneurial instincts take over, I am wondering -- What Would You Like To See in a National Trade Association?

The preliminary feedback here (so far) is that the NLA is not doing their monies worth, especially to dictate a dues increase.

As all of us are members of the NLA, so, what would you like to see in a productive association?

For starters, an updated website? Email responsiveness?

Lets exchange some thoughts and ideas on what we all think the trade association should be doing. As my mentors tell me, "focus on the solutions, not the problems".

The NLA tells us that they are active in lawmaking and legislation. We mustn't forget about that, assuming it is true.

Michael

August 1st, 2000, 11:26 AM

Keeping in mind that the scale is dramatcially different, but go to the American Bar Association website and see what it does. A national association can and should have a large education component, consisting of seminars, video tape instructionals, books and the like, concerning all manner of things. A national association could be running chat rooms and listservers, not unlike the discussions that go on at limos.com. A national association should have multiple sections or task forces addressing particular issues, where the members are the participants rather than the paid staff of the association which is always doing someone else's (or their own) bidding. A national association should have a vigorous purchasing program and method of validating certain goods and services, and offering discounts on everything from long distance phone service to office equipment. Although NLA has some meager offerings along these lines, they pale in comparison to true national trade associations. The list, frankly, is endless. Use the net to look at web sites for other national trade associations and you will be amazed at the quality of their on-line presence and the scope of the services they provide to their members.

August 18th, 2000, 05:20 PM

As a small owner/operator I need all the support I can receive that will enhance or support my position in the multitude of issues that impact all companies large or small in this industry, whether on a local, state, regional, or national scope.

However, the recent postings concerning the NLA only reinforce the facts that I can neither afford to waste any of my meager assets on membership fees with no diffinitive return on investment or be assured that with any amount of contributions on my part the NLA can or will benefit mine or the industry's needs or interests.

I, also wonder about the value or equitablilty in giving limos.com member companies specific recognitation for NLA membership when there are significant questions concerning the NLA's value or creditability. Is there the potential for false impressions about a company's professionalism or lack thereof to prospective customers searching for limo service at limos.com because they are or are not members of the NLA?

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lmg@lgtransportation.com

[This message has been edited by larryg (edited 08-22-2000).]

August 19th, 2000, 04:51 AM

I was elected to the NLA Board last January for the Western Region. My intentions was to help make a difference. I am presently serving on the Vendor Liason group. I help members resolve problems with vendors.

Iam very disturbed to see the number of negative comments concerning the NLA. I have been a member for six years. I am a small operator. We have six vehicles.

Anyone can contact me: If you want action? I need to hear from your.
John Sinbaldi
Five Star Limousine Service
Salem, Oregon
1-800-517-9555
My personal e-mail fivestarl@aol.com
Our web address: fivestaroregon.com

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August 19th, 2000, 04:53 AM

I forgot to add one more thing.
Our company was one of the Charter members for the certification program. This program is not going to die with the NLA.

Regards
JOhn

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August 19th, 2000, 06:18 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
I was elected to the NLA Board last January for the Western Region. My intentions was to help make a difference. I am presently serving on the Vendor Liason group. I help members resolve problems with vendors.

Iam very disturbed to see the number of negative comments concerning the NLA. I have been a member for six years. I am a small operator. We have six vehicles.

Anyone can contact me: If you want action? I need to hear from your.
John Sinbaldi
Five Star Limousine Service
Salem, Oregon
1-800-517-9555
My personal e-mail fivestarl@aol.com
Our web address: fivestaroregon.com

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
John, The industry is composed of close to 30,000 operators, not 10,600 like the establishment says. there were that many in 1989 when I did research for Maury Sutton, the publisher for L&C at that time. So the 1700 NLA members are a drop in the bucket relative to the size of the industry. The NLA should be independent of all magazines-a true national trade association. Ask Kirk Taylor about my numbers. Sincerely, Dean Schuler P.S. Rich Guberti and I both told the Board not to endorse any more crooks!! I am referring to Livery Coach-that whole episode was pathetic.

August 19th, 2000, 06:22 AM

August 19th, 2000, 06:33 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dean Schuler:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
I was elected to the NLA Board last January for the Western Region. My intentions was to help make a difference. I am presently serving on the Vendor Liason group. I help members resolve problems with vendors.

Iam very disturbed to see the number of negative comments concerning the NLA. I have been a member for six years. I am a small operator. We have six vehicles.

Anyone can contact me: If you want action? I need to hear from your.
John Sinbaldi
Five Star Limousine Service
Salem, Oregon
1-800-517-9555
My personal e-mail fivestarl@aol.com
Our web address: fivestaroregon.com

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
John, The industry is composed of close to 30,000 operators, not 10,600 like the establishment says. there were that many in 1989 when I did research for Maury Sutton, the publisher for L&C at that time. So the 1700 NLA members are a drop in the bucket relative to the size of the industry. The NLA should be independent of all magazines-a true national trade association. Ask Kirk Taylor about my numbers. Sincerely, Dean Schuler P.S. Rich Guberti and I both told the Board not to endorse any more crooks!! I am referring to Livery Coach-that whole episode was pathetic.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The best training courses utilize video-The Silver level certification course needs a video. Best way to teach!! Dean Schuler

August 19th, 2000, 11:55 AM

Hi Dean

Since you are not registered I hope you see this e-mail. The board is stricly a volunteer effort. You can see my profile on limos-com. So contact me. As I told Joseph, Iam not scratching out a living in the limousine business. I manage a portfolio for a major investment firm. But best of all, I am a baseball umpire. When a vocal fan is questioning everthing you do, I always invite them to join our ranks, put on the uniform and shows us what you can do. The same reason applies to you, I think you should consider running for the board. I feel you could make a difference.

Thanks

John

August 19th, 2000, 01:45 PM

Dean Schuler was already a member of the NLA Board and resigned!!

Right Dean?!

August 19th, 2000, 02:13 PM

I replied privately to John that I would serve anytime and anywhere, but access to the board of NLA is controlled by the nominating committee and they aren't about to put someone on the board who's going to rock their little boat or who may know something and do something other than nod his head in agreement. I also told John that Greg Casteel offered us our money back (obviously to get rid of a vocal critic). As an update - it has now been over a month and we have had no substantive responses to communications to NLA to our questions, nor my request for Bob Scott to call me. These people suck. All they want to do is recruit new members to fill the bank account during their management contract, to try to justify renewing it in the future. Someone has to stop these people, and it ain't going to be anyone on the NLA board as far as I can see. What are YOU going to do about it, John?

August 19th, 2000, 02:18 PM

Dean - John apparently didn't read the thread. Why not put it all in one message and tell us what the NLA board is REALLY like?

August 19th, 2000, 02:26 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dean Schuler:
The best training courses utilize video-The Silver level certification course needs a video. Best way to teach!! Dean Schuler<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, Dean, but what is the purpose if you can't get anything done with the silver certification tests. I'm sitting on a whole bunch of them with no place to send them, and with company pre-certification material, and no place to send it either. Is anyone crazy enough to mail it blind to NLA - you'll never see the stuff again, and nothing will happen. The CTCP requires on going communication as I see it - everytime you add a chauffeur, you have to submit the materials for his/her certification. First, you have to buy the material; second, you have to submit it for grading and approval. How can this ever be accomplished with NLA. Plain and simple, Casteel bailed out and dumped this program knowing full well that he wouldn't then have to take the rap for the shipwreck - and a shipwreck it is!

August 20th, 2000, 04:53 AM

I have been an NLA Board of Director for the past 5 years, and have worked on the Association Liaison Committee since it's inception. It is very disturbing to find so many negative opinions on this forum (this is the first that I have seen this site). I answer all of my e-mails that pertain to business on a daily basis and have not seen any messages from the members on this site. The NLA board of directors are volunteers that are giving back some of their time to the industry (and let's face it, who has that kind of time). It is a daily job that I get great satisfaction from. I can say that on a daily basis I have helped someone in this great industry. I am offended to see that some of your site visitors think of us as idiots and I can tell you that you are welcome to help. The issues are there to solve. Even with 16 Board of Directors, we still have other NLA members working also. Host Communications is our management firm just as Wayne Smith's company was our management firm. Wayne Smith also managed other associations, BUT Wayne Smith always made us feel that we were the only assoiciation that he handled. We are fortunate to have Bob Scott 100%. He does not manage any other associations, BUT the issues that are upon us necessitate that he travel quite a bit just as Wayne Smith would have to do if he was still our management firm. There are 16 board of directors that you can contact should you have a problem, and believe it or not, most of us get our e-mail on a daily basis. I do not open messages that don't pertain to business, so address them properly and we will respond to your needs. Otherwise, we all welcome anyone to run for the board. Just as I am a small operator and want to have everyone's voice heard, I want your voice heard, perhaps you should try to contact some of the board members in the future when you have a problem.
Carolyn Nelson
belairlimo@aol.com

August 20th, 2000, 05:13 AM

Carolyn Nelson - read the forum messages carefully; no one in this forum called or implied that any NLA board member was an idiot. I believe the term "moron" was used to accurately describe the NLA "staff," and we assume as a board member that you know the difference between directors and "staff." The exception, of course, is Ron Sorci, who was called something else, but not an idiot, although that may be accurate, too. Please don't bore anyone with the appellation that if someone wants to help they can "run" for the board of directors. The directors are controlled by the nominating committee and that is a closed nomination process. Why don't you make YOUR contribution an amendment to the by-laws that permits names to be placed in nomination for directors by petition signed by, say, 10 NLA members. Bettcha' it'll never happen. Have you ever read the by-laws --- they are dismal and clearly intend to keep control of NLA closed and held among a very few persons or entities. Is NLA afraid of a little democracy? Bettcha' it is! Just ask, I'll be happy to VOLUNTEER the language of appropriate amendments to the by-laws to open the board to a broader range of members. Everyone listening - I'll let you know if such a request is ever made http://limos.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

August 20th, 2000, 05:39 AM

For those who are interested, Article 5, Section F of the NLA By-Laws deals with "Nomination of Directors." The section, in its entirety, reads as follows: "Thirty (30) days prior to the annual meeting along with the notice of the annual meeting, the NLA office shall mail a copy of of the report of the Nominating Committee to all members. The election shall be done by mailed ballot. The mailing will include the Ballot by a colored card with specific instructions, a "Ballot Only" envelope, the resumes of the chosen slate of nominees and an "NLA Elections" return envelope."
Anbody who was a member will note that members were given six candidates to fill five seats. Wonder who volunteered to be the sacrificial lamb? The procedure does not allow anyone else to run, gives no candidate for election the time to send any communications to the members to thell them why they should vote for him/her. In other words, your choice is "vote or don't vote." Why not change the name of the board of directors to the "Politboro" - elections to both entities were pretty much the same.
The rest of the by-laws are just as riddled with "control" provisions.
Oh, yeah, almost forgot - how does one amend the by-laws? Get a load of this, in Article 14 of the By-Laws: "The Bylaws of the NLA may be amended an any annual meeting, or at any special meeting regularly called for that purpose, or by a Board of Directors meeting, by a simply majority of all voting members of the Board of Directors, or the NLA complete membership if at the annual meeting or special meetings, who are present in person or by proxy." As to the annual meetings, except perhaps for the first year or so, it's my understanding that there has never been a quorum, which requires 10% of NLA members to be present in person or by proxy. A proxy must be filed with the NLA office prior to the commencement of the meeting "in such form as the Board of Directors shall determine." On top of that, a signature card for verification must be on file at the Executive Director's office and available for all meetings. I'm sure that, knowing that, we all want to rush right out and guess what the form of proxy is that the Board will approve and send in our signature cards on some other unknown form. Got the idea, folks? You're not supposed to have any participation in NLA matters - just rubber stamp the Politboro that gets crammed down your throat by the "Nominating Committee." By the way, wonder who the "Nominating Committee" is???? Anyone know? How about you, Carolyn? John??? Anyone?????? Ooooops - not fair calling Bob Scott to ask!!!!!! This isn't "Millionaire," you don't get to "call a fried," and the "audience" sure doesn't know.

August 20th, 2000, 06:24 AM

OK, now, here's a real hoot for you all. Carolyn Nelson, NLA director for five years, is listed in the current NLA directory as being affiliated with Belaire Limousine, Inc. The web site, according to NLA, is www.belairlimo.com. (http://www.belairlimo.com.) Try it - it doesn't do anything. Go to www.networksolutions.com, (http://www.networksolutions.com,) and do a "whois" search and you will find that the "technical contact" for her company's web site is Kirk Taylor - the same genius who gave us - ta ta ta daaaaaa - the NLA web site. By the way John, when the NLA voted in Vancouver to revamp the NLA web site, who did the job go to? Kirk Taylor again?

August 20th, 2000, 09:09 AM

Jim

Does the name Host Interactive Group ring any bells. The name of the person was Ralph Hoggard. Mr. Taylor was in the past. I voted for Mr. Hoggard group. I was very impressed with the presentation and NLA page will look great.
John

------------------

August 20th, 2000, 09:13 AM

Carolyn's web site works fine. I just tried it. Also, I've known and worked with Carolyn for a number of years. Although she considers herself a "small" operator, I'm smaller. Carolyn is truly a caring person who goes out of her way to help people. I don't know if this is indicitive of the other NLA board members, but Carolyn is as good as they get.

August 20th, 2000, 09:28 AM

Well I see things are heating up in the old NLA kitchen. I have a question??? Now that "Santa Casteel" has gifted that great certification program to the NLA, and being that it runs like a well oiled machine, there should not be any problem getting volunteers to administer such a dynamic program and give it to the members for free.
Remember this is for the safety of the industry! Isn't it.
How about some NLA directors stepping up with this one.
Z

August 20th, 2000, 11:01 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Limos4You:
Carolyn's web site works fine. I just tried it. Also, I've known and worked with Carolyn for a number of years. Although she considers herself a "small" operator, I'm smaller. Carolyn is truly a caring person who goes out of her way to help people. I don't know if this is indicitive of the other NLA board members, but Carolyn is as good as they get.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, it does. The server must have been down the several times I tried to access it earlier today. If it's the LimoLink server, that's understandable.

August 20th, 2000, 11:04 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ragu:
Well I see things are heating up in the old NLA kitchen. I have a question??? Now that "Santa Casteel" has gifted that great certification program to the NLA, and being that it runs like a well oiled machine, there should not be any problem getting volunteers to administer such a dynamic program and give it to the members for free.
Remember this is for the safety of the industry! Isn't it.
How about some NLA directors stepping up with this one.
Z<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It seem that some members did not like a "For profit company" managing this program. Mr.Casteel did you a great favor in donating this program to the NLA. First of all, you don't even have to be a member of the NLA to use the program. Second, I have not met anyone who works for free. Even Mother Terhesa got some money for her great work. The cost of this program will be less. Maybe you would like to volunteer to be on the Certification commintee. The pay is great, you get "NADA" but you will get the satisfaction on making a difference.
JOHN

------------------

August 20th, 2000, 11:10 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
Jim

Does the name Host Interactive Group ring any bells. The name of the person was Ralph Hoggard. Mr. Taylor was in the past. I voted for Mr. Hoggard group. I was very impressed with the presentation and NLA page will look great.
John
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course it rings bells, John - it rings gongs, as a matter of fact. It's part of Host Communciations, the former gold mining company that highjacked NLA. How many presentations did the directors get - perhaps ONE!!!!!

August 20th, 2000, 11:17 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ragu:
Well I see things are heating up in the old NLA kitchen. I have a question??? Now that "Santa Casteel" has gifted that great certification program to the NLA, and being that it runs like a well oiled machine, there should not be any problem getting volunteers to administer such a dynamic program and give it to the members for free.
Remember this is for the safety of the industry! Isn't it.
How about some NLA directors stepping up with this one.
Z<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It seem that some members did not like a "For profit company" managing this program. Mr.Casteel did you a great favor in donating this program to the NLA. First of all, you don't even have to be a member of the NLA to use the program. Second, I have not met anyone who works for free. Even Mother Terhesa got some money for her great work. The cost of this program will be less. Maybe you would like to volunteer to be on the Certification commintee. The pay is great, you get "NADA" but you will get the satisfaction on making a difference.
JOHN
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

John you need to check your facts. Pinnacle, as Casteel touted it, was a non-profit entity (IRS 543(c)). The certification program very clearly states that you can be certified ONLY if you are an NLA member - would you expect anything less. Who needs a "certification committee," all one needs is a staff to collect the money, mail out the materials, keep the records on a very elementary computer database, and promote the program. The silver certification requires the administrator to grade the tests, but after silver everything goes to New Jersey and is computer scored. The operative term here is "administer," and that's what NLA can't do. I note that the CTCP program is adminitered by a corporation other than NLA. Who is the owner(s) - Host Communications, or is this version called "Host Certification." There are a host of Hosts, obviously - one for every different method of sucking money out of NLA.

August 20th, 2000, 11:27 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
Jim

Does the name Host Interactive Group ring any bells. The name of the person was Ralph Hoggard. Mr. Taylor was in the past. I voted for Mr. Hoggard group. I was very impressed with the presentation and NLA page will look great.
John
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here's the Host Interactive web site url - note that the address is the same suite of offices as NLA. Did they tell the directors of the relationship? http://www.hostinteractive.com/send.html

August 21st, 2000, 03:29 PM

What everyone needs to realize is the NLA wants your $$$$.Thats what the truth is.Board members are doing whats good for them.And thats ok just admit it.Don't act like its for a higher purpose.Thats why I never joined the local association in MD.This group has always been about a select few and if the rest didn't like it,let them eat cake.And if you go against the grain you will be run out of town.So I choose not to play with these folks and just worry about me.I have seen this in many associations in the past it comes down to getting fat and lazy.They need more office furniture,the executive director needs to travel here and there.He goes on weekend jaunts with his family and all the while he tells you he is doing this for you.So I guess you get use to it or drop your membership the choice is easy, save your money and go on your own weekend jaunt.Just might see someone from your board there too.

August 22nd, 2000, 12:59 PM

JHJ I for the most part agree with what has been said. I to was against the way the certification with Casteel was done, and there is a problem with some of the directors but I must defend Carolyn Nelson's position. I had a problem with a leasing company that is on the east coast of south Florida that I probally should not name here, (No not Federated). Carolyn did the best she could when I filed a grievance and worked at it until at a stand still, her next step was to the NLA vendor complaint committee, I have not heard anything since, that was May they did nothing, never even called me. The worse part is they will continue to be NLA trade members and be at the shows and continue to screw people. Point being there should be more board members that want to fight for whats right and give the rest of the board static when needed. Stay tuned for the nominations for the upcoming election, this will be very interesting as I know who is going to run.
As far as the ITLA I joined they asked me to be on a committee, I accepted and it has been a great learning experience, but they do listen to the Limo people. As far as my last report the 1689 bill was accomplished jointly. Another thing you need to remember many companies are diversifying and that with the ITLA you get much needed information for all parts of the industry. The NLA turned their back on me when we would no longer back 1689 with section two in it because the way it was written if a company did not need a license in there home base section 2 would allow that company to go to a licensed area free hand, the coalition attorney confirmed that on a conference call. So that is a little info on the ITLA, I know Carolyn will not agree with me either but I like them guys and they treat our committee with respect. I also believe everyone should join and make their own decisions after a period of time. When they asked our opinion if the should be endorsing trade members, we told them know and its not happening. If your a yes man and brown noser you will get along fine with most of the NLA group. When you start waves they balk at you. Bob Scott is also a decent guy, he just walked into a buzz saw.

August 23rd, 2000, 05:28 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by GJM Tampa:
Stay tuned for the nominations for the upcoming election, this will be very interesting as I know who is going to run.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who is going to "run" is whomever the nominating committee decides is going to run, and there's no such thing as "run" since you get no choice in your vote. See my posts on the by-laws and the last election. I think the jury is out on Bob Scott because the only times he's ever talked to me is when I refused to get off the phone until he did. I've had an e-mail in for him to call me since July 29, and no response. He may have had good intentions, but he's part of the problem now, not part of the solution. Besides, he knows I've taken dead aim and declared my intention to work to get rid of Host Communications as a management company, so he knows which side his bread is buttered on. I believe there are all kinds of violations of the by-laws going on with the current board, delegation to Host Communications, and the way NLA operates - and nobody wants that Pandora's Box opened. I did not impugn Carolyn Nelson except for my comments on the somnolence of the board of directors generally, i.e., that they are not really watching the store, think they are immune from criticism because they are "volunteers" doing work that they think no one else will do, and they are a rather hapless bunch in the hands of Host Communications. I DID impugn Ron Sorci's conduct, however.

August 23rd, 2000, 03:33 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jhj:
John you need to check your facts. Pinnacle, as Casteel touted it, was a non-profit entity (IRS 543(c)). The certification program very clearly states that you can be certified ONLY if you are an NLA member - would you expect anything less. Who needs a "certification committee," all one needs is a staff to collect the money, mail out the materials, keep the records on a very elementary computer database, and promote the program. The silver certification requires the administrator to grade the tests, but after silver everything goes to New Jersey and is computer scored. The operative term here is "administer," and that's what NLA can't do. I note that the CTCP program is adminitered by a corporation other than NLA. Who is the owner(s) - Host Communications, or is this version called "Host Certification." There are a host of Hosts, obviously - one for every different method of sucking money out of NLA.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sorry Ragu, but Pinnacle was not claiming to be a non profit. By the way, non profits need to make money. Take credit unions, they are non profits because they have no stock holders but they need to make money to provide services. The more money they make, the means passing on savings to their members. The same will go for the certification program.

John

August 23rd, 2000, 03:42 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jhj:
John you need to check your facts. Pinnacle, as Casteel touted it, was a non-profit entity (IRS 543(c)). The certification program very clearly states that you can be certified ONLY if you are an NLA member - would you expect anything less. Who needs a "certification committee," all one needs is a staff to collect the money, mail out the materials, keep the records on a very elementary computer database, and promote the program. The silver certification requires the administrator to grade the tests, but after silver everything goes to New Jersey and is computer scored. The operative term here is "administer," and that's what NLA can't do. I note that the CTCP program is adminitered by a corporation other than NLA. Who is the owner(s) - Host Communications, or is this version called "Host Certification." There are a host of Hosts, obviously - one for every different method of sucking money out of NLA.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sorry Ragu, but Pinnacle was not claiming to be a non profit. By the way, non profits need to make money. Take credit unions, they are non profits because they have no stock holders but they need to make money to provide services. The more money they make, the means passing on savings to their members. The same will go for the certification program.

John <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do I detect in that response that the limited liability company set up to handle the certification program, for which NLA is the fig leaf, is a profit-making entity? And who, pray tell, are the holders of the equity interests in that company? If you're right about Casteel and Pinnacle, then I understand why Casteel dumped it into NLA's lap, since you can't make expenses by certifying 5,000 drivers in 4 years at the rates Pinnacle was charging.

August 24th, 2000, 01:41 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jhj:
Do I detect in that response that the limited liability company set up to handle the certification program, for which NLA is the fig leaf, is a profit-making entity? And who, pray tell, are the holders of the equity interests in that company? If you're right about Casteel and Pinnacle, then I understand why Casteel dumped it into NLA's lap, since you can't make expenses by certifying 5,000 drivers in 4 years at the rates Pinnacle was charging.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Many non profits use LLC's to offer profit services. This provides two main functions:
Shields the non-profit from liabilty issues that may arise from the venture and provides a legal way for the non-profit to make money without losing its non-profit tax status. Since you are an attorney, why don't you check on the business filing records. After all, they are public records.

------------------

August 24th, 2000, 02:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
Many non profits use LLC's to offer profit services. This provides two main functions:
Shields the non-profit from liabilty issues that may arise from the venture and provides a legal way for the non-profit to make money without losing its non-profit tax status. Since you are an attorney, why don't you check on the business filing records. After all, they are public records.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

C'mon, John. We could play cat and mouse through 50 states to check on those records. Sounds like there's something to hide. All I asked was, who hold the equity interest? If it's NLA, then I understand the legal motivation. If it's not all NLA, then we should know why NLA is acting as the "fig leaf," and for whom or what.

August 24th, 2000, 02:26 PM

Some of the comments extolling Greg Casteel's virtues and generosity to the NLA seem to have missed a point that was made earlier - that point being that the original contract between the NLA and Greg Casteel as President of Pinnacle was signed while Mr. Casteel still held office in the NLA. ISN'T THIS A COMPLETE CONFLICT OF INTEREST? Why did the NLA board allow this to happen? Isn't it in direct conflict with the NLA Bylaws?

August 24th, 2000, 05:10 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jhj:
C'mon, John. We could play cat and mouse through 50 states to check on those records. Sounds like there's something to hide. All I asked was, who hold the equity interest? If it's NLA, then I understand the legal motivation. If it's not all NLA, then we should know why NLA is acting as the "fig leaf," and for whom or what.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gosh Jim

I would think you would look up the entity in the State of residence of the NLA office. .Better yet, why not call the office and ask for a copy. If you are not successful in obtaining the document, please e-mail me and I will get you a copy after all, its a public record.
John

------------------

August 25th, 2000, 12:54 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
Gosh Jim

I would think you would look up the entity in the State of residence of the NLA office. .Better yet, why not call the office and ask for a copy. If you are not successful in obtaining the document, please e-mail me and I will get you a copy after all, its a public record.
John
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gosh, John - why would I do that. I've never known Kentucky to be the state of choice for the organization of any business association, and any lawyer worth his salt would organize an LLC in Delaware or Nevada. Besides, NLA is incorporated in the District of Columbia - another forum of choice for business associations - NOT! Besides, what is filed with the state likely does not answer the question as to who holds the equity. Since you're being so helpful, please send a copy of the organizing document filed with the state, as well as the operating agreement. While you're at it, please also send the document upon which the nominating committee bases its authority to nominate directors by geographic region. Also, while you're at it, find out why Bob Scott hasn't called me since I asked him to do so on July 29. And, oh, yes, find out why we've had no substantive response to our quiestions concerning submission of documents for certification since July 17. You don't really believe anybody's going to provide those documents do you, John? As to why I should not call the NLA office and ask for the documents - read the thread and see how successful anybody is at getting a response from the morons in Lexington.

August 25th, 2000, 03:45 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GJM Tampa:

I had a problem with a leasing company that is on the east coast of south Florida that I probally should not name here, (No not Federated).

GJM,
Can you e-mail me please? I am wondering if we dealt with the same leasing company. I need some advice.

August 26th, 2000, 06:35 AM

For everyone who thinks we are not doing a good job, there are plenty of committees that we need help on. Feel free to step up to the plate. We are also looking for 2 people to run for the board of directors in the central region.

As far as the certification program, the first thing the board of directors did when we took it over was to vote that anyone
could join the program. So you non-members of the NLA the program is open to you. We are also looking for your constructive ideas on how to make the program better. Be realistic though, it can not be free.

The NLA has becone a driving force on capital hill and the outcome will be noticed in the near future. The unfortunate part is non-menbers will still benefit from our hard work and still sit back and say we do nothing for them.

I dedicate a lot of time to both the NLA and the ILA of which I am president of. When I go to an NLA board meeting, I am paying the airfair and my exspenses. It's not a free ride like you think it is.

We listened to what you said and the website will be totally revamped. There will be a consumer section and a member section. The new site will also be interactive. Phase one should be completed by late fall. Also the membership list is current.

I beleieve in this industry, my fellow board members and the members of the association. It seemes to be the same 3 or 4 people are making the negative comments, some who are not even members. That still leaves 1500+ members that must thing were are doing a decent job. Don't get me wrong we are not perfect, but we are 16 people giving up our time to try to make this a better industry for EVERYBODY.

August 26th, 2000, 08:20 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ritzlimo@aol.com:
For everyone who thinks we are not doing a good job, there are plenty of committees that we need help on. Feel free to step up to the plate. We are also looking for 2 people to run for the board of directors in the central region.

As far as the certification program, the first thing the board of directors did when we took it over was to vote that anyone
could join the program. So you non-members of the NLA the program is open to you. We are also looking for your constructive ideas on how to make the program better. Be realistic though, it can not be free.

The NLA has becone a driving force on capital hill and the outcome will be noticed in the near future. The unfortunate part is non-menbers will still benefit from our hard work and still sit back and say we do nothing for them.

I dedicate a lot of time to both the NLA and the ILA of which I am president of. When I go to an NLA board meeting, I am paying the airfair and my exspenses. It's not a free ride like you think it is.

We listened to what you said and the website will be totally revamped. There will be a consumer section and a member section. The new site will also be interactive. Phase one should be completed by late fall. Also the membership list is current.

I beleieve in this industry, my fellow board members and the members of the association. It seemes to be the same 3 or 4 people are making the negative comments, some who are not even members. That still leaves 1500+ members that must thing were are doing a decent job. Don't get me wrong we are not perfect, but we are 16 people giving up our time to try to make this a better industry for EVERYBODY.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, this is the message I've been wondering why it hasn't come for several weeks. We get the same old theme - I'm just a volunteer spending my good money to better the industry and - FINALLY - the dismissive wave of the hand, those who are complaining are a disgruntled few. In other words - F**K OFF. At least these people are striking their colors now instead of being two-faced - but it is at least clear that no changes will come at NLA with this kind of person on the board. Waive the two year membership requirement or change the by-laws to eliminate the 2-year membership requirement and I'll send in my resume. In the meantime, what is the Central Region???? Where does this exist in the by-laws? For anyone reading this thread, I trust this is another demonstration of either the ignorance of the by-laws by the board, or their intention to impose their own requirements and the hell with the by-laws, and of the general arrogance of most, if not all, of the board members. Why doesn't the board appoint a by-laws committee to revampt the by-laws since they're as dismal as the web site. I'll be happy to volunteer for that committee - in fact, I'll chair it, or serve as a committee of One - whatever suits the board. OK, folks - now let's wait for the reply to that suggestion and offer.

August 26th, 2000, 03:11 PM

Well, there is probably always going to be a club for a few, run by a few and benefiting just a few of the few. But in terms of the limousine industry, times are changing and the NLA hasn't changed except to hire an inept firm that knows nada about the business it claims to represent. There is another organization that bears some thought, it is the American Limousine Association and they can be reached at 888-252-0700 for information or questions.
By the way, I won't be wasting any more of my money on the NLA.
Melanie
Champagne Limousines

August 26th, 2000, 04:40 PM

It's obvious you guys just don't get it and never will. It is not an association run by an elite few for the benefit of a few. Every time we win a victory on a state or federal level it is for everbody. Why don't you people use some of that energy to tell us what you want and what you need from an organization. It's amazing Joseph, you have been in the business less then 2 years and seem to have all the answers.

August 27th, 2000, 04:56 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by RitzLimo:
It's obvious you guys just don't get it and never will. It is not an association run by an elite few for the benefit of a few. Every time we win a victory on a state or federal level it is for everbody. Why don't you people use some of that energy to tell us what you want and what you need from an organization. It's amazing Joseph, you have been in the business less then 2 years and seem to have all the answers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For participants in this forum, RitzLimo is John Sokol, an otherwise unidentified member of the board of directors of NLA. Although our company has been in the limousine business less than two years, I have represented limousine interests for quite some time before that. I have been involved in the financing and refinancing of such companies, and the financial analaysis of limousine companies. I also have been involved in the merger and acquisition of limousine and other transportation companies. As to having ALL of the answers - yes, you are correct. As to those matters on which I have opined in these forums, I DO have ALL of the answers, for those matters are the administrative ineptness of NLA staff, the self-dealing of NLA and its directors, the lack of understanding of the NLA by-laws and adherence to them by the board and NLA staff, and the manner of doing business of NLA. These are matters that anyone with extensive business and legal experience can address. In my case, I have 30 years of such experience, including litigation of such matters. I also actually worked for a major national trade association, and have either owned or represented companies with memberships in dozens of others. In short, I know how a trade association should behave, I know what the good ones do and how they do it (and I've done it), and I know what the law is and how to apply by-laws. Any other questions, John? I'm likely to have the answers to ALL of those that you migh ask, too. By the way, John since you've been hanging around watching the threads in these forums, how come no NLA director has answered any of the numerous questions I posed to them directly in these forums? Either they don't know ANY of the answers, OR the answers will reveal NLA and the board to be what it is and they are.
Finally, I'd like to comment on your elitism, for it is astounding, but it is also very revealing of the mindset of the NLA directors and staff. Pay attention, folks out there. John has finally told us that we should quit carping and bitching about the way he and his cohorts are running the NLA because if and when NLA ever has a success, EVERYONE in the industry benefits. By this argument, we don't need an association, except for the obvious, to fund what the directors want to do. All we need is for a few people to get together, decide what's "best" for the industry, and then let them do what they think is "best" because we all benefit even if we aren't paying the freight. This theory, carried to its logical conclusion, would argue that there is no need to vote in any election because only a very few need to do so because they know what's "best" and everyone will benefit even if they don't vote. WHEWWWWW! We need a whole board-full of Sokols, then NLA doesn't need ANY members - we just sit back for free and let the Sokol clones decide and do what's best, so we have no right to carp and bitch. Change will never come to NLA because of the staggered director's terms it takes 3 years to change the whole board - and who can tolerate this kind of nonsense long enough for that to happen. Dean Schuler, where are you? How long were you able to tolerate the board of directors? The guy who doesn't "get it" and "never will" is John Sokol and his ilk.

August 27th, 2000, 06:43 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jhj:
For participants in this forum, RitzLimo is John Sokol, an otherwise unidentified member of the board of directors of NLA. Although our company has been in the limousine business less than two years, I have represented limousine interests for quite some time before that. I have been involved in the financing and refinancing of such companies, and the financial analaysis of limousine companies. I also have been involved in the merger and acquisition of limousine and other transportation companies. As to having ALL of the answers - yes, you are correct. As to those matters on which I have opined in these forums, I DO have ALL of the answers, for those matters are the administrative ineptness of NLA staff, the self-dealing of NLA and its directors, the lack of understanding of the NLA by-laws and adherence to them by the board and NLA staff, and the manner of doing business of NLA. These are matters that anyone with extensive business and legal experience can address. In my case, I have 30 years of such experience, including litigation of such matters. I also actually worked for a major national trade association, and have either owned or represented companies with memberships in dozens of others. In short, I know how a trade association should behave, I know what the good ones do and how they do it (and I've done it), and I know what the law is and how to apply by-laws. Any other questions, John? I'm likely to have the answers to ALL of those that you migh ask, too. By the way, John since you've been hanging around watching the threads in these forums, how come no NLA director has answered any of the numerous questions I posed to them directly in these forums? Either they don't know ANY of the answers, OR the answers will reveal NLA and the board to be what it is and they are.
Finally, I'd like to comment on your elitism, for it is astounding, but it is also very revealing of the mindset of the NLA directors and staff. Pay attention, folks out there. John has finally told us that we should quit carping and bitching about the way he and his cohorts are running the NLA because if and when NLA ever has a success, EVERYONE in the industry benefits. By this argument, we don't need an association, except for the obvious, to fund what the directors want to do. All we need is for a few people to get together, decide what's "best" for the industry, and then let them do what they think is "best" because we all benefit even if we aren't paying the freight. This theory, carried to its logical conclusion, would argue that there is no need to vote in any election because only a very few need to do so because they know what's "best" and everyone will benefit even if they don't vote. WHEWWWWW! We need a whole board-full of Sokols, then NLA doesn't need ANY members - we just sit back for free and let the Sokol clones decide and do what's best, so we have no right to carp and bitch. Change will never come to NLA because of the staggered director's terms it takes 3 years to change the whole board - and who can tolerate this kind of nonsense long enough for that to happen. Dean Schuler, where are you? How long were you able to tolerate the board of directors? The guy who doesn't "get it" and "never will" is John Sokol and his ilk.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
John was just coming on the Board when I was leaving. He seemed to be a fairly decent guy at the time, and definitely not a yes man. ( Chicago meeting October 1999 ) To answer honestly, it was not my cup of tea from day one. I was on the Board from June 1997 until my resignation was accepted in November 1999. Sincerely, Dean Schuler

August 27th, 2000, 08:02 AM

Hey JHJ you have some strong comments and issues that is why I'm watching the ITLA's movements. There is some people that have joined that seem to be making a difference, and the ITLA seems to listen the quick newsletters are very good. I still say that not all the NLA board is bad, I just think that the real good ones give up. Lets get the Dean Shulers back in there, mix in an Allan Fisher from Atlanta, Jon Chester from California, Joe Cirruzzo from NY, Don Kensey from NJ somebody strong from Florida, hey Palie, Mongello what about you guys somebody tell them, (Don't even think Rick Gonzales from Florida, talk about own agenda)Leave Carolyn Nelson and JHJ in one year you will be glad to join this strong crew there nobody's patsy's.

August 27th, 2000, 10:28 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ragu:
Hey JHJ you have some strong comments and issues that is why I'm watching the ITLA's movements. There is some people that have joined that seem to be making a difference, and the ITLA seems to listen the quick newsletters are very good. I still say that not all the NLA board is bad, I just think that the real good ones give up. Lets get the Dean Shulers back in there, mix in an Allan Fisher from Atlanta, Jon Chester from California, Joe Cirruzzo from NY, Don Kensey from NJ somebody strong from Florida, hey Palie, Mongello what about you guys somebody tell them, (Don't even think Rick Gonzales from Florida, talk about own agenda)Leave Carolyn Nelson and JHJ in one year you will be glad to join this strong crew there nobody's patsy's.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have not yet had the opportunity to bash ALL of the NLA board members. But if they continue to come on line one at a time in these forums and continue to trill the party line, I guess eventually I'll cover them all. Actually, John Sinibaldi and I have had a private e-mail exchange that has been civil and, I hope, helpful, and I think I only bashed him when he fell silent in the face of some comments that I expected him to respond to - although he claims it was a normal delay, which I accept. But note that even John has not responded to the hard questions I have been posing. But there is tremendous pressure on these guys to toe the line and remain part of the "club," so you really can't expect much. I'm sure that the "club" will never let me get through the nominating committee, so I may have to play the Thomas Paine role and keep kicking asses. It's a messy job and you don't make any friends, but someone should do it. There are others who haven't checked in yet - are they lurking or have they not discovered limos.com? - Robert Bellagamba, Concorde Limousine; Dominique Champion, TAI Limousine; Carl Geiger, Atlantic Limousine; Marion MCormack, Sterlin Limousines; Sara McLean, Limousine & Chauffeured Transportation; Alan Melton, East Coast Transportation; David Seelinger, Empire International; Ron Sorci, Precept (whom I'm sure can't find the internet let alone limos.com); and Gary Tonkin, Sky Mountain Limousine. Maybe they've agreed to parade themselves one at a time to tell us how they are unpaid volunteers working for the good of the industry and that only a vocal few are disgruntled. Think any one of them will tackle the questions I've been asking - NAHHHHHH, don't bet on it. Hey, who knows, maybe one day Bob Scott will respond to my e-mail - but don't bet on that either. Any one want to meet in Atlantic City to organize a proxy effort for the next annual meeting. Proxies from 150 company/members will control the annual meeting - assuming the board will tell us what form of proxy they will approve (NOT) and how to register signatures (NOT).

August 27th, 2000, 10:52 AM

August 27th, 2000, 11:00 AM

August 27th, 2000, 12:37 PM

If Mr. (Ms?) jhj ever does run for a director seat I hope you remember to use a good alias so people won't know you are the same bitter pill with a grudge against NLA. By the way, some companys are members that always want things to be better but they don't cry and try to bash everybody. My opinion won't make a supersmart lawyer know everything lawyer like you any money but you can bash me too now.

August 27th, 2000, 12:58 PM

So folks, I've read most of the comments, and I have to ask the question? Why are you members???? We have a group that does nothing, and gives nothing and is raising it's rates to give you this lack of service, so why aren't you leaving? Why is this website giving NLA any creedance as being a positive to be a member? Why would anyone want to join (I'm not going to). Frankly, many of these orgainizations give nothing to the average person, yet try to say that it's a good thing to be a member! And none police their members, so any bum or any of the rip off, fly by night operators can be a member also, as long as they pay their bucks! Why would you want to be known as an affliate?

August 27th, 2000, 01:07 PM

Hey limosrus2 maybe you should check out the ITLA, it really is a very good association you get very good info about all divisions of transportation.
JHJ I do know Gary Tonkin its his first year he will be better the second year if some of my suggestions come forward.
JHJ you are pretty tuff on this bunch but thats what forums are for, you made good points and someone should supply an answer, thats all.

August 27th, 2000, 02:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by XENEFOX Media Corporation:
Dean Schuler was already a member of the NLA Board and resigned!!

Right Dean?!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dean, tell these people the truth about your resignation.

August 27th, 2000, 02:58 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by lizfj:
So folks, I've read most of the comments, and I have to ask the question? Why are you members???? We have a group that does nothing, and gives nothing and is raising it's rates to give you this lack of service, so why aren't you leaving? Why is this website giving NLA any creedance as being a positive to be a member? Why would anyone want to join (I'm not going to). Frankly, many of these orgainizations give nothing to the average person, yet try to say that it's a good thing to be a member! And none police their members, so any bum or any of the rip off, fly by night operators can be a member also, as long as they pay their bucks! Why would you want to be known as an affliate? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the answer to that is obvious. With 30,000 limousine operators in the country, and a great many of them unethical slimeballs, it helps to be able to claim that you are a member of an industry association that at least has a code of ethics, and you can feel better about yourself and your company and hope that your customers feel better about you too. I think that is what most members cling to, and that is what makes it even more disappointing that NLA is not at all what it could be - just look at the thousands of industry associations in this country and what they do. We'll remain a member if for no other reason - we can lay claim to the Code of Ethics and distinguish ourselves from those who won't pay a meager several hundred dollars to be a part of what should be the best part of the industry. And we are. This isn't an issue of what is NLA doing for the members, although NLA can do much if it wanted to and if it had the staff competence to do so, which it doesn't. It's about incompetence, self-dealing and self-aggrandizement by people who should be above that - who have elitist attitudes that they know better than the members what is best for the industry. And for the participant who doesn't want to rock any boats, don't worry, I have no personal intention of ever running for NLA director - I can be far more effective, as Lyndon Johnson once described it (with apologies to the ladies and sensitive others), on the "outside of the tent pissing in" rather than on "the inside pissing out."

August 27th, 2000, 03:31 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jhj:
Michael - how about it? Should the NLA logo that limos.com puts on member profiles also include and ITLA logo for those that belong. Why just NLA? Does NLA have some kind of special status at limos.com? Will you put an ITLA logo on the profile of a company that belongs?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LIMOS.com joined the NLA because we believed in the "Code Of Ethics" which it posts, ethics which we believe lack in the industry.

We recognize the NLA icon because of these "Code of Ethics", and the hopes that all of the NLA members honor those same ethics. I know we do. As for some of the NLA members, several of them are deadbeats, owe us money, lied, and don't pay their bills. However, with 2,000 some NLA members, such should be expected. However, the lack of email responsiveness is unacceptable.

As for the ITLA, that isn't a problem recognizing them as well. We can recognize that affiliate-- although I can't have it done at this very moment -- it is something that can be added in our next redevelopment.

Also, Limos.com is not "exclusively" recognizing the NLA -- we are soley interested in giving consumers as much information as possible to make educated choices, whether that be NLA, ITLA, CTCP, or ALA.

I can say, our choice to recognize the NLA has brought much $$$ to the NLA -- I can count on 5 different occasions, we've had Limos.com Members join the NLA soley for the recognition. These are instances which I know of.

Michael

[This message has been edited by XENEFOX Media Corporation (edited 08-27-2000).]

August 27th, 2000, 03:44 PM

Also, in reference to a prior question why several of the other NLA directors haven't "chimed-in" here at LIMOS.com is they simply just may not know about it.

Limos.com does not advertise (for the most part) to the limousine trade journals, LCT and Limo-Digest. We haven't had too. 99% of our advertising dollars goes to consumer traffic; generating customers for our members.

We are quite active in distributing press releases to the trade magazines; LCT recognizes our press releases and prints them (usually).

Limo-Digest ignores Limos.com and won't acknowledge any press release we send to them. I wonder if this could be because LCT Magazine sponsored Limos.com years ago?

So there is good reason why some of the NLA Directors aren't here -- the trade journals don't get our advertising dollars, while some, just ignore us. If we aren't in the magazines, some just don't hear about it.

So far, word of mouth has been our ad dollar. At last check, 1.5 million hits is pretty standard for LIMOS.com.

August 27th, 2000, 04:08 PM

August 27th, 2000, 04:45 PM

Please remember Rules of the Road in the Forum -- no name calling, character attacks, and insults -- please stick to facts only.

This will foster more responses to questions and queries. Name calling and other attacks of character my create hesitation from others who want to defend the NLA or speak out.

Thanks for understanding and abiding.

August 28th, 2000, 10:51 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dean Schuler:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Kay Hoskins:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by XENEFOX Media Corporation:
Dean Schuler was already a member of the NLA Board and resigned!!

Right Dean?!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dean, tell these people the truth about your resignation.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Happy to! I hung in long enough after the Livery Coach fiasco to prove a point, I knew going in that the October 1999 meeting was my last, I had made up my mind. The stuff that went on at that meeting was the final straw. By the way Kay, why don't you explain that when you are elected to the Board all of a sudden you are quoted in LCT, your picture starts to pop up in that publication, and you somehow get nominated for operator of the year. In other words, you become an instant industry expert. Wow!! Had I known this, I would have run for the Board years ago, thus by-passing the knowledge curve and the school of hard knocks. Sincerely, Dean Schuler<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
P.S. I have been a writer and researcher for the industry since 1986. I wrote for Williams Motor Works Newsletter 1986-1991, and worked for the master, Maury Sutton, the legendary publisher of LCT 1987-1991 as Southern Correspondent and Researcher. By the way, Ty Bobit made the industry in the 1980's. Ty had the foresight to develop LCT and to host the first industry trade show, thus unifying the limousine industry. I read all limousine magazines( there are three now ), all limousine newspapers, and just finished a term sitting on N.A.D.A., the organization that sets used values for limousines. I take what I can use from all these sources, and at times am critical of all of them. I am especially hard on Limousine Digest, and I am one of the founders. ( Editorial Founder ) I just think we all need to do better, and it is the opinion of many veterans that correspond with me that our industry is not being run the proper way. There are many of us now, and we need to advance our interests in Washington, to protect and grow our industry-the BEST PROFESSION in America. To sum up, let's clean house and take our proper place in the SUN!!!!!!!!!

August 28th, 2000, 12:47 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dean Schuler:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dean Schuler:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Kay Hoskins:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by XENEFOX Media Corporation:
Dean Schuler was already a member of the NLA Board and resigned!!

Right Dean?!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dean, tell these people the truth about your resignation.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Happy to! I hung in long enough after the Livery Coach fiasco to prove a point, I knew going in that the October 1999 meeting was my last, I had made up my mind. The stuff that went on at that meeting was the final straw. By the way Kay, why don't you explain that when you are elected to the Board all of a sudden you are quoted in LCT, your picture starts to pop up in that publication, and you somehow get nominated for operator of the year. In other words, you become an instant industry expert. Wow!! Had I known this, I would have run for the Board years ago, thus by-passing the knowledge curve and the school of hard knocks. Sincerely, Dean Schuler<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
P.S. I have been a writer and researcher for the industry since 1986. I wrote for Williams Motor Works Newsletter 1986-1991, and worked for the master, Maury Sutton, the legendary publisher of LCT 1987-1991 as Southern Correspondent and Researcher. By the way, Ty Bobit made the industry in the 1980's. Ty had the foresight to develop LCT and to host the first industry trade show, thus unifying the limousine industry. I read all limousine magazines( there are three now ), all limousine newspapers, and just finished a term sitting on N.A.D.A., the organization that sets used values for limousines. I take what I can use from all these sources, and at times am critical of all of them. I am especially hard on Limousine Digest, and I am one of the founders. ( Editorial Founder ) I just think we all need to do better, and it is the opinion of many veterans that correspond with me that our industry is not being run the proper way. There are many of us now, and we need to advance our interests in Washington, to protect and grow our industry-the BEST PROFESSION in America. To sum up, let's clean house and take our proper place in the SUN!!!!!!!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
P.P.S. Add to that Circulation Consultant for Limousine Digest for ten years and writer for ten years. I have counted the number of operators in the country since 1989. In addition myself and other veterans have researched the industry in every aspect for over twenty years.

August 28th, 2000, 03:37 PM

Michael you have done a good job with your business, but let me say this, the NLA board is reading this forum they know its here its just that they have probally been told not to answer. It works that way and even though I think JHJ has really been hard, most questions don't really have answers. I have another question for the NLA about their certification program. If it is about safety and they support Cadillac & Ford with CMC & QVM how can a company and its drivers be certified when they are running 175 inch cars, Navigators, Suburbans and anything else not accepted by Ford & Caddilac thats what has been going on from day one? For that matter how can the NLA or LC & T stop coach builders that are not QVM/CMC from being in their shows, not allow them to be NLA members then allow the company that runs those cars to be members? Also I wonder who is going to be on their new certification committee? Bet its nobody that will ask to many questions or give them imput they don't want.

August 28th, 2000, 03:52 PM

Oh yea Michael your right in one respect, companies have joined or remain members because those little icons that tell potential customers they belong to all these organizations means something sometimes. For most its strictly for advertisement purposes. I am not trying to be overly negative to the NLA but there is some real good arguments here. As for Dean Schuler he was one of the guys that gave up the fight and could not fight the system alone. You know there was a group of guys that fought that Pinnacle thing a brought attention to what was wrong before you knew it there was associations all over that joined in, they did it because it was wrong spoke up for the little guys, these are the people that could truley assist the NLA.
Hey Michael see ya
Z

August 29th, 2000, 02:11 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ragu:
Michael you have done a good job with your business, but let me say this, the NLA board is reading this forum they know its here its just that they have probally been told not to answer. It works that way and even though I think JHJ has really been hard, most questions don't really have answers. I have another question for the NLA about their certification program. If it is about safety and they support Cadillac & Ford with CMC & QVM how can a company and its drivers be certified when they are running 175 inch cars, Navigators, Suburbans and anything else not accepted by Ford & Caddilac thats what has been going on from day one? For that matter how can the NLA or LC & T stop coach builders that are not QVM/CMC from being in their shows, not allow them to be NLA members then allow the company that runs those cars to be members? Also I wonder who is going to be on their new certification committee? Bet its nobody that will ask to many questions or give them imput they don't want.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
**********
Our company only uses Qvm rated vehicles. We were one of the charter companies to join the certifcation program when it started. I have chose to serve on the certification committee. One of the issues I feel strongly for is a certified company must comply with the use of QVM or CMC vehicles. It will take time to allow the phase out. Not sure my thoughts will come to past, but at least you know my stance. The reason I support this is simply, "When the GM or Lincoln give the ok that these vehicles are safe to extend to those lenghts, then I will buy one."
John

------------------

August 29th, 2000, 02:27 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ragu:
Michael you have done a good job with your business, but let me say this, the NLA board is reading this forum they know its here its just that they have probally been told not to answer. It works that way and even though I think JHJ has really been hard, most questions don't really have answers. I have another question for the NLA about their certification program. If it is about safety and they support Cadillac & Ford with CMC & QVM how can a company and its drivers be certified when they are running 175 inch cars, Navigators, Suburbans and anything else not accepted by Ford & Caddilac thats what has been going on from day one? For that matter how can the NLA or LC & T stop coach builders that are not QVM/CMC from being in their shows, not allow them to be NLA members then allow the company that runs those cars to be members? Also I wonder who is going to be on their new certification committee? Bet its nobody that will ask to many questions or give them imput they don't want.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
**********
Our company only uses Qvm rated vehicles. We were one of the charter companies to join the certifcation program when it started. I have chose to serve on the certification committee. One of the issues I feel strongly for is a certified company must comply with the use of QVM or CMC vehicles. It will take time to allow the phase out. Not sure my thoughts will come to past, but at least you know my stance. The reason I support this is simply, "When the GM or Lincoln give the ok that these vehicles are safe to extend to those lenghts, then I will buy one."
John
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

John -
I'm not sure that I knew or focused on the fact that you are on the Certification Committee. Since it's been over a month that we can get no substantive response from NLA staff on certification submissions, and Greg Casteel offered us a refund, can you arrange the refund? Obviously, NLA staff does not communicate so it's impossible to do it through them. And for those participants in this forum, don't even think about sending money to NLA for certification until you contact me by private e-mail. If John can't get our refund, we're ready to file suit against the company that's behind the NLA fig-leaf to get our refund.

August 29th, 2000, 07:41 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jhj:
John -
I'm not sure that I knew or focused on the fact that you are on the Certification Committee. Since it's been over a month that we can get no substantive response from NLA staff on certification submissions, and Greg Casteel offered us a refund, can you arrange the refund? Obviously, NLA staff does not communicate so it's impossible to do it through them. And for those participants in this forum, don't even think about sending money to NLA for certification until you contact me by private e-mail. If John can't get our refund, we're ready to file suit against the company that's behind the NLA fig-leaf to get our refund.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi Jim
I just volunteered to be on the comittee last week. But I will bring your concerns to the Certification company.
As for others on this forum, feel free to contact me by priviate e-mail or call me at 1-800-517-9555 and I will give you the results on how this program has helped our company during the past three years.
John

------------------

August 29th, 2000, 07:55 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jhj:
John -
I'm not sure that I knew or focused on the fact that you are on the Certification Committee. Since it's been over a month that we can get no substantive response from NLA staff on certification submissions, and Greg Casteel offered us a refund, can you arrange the refund? Obviously, NLA staff does not communicate so it's impossible to do it through them. And for those participants in this forum, don't even think about sending money to NLA for certification until you contact me by private e-mail. If John can't get our refund, we're ready to file suit against the company that's behind the NLA fig-leaf to get our refund.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi Jim
I just volunteered to be on the comittee last week. But I will bring your concerns to the Certification company.
As for others on this forum, feel free to contact me by priviate e-mail or call me at 1-800-517-9555 and I will give you the results on how this program has helped our company during the past three years.
John

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

John-

I never got a response from you about getting me the papers we discussed for the certification company. Can I assume that you are arranging for them to be sent to me??

August 29th, 2000, 08:05 AM

John,

I would prefer that you tell us the benefits you have received from the Certification Program instead of via "private email" -- that is the purpose of this Forum -- to air-out opinions, and experiences, negative or positive.

The benefits you cite from your completion & recognition in the Certification program is valuable information others would want to know.

Thanks
=)
Michael

August 29th, 2000, 12:46 PM

John - saw your reply that you volunteered to be on the NLA committee to review/discuss the certification program. As an NLA Director, can you please make sure that the committee is comprised of a cross section of the industry and that it is not loaded with only the big companies, networks and trade members. The committee should represent a cross section of the industry both by geography and by fleet size.
It should have participants from major limousine markets, New York, Florida, California, etc... Small, medium and large companies should be equally represented. Don't let the committee be made up of just large self-serving companies and their associates. Don't let all the little guys down.

August 29th, 2000, 12:54 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by XENEFOX Media Corporation:
John,

I would prefer that you tell us the benefits you have received from the Certification Program instead of via "private email" -- that is the purpose of this Forum -- to air-out opinions, and experiences, negative or positive.

The benefits you cite from your completion & recognition in the Certification program is valuable information others would want to know.

Thanks
=)
Michael<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
*****************
I would be happy too. However I would like to ask you a question? Why are you asking me to go public with the benefits,but yetu you allow the forum leader Jim to instruct viewers to e-mail him on a private basis to run down the program.Seems to be a one way street.

Later this evening I will relate my companies positive experience with this program, but Iam afraid it won't matter to the chosen few, they will just take pot shots at me because I am a board member. But as Red Butler said "Frankly, my Dear, I don't give a damm."
John

------------------

August 29th, 2000, 02:40 PM

First, I don't know what you are talking about with reference to JHJ; I haven't summoned him to email me privately anywhere in this forum -- search for it yourself-- second, if you don't want to give the public the benefit of knowing the "positive" benefits of the CTCP, then don't. Its your choice -- if you want the public opinion in this thread to be entirely negative, its your choice.

I see it as an opportunity to hear some positives about the program -- however, if no one wants to divulge any such positives, I guess my objective of hearing some positives from people who have been there won't happen.

I spoke in favor of the CTCP in February at the LCT Show -- I would like to know if the benefits that I speculated would occur, have occured.

Yet, if no one wants to come forth with such comments in this public forum, and induce some positives, I guess it will continue to be overrun by JRJ and the bad press he is feeding it.

Here's your chance to dispell the negativity yet you want to keep the benefits private?

I want to hear some positives. How is that a "one-way" street?

Michael

August 29th, 2000, 02:49 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Absolute Elegance Limo:
John - saw your reply that you volunteered to be on the NLA committee to review/discuss the certification program. As an NLA Director, can you please make sure that the committee is comprised of a cross section of the industry and that it is not loaded with only the big companies, networks and trade members. The committee should represent a cross section of the industry both by geography and by fleet size.
It should have participants from major limousine markets, New York, Florida, California, etc... Small, medium and large companies should be equally represented. Don't let the committee be made up of just large self-serving companies and their associates. Don't let all the little guys down. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
************
Thanks for the note. Just for the record, I am a small company. Been in business for seven years. Our staff consists of 12 employees and a fleet of five vehicles.
I started with one limo at home. I will work on making sure your request is met.
John

------------------

August 29th, 2000, 02:59 PM

Hey Michael you are a business man, so you want to hear a postive, it was done to make somebody MONEY. Nothing wrong with that, everyone should make a buck, but they should have the choice who they have to share it with. The corporate world has been existing without it, it was created published and attention brought to it, just keep creating monsters..
Safety is one thing, but then why fight against TEA 21.
I am waiting to see who gets picked for the committee to fix the program.
Michael why don't you ask to be on the committee? (Just joking)

August 29th, 2000, 03:17 PM

Ragu,

Yes, the CTCP may have been created to make money which is acceptable if they solve a bonafide "need" with efficiency.

Every business today is started to make a profit by solving a need. The CTCP is filling a need. Now, the question to efficiencies, cost, and the other parameters may be debatable. However, I think everyone can agree that there is a need for some kind of industry standards, or certification.

The issues are: How? How much? Who? and Why? That's why life is so interesting!

Conversely, I am not eligible for the NLA Board as I have not been an NLA member for the mandatory 2 years. I am also not sure if *supplier* members are eligible.

Michael

PS: And as if no one knew before, Limos.com favors the little guy as 90% of our membership are small to mid-size operators.

August 29th, 2000, 03:25 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by XENEFOX Media Corporation:
First, I don't know what you are talking about with reference to JHJ; I haven't summoned him to email me privately anywhere in this forum -- search for it yourself-- second, if you don't want to give the public the benefit of knowing the "positive" benefits of the CTCP, then don't. Its your choice -- if you want the public opinion in this thread to be entirely negative, its your choice.

I see it as an opportunity to hear some positives about the program -- however, if no one wants to divulge any such positives, I guess my objective of hearing some positives from people who have been there won't happen.

I spoke in favor of the CTCP in February at the LCT Show -- I would like to know if the benefits that I speculated would occur, have occured.

Yet, if no one wants to come forth with such comments in this public forum, and induce some positives, I guess it will continue to be overrun by JRJ and the bad press he is feeding it.

Here's your chance to dispell the negativity yet you want to keep the benefits private?

I want to hear some positives. How is that a "one-way" street?

Michael<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
*****************
I give much of the credit to the success of Five Star to our employees. What a great staff. The certification program has only enhanced the the ability of the staff to strive for better service. The first benefit has been
the safety factor. The training programs,videos and exams have helped our drivers become safer drivers.
The second benefit is the pride factor. Our drivers take pride in wearing their pins. They feel the accomplishiment and the fact their company backs a good training progam.
The third factor has been the customer. We have always strived to educate the client on what to expect from a professional transportation company. When we discuss the safety certification program, they are impressed to learn what goes into just renting a limousine or sedan. Many have expressed confidence in knowing that their driver has been required to take drug testing, background checks and driving and written exams. We also explain why we don't offer the non certified limos. Why would we want to place our clients in vehicles that don't meet the safety standards of Lincoln or Cadallac.Many of our clients see the difference between us and the competition.
I could go longer, but its dinner time and my wife is yelling at me to get to the table.
John

------------------

[This message has been edited by fivestaroregon (edited 08-29-2000).]

August 29th, 2000, 04:02 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by XENEFOX Media Corporation:
John,

I would prefer that you tell us the benefits you have received from the Certification Program instead of via "private email" -- that is the purpose of this Forum -- to air-out opinions, and experiences, negative or positive.

The benefits you cite from your completion & recognition in the Certification program is valuable information others would want to know.

Thanks
=)
Michael<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
*****************
I would be happy too. However I would like to ask you a question? Why are you asking me to go public with the benefits,but yetu you allow the forum leader Jim to instruct viewers to e-mail him on a private basis to run down the program.Seems to be a one way street.

Later this evening I will relate my companies positive experience with this program, but Iam afraid it won't matter to the chosen few, they will just take pot shots at me because I am a board member. But as Red Butler said "Frankly, my Dear, I don't give a damm."
John
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

John -
You don't seem to "get it." The directors are being run down because they bring it on themselves. Look back through this thread and of all the issues I've raised and questions I've asked, tell me whether any director has addressed ANY of the issues or ANY of the questions, including you. You've stonewalled anything I asked, including the most recent question as to whether you're going to have the papers I asked for sent to me while at the same time responding to Michael's post and complaining. After six weeks, your committee can't even get the NLA staff to return an e-mail or make a call - how is that for being ineffective or disinterested, your pick. Finally, when Casteel offered us a refund when i was obvious that NLA was never going to be able to administer the CTCP, and I asked you to make sure it happened, you didn't respind to that either. John, it's not hard to see what the exchange or e-mails (and telephone calls, by the Luddites of the board) among board memebers has been for the last two weeks - ignore JHJ and this will all go away, or there aren't enough people in the forums to really do any harm. WRONG - on both counts. It's not going to go away until there is change, particularly in the attitude of the directors and their stonewalling valid criticism. In my years of heavy antitrust and securities fraud litigation across the U.S., I've taken on the biggest and the richest and it takes staying power. If not already, I am going to be the worst nightmare of incompetent, stonewalling and self-aggrandizing board members - remember that you read it here first. In the end, I'm also going to get rid of Host - watch it happen before your eyes. And in a year or two, as the CTCP dies in the hands of the bungling NLA staff, I'm going to have a new program for operators in place - one that is internationall recognized. We are going to be thr first limousine company (to my knowledge) in the world with an ISO 9000-series certification, not just for drivers, but for the operation of the whole company. The current CTCP program is an amateur effort when compared to ISO certification. All of the corporate customers know what ISO 9000 is, and none know what the CTCP is - and I'll bet NOT ONE NLA director knows what ISO 9000 is. After we get this certification program off the ground and get a U.S. registrar experienced in limousine transportation, this program will easily be expanded to other companies and NLA will look as foolish as it is. To help you and the directors lurking out there discover what "babes in the woods" you really are - take a look at these sites and learn something. http://www.iso9000solutions.com/ http://www.asq.org/standcert/iso.html http://www.hq.nasa.gov/hqiso9000/iso.htm http://www.iso.ch/index.html
The, John, after you look at these pages, go to any search engine and puit in "iso 9000" and see the thousands of sites that are cataloged, and only then will you understand how pathetic and puny the NLA CTCP program really is and, more importantly, how easily a quality program could have been put in place as part of the ISO 9000 standards but wasn't, and isn't, because the puny NLA program is serving personal interests. This is what WE are going to do for the limousine industry, John - what are you going to do other han continue to exchange e-mail and phone calls with other directors to make sure everyone circles the wagons to deflect the criticisms in this forum.
Michael - this is also a challenge to you to use limos.com to acquaint the limousine industry with ISO 9000 standards and programs with some hyperlinks to selected sites. Between the two of us, we can end up with a REAL quality standards program that is independent of any person or group and will be a real benefit to the industry. By the way, if you haven't already noticed, there are trucking companies on the road in the U.S. (many more in Europe) with "ISO 9000 certified" on their trailers. Start watching for them - they are growing in numbers. ISO 9000 is already into the transportation industry here, and we're going to bring it to limousines. And, in the event some wisacre director breaks ranks and decides to quit stonewalling and suggest that an ISO 9000 program is too expensive for smaller companies, the answer is that it may be NOW because there are no experienced registrars and no prototype program. In a bit, however, that will no longer be true, and eventually multiple registrars will be competing to certify U.S. limousine companies and quality program prototypes will be easily obtainable to be customized for each company. Moreover, for very small companies, the ISO has special programs and manuals for small busineses (go to te ISO web site above for more information), and there are other quality programs available that are internationally-recognized subsets of ISO certification. For our part, John, our Yellow Page ads, our literature and our web site will eventually say "ISO-9000 certified." What will yours say - CTCP, which no one even know about in this country. Get with it John, I'm throwing down the gauntlet and the directors can circle the wagons and look like fools eventually (if they don't already), or NLA can come out of its iconoclastic little shell and do something significant for the first time in its history. Refusal to communiucate and ending up in litigation with us isn't going to get NLA anywhere in the end. Send back our money and, as Ted Turner says, "Lead, Follow or Get the Hell Out of the Way." What's your choice, John - I think I know - circle the wagons and hope JHJ goes away! Not a prayer!!!!

August 29th, 2000, 04:37 PM

The certification program has only enhanced the the ability of the staff to strive for better service. The first benefit has been
the safety factor. The training programs,videos and exams have helped our drivers become safer drivers.
The second benefit is the pride factor. Our drivers take pride in wearing their pins.

GEEZ, i haven't heard such nonsense in years. John how can you sit there and say that your drivers are all goo-goo ga-ga over wearing lapel pins! Where I'm from drivers-chauffeurs <whatever> are as reliable as the NLA answering e-mails!!! I have spent hundreds and hundreds on "chauffeur driving programs", Drug testing, Driver ettiquette, defensive driving, and a host of other chauffuer improvements, I even bought LCT videos for crying out loud, the result is always the same. After a few months they leave(usually to competitors) or better yet the decide to persue other interests and i'm left flipping the bill. And in all my years in this back-stabbing business the one thing i have learned is that what the clients want is a quick, cheap, clean car to take them where they have to go, they could care less what pins or certifications the driver has. Has anyone ever had a client ask the chauffeur while they were enroute to see his or her certifications? I THINK NOT!!!!In my opinion this whole certification thing is going to make someone or some people A LOT of MONEY! What we should be doing is concentrating on doing what we do best, transporting clients in efficiency and luxury. I totally agree safety should be our first concern and it always is, but lets not get to a point where certification becomes a mandatory issue. My boss years ago when i first started out as a full-time chauffuer had a term he would constantly use K.I.S.S.= KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID. Words to think about.

August 29th, 2000, 04:52 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by limoguy:
The certification program has only enhanced the the ability of the staff to strive for better service. The first benefit has been
the safety factor. The training programs,videos and exams have helped our drivers become safer drivers.
The second benefit is the pride factor. Our drivers take pride in wearing their pins.

GEEZ, i haven't heard such nonsense in years. John how can you sit there and say that your drivers are all goo-goo ga-ga over wearing lapel pins! Where I'm from drivers-chauffeurs <whatever> are as reliable as the NLA answering e-mails!!! I have spent hundreds and hundreds on "chauffeur driving programs", Drug testing, Driver ettiquette, defensive driving, and a host of other chauffuer improvements, I even bought LCT videos for crying out loud, the result is always the same. After a few months they leave(usually to competitors) or better yet the decide to persue other interests and i'm left flipping the bill. And in all my years in this back-stabbing business the one thing i have learned is that what the clients want is a quick, cheap, clean car to take them where they have to go, they could care less what pins or certifications the driver has. Has anyone ever had a client ask the chauffeur while they were enroute to see his or her certifications? I THINK NOT!!!!In my opinion this whole certification thing is going to make someone or some people A LOT of MONEY! What we should be doing is concentrating on doing what we do best, transporting clients in efficiency and luxury. I totally agree safety should be our first concern and it always is, but lets not get to a point where certification becomes a mandatory issue. My boss years ago when i first started out as a full-time chauffuer had a term he would constantly use K.I.S.S.= KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID. Words to think about.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You make good points, and we all realize that the present implementation of the CTCP has an agenda - to make money and to be used for the advantage of some to the disadvantage of others. The fact of the matter is, however, that corporate use of limousines (mostly sedans) is increasing dramatically faster than any other segment of the business, and as this use increases and after a few nasty accidents or worse, these customers are going to be looking for a way to evaluate the companies that are hauling their multi-million dollar executives around, and they won't find any so, heaven forbid, they'll invent their own requirements. It is imperative that, at least insofar as companies are serving the corporate market, that some uniform and recognized standards be developed. If you're business is largely weddings, proms and local folks going to the airport or running about town, then you don't need any such programs because the customer doesn't demand it and is not knowledgable. But if you are in the fast-growing segments of the business, we need uniform standards. See my last post on what we're going to do - go to the ISO 9000 standards, and lead the rest of the industry there also. I might also add, that with all the years of ISO programs, there are no politics in these programs of the certifications, and the registrars are independent and objective. What our industry needs to do is work with ISO to define the shape or footprint of the application of ISO standards to chauffeured transportation. If the industry doesn't do it, folks like us will take the lead and do it anyhow.

August 29th, 2000, 04:55 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by limoguy:
The certification program has only enhanced the the ability of the staff to strive for better service. The first benefit has been
the safety factor. The training programs,videos and exams have helped our drivers become safer drivers.
The second benefit is the pride factor. Our drivers take pride in wearing their pins.

GEEZ, i haven't heard such nonsense in years. John how can you sit there and say that your drivers are all goo-goo ga-ga over wearing lapel pins! Where I'm from drivers-chauffeurs <whatever> are as reliable as the NLA answering e-mails!!! I have spent hundreds and hundreds on "chauffeur driving programs", Drug testing, Driver ettiquette, defensive driving, and a host of other chauffuer improvements, I even bought LCT videos for crying out loud, the result is always the same. After a few months they leave(usually to competitors) or better yet the decide to persue other interests and i'm left flipping the bill. And in all my years in this back-stabbing business the one thing i have learned is that what the clients want is a quick, cheap, clean car to take them where they have to go, they could care less what pins or certifications the driver has. Has anyone ever had a client ask the chauffeur while they were enroute to see his or her certifications? I THINK NOT!!!!In my opinion this whole certification thing is going to make someone or some people A LOT of MONEY! What we should be doing is concentrating on doing what we do best, transporting clients in efficiency and luxury. I totally agree safety should be our first concern and it always is, but lets not get to a point where certification becomes a mandatory issue. My boss years ago when i first started out as a full-time chauffuer had a term he would constantly use K.I.S.S.= KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID. Words to think about.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Our turnover is next to nil. Sounds like you need new management or do a better job in screening your potential employees. Checkout the LCT issue in March 2000 on ways of attracting good employess. Our company now offers a 401k plan, medical,Dental and life insurance programs.We even pay 75% of the medical and dental plans for the individual employee. We are not a large operator, we only have twelve staff members and a fleet of six vehicles. We are using a company in Denver called HRC. They are able to provide these benifits to our company at a good price. They even do our payroll and tax reporting. I tried to offer a forum on benefits but got no responses. You seem to have a rather negative atitude concerning staff. Have you consider getting into another line of work? Take a good look in the mirror.
John

------------------

August 29th, 2000, 04:59 PM

August 29th, 2000, 05:08 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jhj:
John -
You don't seem to "get it." The directors are being run down because they bring it on themselves. Look back through this thread and of all the issues I've raised and questions I've asked, tell me whether any director has addressed ANY of the issues or ANY of the questions, including you. You've stonewalled anything I asked, including the most recent question as to whether you're going to have the papers I asked for sent to me while at the same time responding to Michael's post and complaining. After six weeks, your committee can't even get the NLA staff to return an e-mail or make a call - how is that for being ineffective or disinterested, your pick. Finally, when Casteel offered us a refund when i was obvious that NLA was never going to be able to administer the CTCP, and I asked you to make sure it happened, you didn't respind to that either. John, it's not hard to see what the exchange or e-mails (and telephone calls, by the Luddites of the board) among board memebers has been for the last two weeks - ignore JHJ and this will all go away, or there aren't enough people in the forums to really do any harm. WRONG - on both counts. It's not going to go away until there is change, particularly in the attitude of the directors and their stonewalling valid criticism. In my years of heavy antitrust and securities fraud litigation across the U.S., I've taken on the biggest and the richest and it takes staying power. If not already, I am going to be the worst nightmare of incompetent, stonewalling and self-aggrandizing board members - remember that you read it here first. In the end, I'm also going to get rid of Host - watch it happen before your eyes. And in a year or two, as the CTCP dies in the hands of the bungling NLA staff, I'm going to have a new program for operators in place - one that is internationall recognized. We are going to be thr first limousine company (to my knowledge) in the world with an ISO 9000-series certification, not just for drivers, but for the operation of the whole company. The current CTCP program is an amateur effort when compared to ISO certification. All of the corporate customers know what ISO 9000 is, and none know what the CTCP is - and I'll bet NOT ONE NLA director knows what ISO 9000 is. After we get this certification program off the ground and get a U.S. registrar experienced in limousine transportation, this program will easily be expanded to other companies and NLA will look as foolish as it is. To help you and the directors lurking out there discover what "babes in the woods" you really are - take a look at these sites and learn something. http://www.iso9000solutions.com/ http://www.asq.org/standcert/iso.html http://www.hq.nasa.gov/hqiso9000/iso.htm http://www.iso.ch/index.html
The, John, after you look at these pages, go to any search engine and puit in "iso 9000" and see the thousands of sites that are cataloged, and only then will you understand how pathetic and puny the NLA CTCP program really is and, more importantly, how easily a quality program could have been put in place as part of the ISO 9000 standards but wasn't, and isn't, because the puny NLA program is serving personal interests. This is what WE are going to do for the limousine industry, John - what are you going to do other han continue to exchange e-mail and phone calls with other directors to make sure everyone circles the wagons to deflect the criticisms in this forum.
Michael - this is also a challenge to you to use limos.com to acquaint the limousine industry with ISO 9000 standards and programs with some hyperlinks to selected sites. Between the two of us, we can end up with a REAL quality standards program that is independent of any person or group and will be a real benefit to the industry. By the way, if you haven't already noticed, there are trucking companies on the road in the U.S. (many more in Europe) with "ISO 9000 certified" on their trailers. Start watching for them - they are growing in numbers. ISO 9000 is already into the transportation industry here, and we're going to bring it to limousines. And, in the event some wisacre director breaks ranks and decides to quit stonewalling and suggest that an ISO 9000 program is too expensive for smaller companies, the answer is that it may be NOW because there are no experienced registrars and no prototype program. In a bit, however, that will no longer be true, and eventually multiple registrars will be competing to certify U.S. limousine companies and quality program prototypes will be easily obtainable to be customized for each company. Moreover, for very small companies, the ISO has special programs and manuals for small busineses (go to te ISO web site above for more information), and there are other quality programs available that are internationally-recognized subsets of ISO certification. For our part, John, our Yellow Page ads, our literature and our web site will eventually say "ISO-9000 certified." What will yours say - CTCP, which no one even know about in this country. Get with it John, I'm throwing down the gauntlet and the directors can circle the wagons and look like fools eventually (if they don't already), or NLA can come out of its iconoclastic little shell and do something significant for the first time in its history. Refusal to communiucate and ending up in litigation with us isn't going to get NLA anywhere in the end. Send back our money and, as Ted Turner says, "Lead, Follow or Get the Hell Out of the Way." What's your choice, John - I think I know - circle the wagons and hope JHJ goes away! Not a prayer!!!!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At last the mask is lifted! or should I say your fig leaf. What's your percentage on pushing this program. ALso since you dominate this forum, my last count places you about 48% of the responses. I have counted the other responses to this forum. It seems to have a following of about six regular individuals. I need to get back to answering the letters and e-mails I get from NLA members. I will no longer waste my time on this forum. You can check me out on the NEW AND IMPROVED NLA WEB PAGE coming soon to a computer near you.
Regards
JOHN

------------------

August 29th, 2000, 05:09 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jhj:
By the way, it's "Rhett" Butler. I think "Red" Butler worked for Khruschev in the Kremlin in the 60s.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I stand corrected. But at least I didn't take my shoe off and say "We will bury You"

August 29th, 2000, 05:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
But as Red Butler said "Frankly, my Dear, I don't give a damm."
John
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

C'mon, John! Who are you kidding? You give a big damn! The circled wagons by the directors isn't all that it seems. Some are talking - you just don't know who. You guys are spending great gobs of time on the phone talking to each other about what to do about the hammering that you're getting here. Bob Scott won't return my e-mail or call because he's too busy sticking his finger in the dyke and trying to figure out how to damage control. There is nothing that can happen in this industry that isn't public in minutes. Some of your directors know the criticism is valid - they're talking without some others knowing it. All kinds of phone calls are going on off-forum. Your little coffee-klatch is in disarray. You're all running around like roaches when the lights get turned on. The smart ones that want to survive are playing both sides. The internet is power, and it grows and grows geometrically each year. The internet is a trumpet - and it focuses light where there has only been darkness. Amazing what one guy can do with the net! Remember Matt Drudge - look what THAT one guy did. All the stonewalling only built a wall that collapsed. I'll be in Lexington when Bob Scott cleans out his desk and as the movers load the van to move NLA back to Washington, D.C. where it belongs. I'm taking bets - anyone want odds? Michael, don't ever let the posts in this forum disappear because when we all look back we'll see that it was all said here and it all happened.

August 29th, 2000, 05:12 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
I stand corrected. But at least I didn't take my shoe off and say "We will bury You" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't bang shoes, but the phraseology sounds like something that I've intimated. See my last post.

August 29th, 2000, 05:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
At last the mask is lifted! or should I say your fig leaf. What's your percentage on pushing this program. ALso since you dominate this forum, my last count places you about 48% of the responses. I have counted the other responses to this forum. It seems to have a following of about six regular individuals. I need to get back to answering the letters and e-mails I get from NLA members. I will no longer waste my time on this forum. You can check me out on the NEW AND IMPROVED NLA WEB PAGE coming soon to a computer near you.
Regards
JOHN
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Percentage is 100% for our company - we'll see what happens after that. And by the way, we finally got you to say what the directors have been saying in phone calls - there's no support for what JHJ is saying! WRONG, John. Just like the directors and Bob Scott are lurking in these forums, many, many others are, too. The sad fact of life is very few people have the b**ls to speak out. They just read, and then they telephone me with support. That's OK, John, because the measure of what's going on here isn't measured by the number of messages, and you and the other directors know it. The American Revolution, in fact, NO revolution, ever starts with everyone in the streets yelling. There is a ground-swell, and the supporters don't come out until they see the comfort of numbers. Things are happening behind the scenes - even with your cadre of directors. These forums have hit a nerve like a root canal without novacaine. I can urge others to speak out, but I understand that they see no advantage to speaking at this time - it's all downside for them, but no matter as long as I'm making noise like a raccoon in a trash can. A large number of NLA members, and others, will act when it is in their interest to climb on board. Wait and watch, John - wait and watch.

August 30th, 2000, 02:59 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
Our turnover is next to nil. Sounds like you need new management or do a better job in screening your potential employees. Checkout the LCT issue in March 2000 on ways of attracting good employess. Our company now offers a 401k plan, medical,Dental and life insurance programs.We even pay 75% of the medical and dental plans for the individual employee. We are not a large operator, we only have twelve staff members and a fleet of six vehicles. We are using a company in Denver called HRC. They are able to provide these benifits to our company at a good price. They even do our payroll and tax reporting. I tried to offer a forum on benefits but got no responses. You seem to have a rather negative atitude concerning staff. Have you consider getting into another line of work? Take a good look in the mirror.
John

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

John,
I have been an owner for nearly fifteen years and think by now i should be a little knowledgeable of my profession. I too offer benefits to my employees and i pay 100% of their medical and dental programs, they also get one week paid vacation after six months of service and two weeks after 24 months of service. Most of them, upon review after 12 months recieve an average 5-7% raise, all are paid hourly + commission. We carry brand new cars in our fleet which are meticulously maintained in our facility, all the chauffeur has to do is sit and drive.
I checked out digest's Ind. guide for some quick numbers, i see that in your home state there are ONLY 137 operators HMMM. Guess, what where i'm from we have the largest concentration of operators in the country in my home state alone there are 1,583 limousine companies, that's alot of competitors. All of them offering the same product. So i can see in an area of very few operators, you guys must seem like kings and can afford to give your employees all these "extra benefits". I wonder if you perhaps operated in a "real" limo market would you would be so successful? As for your inquiry of me finding another profession, I THINK NOT!!! I have worked to hard to get to where i am,and have no intentions of leaving, deep down i love what i do, what i can't stand is that our industry is constantly coming up with costly "new" ideas that will eventully cost us all money,labeling it a "safety" cause and think we're all going to jump on the band-wagon. We already live in a heavily regulated industry, between municipalites, insurace and state regulations i think our plate is FULL!!!!!

August 30th, 2000, 11:57 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Limoguy:
John,
I have been an owner for nearly fifteen years and think by now i should be a little knowledgeable of my profession. I too offer benefits to my employees and i pay 100% of their medical and dental programs, they also get one week paid vacation after six months of service and two weeks after 24 months of service. Most of them, upon review after 12 months recieve an average 5-7% raise, all are paid hourly + commission. We carry brand new cars in our fleet which are meticulously maintained in our facility, all the chauffeur has to do is sit and drive.
I checked out digest's Ind. guide for some quick numbers, i see that in your home state there are ONLY 137 operators HMMM. Guess, what where i'm from we have the largest concentration of operators in the country in my home state alone there are 1,583 limousine companies, that's alot of competitors. All of them offering the same product. So i can see in an area of very few operators, you guys must seem like kings and can afford to give your employees all these "extra benefits". I wonder if you perhaps operated in a "real" limo market would you would be so successful? As for your inquiry of me finding another profession, I THINK NOT!!! I have worked to hard to get to where i am,and have no intentions of leaving, deep down i love what i do, what i can't stand is that our industry is constantly coming up with costly "new" ideas that will eventully cost us all money,labeling it a "safety" cause and think we're all going to jump on the band-wagon. We already live in a heavily regulated industry, between municipalites, insurace and state regulations i think our plate is FULL!!!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think John made it clear in his last post that he's not deigning to frequent these forums anymore because he intends to keep busy helping NLA members who call him and send e-mail to him. I don't think he'll welcome e-mail or a call from you, however. Don't you think it's marvelous that in a relatively short period of time some of these directors came on line and got smoked out in fairly short order. You make good points - a competitive market is REALLY tough, although it's tough everywhere in a full-employment economy. If you think keeping drivers is tough, try the construction business. And think about the turnover in the trucking business which, at a number of companies, is 70% per year and they're paying a lot more than limousine companies.

August 30th, 2000, 12:48 PM

I want to respond to the statements regarding the NLA and LCT magazine. Since April of 1997 I have written 85 feature articles and approximately 300-400 news stories and columns for LCT. I am a former operator with a Journalism degree. I write about the NLA and its members/directors when I feel they have done something newsworthy. Ty Bobit, the owner of LCT magazine and Sara McLean have never instructed me to write about the NLA or to be part of an NLA "team". In fact I have received criticism from certain NLA officers for not spending more coverage on them. If you dont like LCT, that is your privilege. And if you dont like what I write about, fine. But please take my word for it, there is no conspiracy or coalition to speak of. I write about what Tom Mazza is interested in and feels is important to the readers of our magazine. I have deep admiration for the industry and for all of the operators who lay it on the line every day. If you want to speak to me, my number is 215-914-1448 and if you forget, check the contents page of every issue.

August 30th, 2000, 01:35 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by tommazza:
I want to respond to the statements regarding the NLA and LCT magazine. Since April of 1997 I have written 85 feature articles and approximately 300-400 news stories and columns for LCT. I am a former operator with a Journalism degree. I write about the NLA and its members/directors when I feel they have done something newsworthy. Ty Bobit, the owner of LCT magazine and Sara McLean have never instructed me to write about the NLA or to be part of an NLA "team". In fact I have received criticism from certain NLA officers for not spending more coverage on them. If you dont like LCT, that is your privilege. And if you dont like what I write about, fine. But please take my word for it, there is no conspiracy or coalition to speak of. I write about what Tom Mazza is interested in and feels is important to the readers of our magazine. I have deep admiration for the industry and for all of the operators who lay it on the line every day. If you want to speak to me, my number is 215-914-1448 and if you forget, check the contents page of every issue.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think LCT is a fine publication, even if our experiences with their fulfillment company has been shaky - at best. One must admit, however, that there appears to be an editorially-close relationship between NLA and LCT. You won't find a critical word in LCT when it comes to NLA, they are very close. Certainly there is not an "investigative journalism" bone in LCTs body.

August 30th, 2000, 03:06 PM

Your comment was "there isn't an investigative bone in LCT's body" How about extensive coverage of the licensing situation in Las Vegas including the August story that provides the first "on the record interview" ever by TSA Commisioner Paul Christensen? How about my May article on limousine safety that included an "on the record" interview with NHTSA that gave original information on limousine safety? Do you want more. A great man once a critic knows the price of everything but the value of nothing. I am proud of the editorial content of LCT.

Tom Mazza

August 30th, 2000, 03:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by tommazza:
Your comment was "there isn't an investigative bone in LCT's body" How about extensive coverage of the licensing situation in Las Vegas including the August story that provides the first "on the record interview" ever by TSA Commisioner Paul Christensen? How about my May article on limousine safety that included an "on the record" interview with NHTSA that gave original information on limousine safety? Do you want more. A great man once a critic knows the price of everything but the value of nothing. I am proud of the editorial content of LCT.

Tom Mazza<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Geez, Tom. No one was criticizing the editorial content of LCT, or you. No one said that any publication HAD to have an investigative component. My comment was an observation, but I think laying it in the context of the close relationship with NLA made it seem like a criticism. Shucks, I get maybe 30 magazines a month and most of them don't have an investigative editorial component. I think you use the term differently than I do, since for sure you didn't write the articles you refer to by sitting on your duff. I was using the term in a much more agressive sense. Personally, I think your articles are very good and I read everything you have in LCT (in between perusing these forums http://limos.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif).

August 30th, 2000, 06:13 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Limoguy:
John,
I have been an owner for nearly fifteen years and think by now i should be a little knowledgeable of my profession. I too offer benefits to my employees and i pay 100% of their medical and dental programs, they also get one week paid vacation after six months of service and two weeks after 24 months of service. Most of them, upon review after 12 months recieve an average 5-7% raise, all are paid hourly + commission. We carry brand new cars in our fleet which are meticulously maintained in our facility, all the chauffeur has to do is sit and drive.
I checked out digest's Ind. guide for some quick numbers, i see that in your home state there are ONLY 137 operators HMMM. Guess, what where i'm from we have the largest concentration of operators in the country in my home state alone there are 1,583 limousine companies, that's alot of competitors. All of them offering the same product. So i can see in an area of very few operators, you guys must seem like kings and can afford to give your employees all these "extra benefits". I wonder if you perhaps operated in a "real" limo market would you would be so successful? As for your inquiry of me finding another profession, I THINK NOT!!! I have worked to hard to get to where i am,and have no intentions of leaving, deep down i love what i do, what i can't stand is that our industry is constantly coming up with costly "new" ideas that will eventully cost us all money,labeling it a "safety" cause and think we're all going to jump on the band-wagon. We already live in a heavily regulated industry, between municipalites, insurace and state regulations i think our plate is FULL!!!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
*****************
I have been asked by Michael and several NLA members not to step out. I have given some thought, and I think it would be best for me to stay in. After all, someone else needs to give the other side of the story, Sorta like crossfire on CNN. As for your research on the numbers in Oregon, it might seem low, but thats probably the companies who have registered their business. We don't have as much regulations like in your States, but we make up for it with the large number of low end operators who run their business outside the law. I still feel you need to take some personel classes. Oh Jim, did you receive the update from the NLA on HR1689 and the gas guzzler tax? I know many members have received their fax. If you didn't, please e-mail me, and I will send it to you. We were able to work with our friends at the ITLA on the language of the bill. I also had a disussion with Mr. Scott. If you would like a refund of your certification fee and your membership dues with the NLA, just e-mail your request or fax a letter to me.

Jim I know you have your own agenda, but I think we can at least have a dialog. This could be like the old cold war days "The famous Kitchen Debates" I know you would like to bury the NLA, but thats not going to happen. Lets visit on the forum when possible. I will try to visit at least once a day.

------------------

[This message has been edited by fivestaroregon (edited 08-30-2000).]

August 31st, 2000, 12:15 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
Jim I know you have your own agenda, but I think we can at least have a dialog. This could be like the old cold war days "The famous Kitchen Debates" I know you would like to bury the NLA, but thats not going to happen. Lets visit on the forum when possible. I will try to visit at least once a day.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

John, you are consistently wrong. I NOW have an agenda. My only agenda starting in August was to embarass someone on the NLA staff into returning my e-mail or calling me, which they are too incompetent to do or unwilling to do. We have escalated from there into an agenda that indeed involves radical changes to NLA. If you got the idea that I intend to destroy NLA from these forums, you must be getting posts I haven't seen. My agenda has been clearly stated - get rid of Host and the staff, including Scott, move NLA back to D.C. where it belongs, get a good association head, revise the by-laws dramatically, and design a form of internal government that will make NLA work, and come up with something to replace the dying and nearly dead CTCP. Is that clear, John? Read it over and over and over - and re-read the threads - it has all been clearly stated even if you and others can't seem to understand it, although I'm sure that there is a certain agenda in misstating what I have said. As to your last post, I have never asked for a refund of NLA dues - you don't get rid of your problem that easily, John. I am asking for a refund of the certification fees since there's no way to get NLA to ever respond or complete certification for our company. I will send/fax you a letter to that effect this weekend (I'm in depositions all day, yesterday, today and tomorrow). Everyone take note, that NLA is finally admitting that it cannot process certification for our company and is going to refund our money. Isn't that what a lot of this forum has been about for the last month. ISO 9000, here we come. I'll be happy to keep everyone up to date on how we're going about ISO 9000 certification and after we're done we'll be willing to help other companies accomplish the same thing.
As to participants in this forum, we're going to draft a new set of NLA by-laws with changes that we believe will make NLA a viable trade association. Anyone who would like input into that document, call, write or e-mail me. I'd like to have that document for distribution in Atlantic City in November, and then start solicting proxies for the annual meeting where we can implement the by-law changes. Then we go after control of the board, which will then result in the expulsion of Host Communciations and the incompetent staff, followed by the move to D.C. I'm using my D.C. connections to look for an association executive that can handle NLA. This isn't a one-man show, so feel free to jump on board. Your participation will remain confidential if you so desire.

August 31st, 2000, 12:21 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by XENEFOX Media Corporation:

LIMOS.com joined the NLA because we believed in the "Code Of Ethics" which it posts, ethics which we believe lack in the industry.

We recognize the NLA icon because of these "Code of Ethics", and the hopes that all of the NLA members honor those same ethics. I know we do. As for some of the NLA members, several of them are deadbeats, owe us money, lied, and don't pay their bills. However, with 2,000 some NLA members, such should be expected. However, the lack of email responsiveness is unacceptable.

As for the ITLA, that isn't a problem recognizing them as well. We can recognize that affiliate-- although I can't have it done at this very moment -- it is something that can be added in our next redevelopment.

Also, Limos.com is not "exclusively" recognizing the NLA -- we are soley interested in giving consumers as much information as possible to make educated choices, whether that be NLA, ITLA, CTCP, or ALA.

I can say, our choice to recognize the NLA has brought much $$$ to the NLA -- I can count on 5 different occasions, we've had Limos.com Members join the NLA soley for the recognition. These are instances which I know of.

Michael

[This message has been edited by XENEFOX Media Corporation (edited 08-27-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Deadbeats in this industry are not limited to a few NLA members who may not pay their bills. Unfortunately the problem is much bigger then that. In Chicago we have numerous business that refuse to do business with our industry. It doesn't matter if you are an NLA member or not, together we need to upgrade the industry reputation with banks, credit card processors, repair facilities, etc.! Too many vendors have heard "I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger I'll eat today." For some reason Tuesday never seems to come.

It is important that there is a Code of Ethics, that operators follow it and that the NLA stands by it and enforces it.

No matter what anyone in this forum has to say, I feel in my heart that I am doing whatever I can for this industry, both as the President of the ILA and as a Board Member the NLA and that my fellow board members in both associations are doing likewise. Furthermore no one is going to break that spirit!!!!!!

August 31st, 2000, 02:22 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jhj:
John, you are consistently wrong. I NOW have an agenda. My only agenda starting in August was to embarass someone on the NLA staff into returning my e-mail or calling me, which they are too incompetent to do or unwilling to do. We have escalated from there into an agenda that indeed involves radical changes to NLA. If you got the idea that I intend to destroy NLA from these forums, you must be getting posts I haven't seen. My agenda has been clearly stated - get rid of Host and the staff, including Scott, move NLA back to D.C. where it belongs, get a good association head, revise the by-laws dramatically, and design a form of internal government that will make NLA work, and come up with something to replace the dying and nearly dead CTCP. Is that clear, John? Read it over and over and over - and re-read the threads - it has all been clearly stated even if you and others can't seem to understand it, although I'm sure that there is a certain agenda in misstating what I have said. As to your last post, I have never asked for a refund of NLA dues - you don't get rid of your problem that easily, John. I am asking for a refund of the certification fees since there's no way to get NLA to ever respond or complete certification for our company. I will send/fax you a letter to that effect this weekend (I'm in depositions all day, yesterday, today and tomorrow). Everyone take note, that NLA is finally admitting that it cannot process certification for our company and is going to refund our money. Isn't that what a lot of this forum has been about for the last month. ISO 9000, here we come. I'll be happy to keep everyone up to date on how we're going about ISO 9000 certification and after we're done we'll be willing to help other companies accomplish the same thing.
As to participants in this forum, we're going to draft a new set of NLA by-laws with changes that we believe will make NLA a viable trade association. Anyone who would like input into that document, call, write or e-mail me. I'd like to have that document for distribution in Atlantic City in November, and then start solicting proxies for the annual meeting where we can implement the by-law changes. Then we go after control of the board, which will then result in the expulsion of Host Communciations and the incompetent staff, followed by the move to D.C. I'm using my D.C. connections to look for an association executive that can handle NLA. This isn't a one-man show, so feel free to jump on board. Your participation will remain confidential if you so desire.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No Jim, you are consistently wrong.Your letter was answered and your call was returned. You just didn,t like the answer. Just Like when I answer questions, you don't like my responses but at least we are talking. My purpose on the board is to work with members.If new by-laws are adopted, I will live by them, we live in a great country. I plan on serving my whole term, if at the end, the members think I did a good job, I will serve a second term if not, life does go on. We have a great Limo company.
I have taken a look at ISO 9000. I think the jury is still out, my first impressions it looks like "PC Lawyer" only $39.00 but if you act now get our complete package for only $179. Sounds like a info commerical on TV. Like, buy real estate with no money down.

Would like other watchers on this forum to contact me and let me know your thoughts of ISO 9000. Oh Jim, you didn't answer my last post. Do you have a financial interest in this system,"Are you or any one you represent, have a financial interest in this company?" Are you a distrubutor? Need to get to the office. I will check in later.
John

------------------

[This message has been edited by fivestaroregon (edited 08-31-2000).]

August 31st, 2000, 03:37 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by tommazza:
I want to respond to the statements regarding the NLA and LCT magazine. Since April of 1997 I have written 85 feature articles and approximately 300-400 news stories and columns for LCT. I am a former operator with a Journalism degree. I write about the NLA and its members/directors when I feel they have done something newsworthy. Ty Bobit, the owner of LCT magazine and Sara McLean have never instructed me to write about the NLA or to be part of an NLA "team". In fact I have received criticism from certain NLA officers for not spending more coverage on them. If you dont like LCT, that is your privilege. And if you dont like what I write about, fine. But please take my word for it, there is no conspiracy or coalition to speak of. I write about what Tom Mazza is interested in and feels is important to the readers of our magazine. I have deep admiration for the industry and for all of the operators who lay it on the line every day. If you want to speak to me, my number is 215-914-1448 and if you forget, check the contents page of every issue.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Tommy, Since 1986, I have been a writer and researcher for the industry. LCT is a great magazine, and you are one helluva writer. Of course the relationship is cozy, that is nothing to be ashamed about, LCT nurtured the NLA in it's early days, and your publisher sits on the NLA Board. Dean Schuler P.S. Keep up the super writing!!

August 31st, 2000, 03:41 AM

John (@ Ritz),

Yes I agree with you -- you can't weed out the deadbeat limo companies everywhere; it is impossible -- in general, my experience with NLA members has been very positive.

In fact, I would state that the odds of coming across a "deadbeat" company and having them a member of the NLA are greatly reduced, versus, a crap-shoot with a non-NLA member. I think membership shows an elevated interest in the industry. This has been my experience having dealt with 1,000's of companies over the past 3 years.

So yes, maybe that "Code of Ethics" does play a role with a lot of members. It does with us.

August 31st, 2000, 10:12 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jhj:
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No Jim, you are consistently wrong.Your letter was answered and your call was returned. You just didn,t like the answer. Just Like when I answer questions, you don't like my responses but at least we are talking. My purpose on the board is to work with members.If new by-laws are adopted, I will live by them, we live in a great country. I plan on serving my whole term, if at the end, the members think I did a good job, I will serve a second term if not, life does go on. We have a great Limo company.
I have taken a look at ISO 9000. I think the jury is still out, my first impressions it looks like "PC Lawyer" only $39.00 but if you act now get our complete package for only $179. Sounds like a info commerical on TV. Like, buy real estate with no money down.

Would like other watchers on this forum to contact me and let me know your thoughts of ISO 9000. Oh Jim, you didn't answer my last post. Do you have a financial interest in this system,"Are you or any one you represent, have a financial interest in this company?" Are you a distrubutor? Need to get to the office. I will check in later.
John
[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

John - Although our opinions are different, we should stick to the truth when it comes to factual matters. I never wrote a letter to NLA, so there was no letter to answer. I did write Greg Casteel AFTER he dumpled the CTCP and criticized him for doing so. He wrote back, and his magnanimous contribution to my question was to tell me to send the papers to NLA, which, for obvious reasons, I wasn't going to do without a contact person since the papers include original copies of test materials that cannot be replaced. All of my efforts to communicate with NLA, as I have pointed out at length, were to no avail - even to this day. Had there been a response in even early August we might not be where we are now, but that's water under the bridge.
As to the International Standards Organization, I don't know what to say. Your ignorance of that organization and the quality standards it sets worldwide in all industries is absolutely astounding - why not do some internet research before you embarass yourself like that. NO ONE has an economic interest in ISO, since it is a non-profit entity and, in fact, is quasi-governmental since it sets standards for various countries as industries. Your suggestion that this is some do-it-yourself project is also embarassing - I guess NASA's whole operation which is ISO 9000 based opted for something like PC Lawyer. I'm going to keep your post for the folks I know in various industries who deal with ISO and ISO standards for a real hoot!!! Remember, John, at least do elementary inquiries before you shove your foot in your mouth all the way up to the hip.

August 31st, 2000, 10:35 AM

James & John,

Keep your comments to the facts and pertinent opinions only; stay away from the insults and character attacks.

I don't want to start editing posts with comments such as "your ignorant" and "PC Lawyer"-- there is a better way of saying things to reach a point.

Be tactful - I don't want run a Marxist forum which will happen if the insults keep happening.

August 31st, 2000, 11:55 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jhj:
John - Although our opinions are different, we should stick to the truth when it comes to factual matters. I never wrote a letter to NLA, so there was no letter to answer. I did write Greg Casteel AFTER he dumpled the CTCP and criticized him for doing so. He wrote back, and his magnanimous contribution to my question was to tell me to send the papers to NLA, which, for obvious reasons, I wasn't going to do without a contact person since the papers include original copies of test materials that cannot be replaced. All of my efforts to communicate with NLA, as I have pointed out at length, were to no avail - even to this day. Had there been a response in even early August we might not be where we are now, but that's water under the bridge.
As to the International Standards Organization, I don't know what to say. Your ignorance of that organization and the quality standards it sets worldwide in all industries is absolutely astounding - why not do some internet research before you embarass yourself like that. NO ONE has an economic interest in ISO, since it is a non-profit entity and, in fact, is quasi-governmental since it sets standards for various countries as industries. Your suggestion that this is some do-it-yourself project is also embarassing - I guess NASA's whole operation which is ISO 9000 based opted for something like PC Lawyer. I'm going to keep your post for the folks I know in various industries who deal with ISO and ISO standards for a real hoot!!! Remember, John, at least do elementary inquiries before you shove your foot in your mouth all the way up to the hip.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Jim

I will spend my money and efforts on the CTCP program.I am still waiting for your fax or e-mail concerning your refund. Use me as your contact person. I am not concerned about you keeping my posts, I still stand behind the CTCP, as for your quotes, they also will make for a great hoot too.
John

------------------

August 31st, 2000, 12:59 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jhj:
John - Although our opinions are different, we should stick to the truth when it comes to factual matters. I never wrote a letter to NLA, so there was no letter to answer. I did write Greg Casteel AFTER he dumpled the CTCP and criticized him for doing so. He wrote back, and his magnanimous contribution to my question was to tell me to send the papers to NLA, which, for obvious reasons, I wasn't going to do without a contact person since the papers include original copies of test materials that cannot be replaced. All of my efforts to communicate with NLA, as I have pointed out at length, were to no avail - even to this day. Had there been a response in even early August we might not be where we are now, but that's water under the bridge.
As to the International Standards Organization, I don't know what to say. Your ignorance of that organization and the quality standards it sets worldwide in all industries is absolutely astounding - why not do some internet research before you embarass yourself like that. NO ONE has an economic interest in ISO, since it is a non-profit entity and, in fact, is quasi-governmental since it sets standards for various countries as industries. Your suggestion that this is some do-it-yourself project is also embarassing - I guess NASA's whole operation which is ISO 9000 based opted for something like PC Lawyer. I'm going to keep your post for the folks I know in various industries who deal with ISO and ISO standards for a real hoot!!! Remember, John, at least do elementary inquiries before you shove your foot in your mouth all the way up to the hip.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't wait for the fax. I'm in Court all day yesterday, today and tomorrow, and I'm scheduled for a meeting in Ohio on Saturday. It will be sometime on the weekend before I'm in my office when I can get a letter off to you. Besides, they've had our money since June, so no use worrying about for another few days. Thank you for attending to this matter.

August 31st, 2000, 01:03 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by XENEFOX Media Corporation:
James & John,

Keep your comments to the facts and pertinent opinions only; stay away from the insults and character attacks.

I don't want to start editing posts with comments such as "your ignorant" and "PC Lawyer"-- there is a better way of saying things to reach a point.

Be tactful - I don't want run a Marxist forum which will happen if the insults keep happening.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Michael -
I would call to your attention that there is a difference between calling someone ignorant (usually an insult even if true) and stating that they are ignorant of a fact (which would include the variation "ignorance") which is not an ad hominem. Let's not go overboard in reigning in the forum.

August 31st, 2000, 01:07 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jhj:
Michael -
I would call to your attention that there is a difference between calling someone ignorant (usually an insult even if true) and stating that they are ignorant of a fact (which would include the variation "ignorance") which is not an ad hominem. Let's not go overboard in reigning in the forum.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Michael -
Furthermore, unless I misunderstood John's connotation, he was referring to the software program PC Lawyer which is a sort-of do-it-yourself software package, and he was suggesting that ISO 9000 certification was, in his opinion, such a process. The comparison isn't insulting to anyone except John if you have any knowledge at all of the ISO and its quality and standards programs. Even if he was making some reference to me (if so, I apparently missed the point), I certainly don't insult that easily at all.

August 31st, 2000, 05:26 PM

Mike,
Couple of items:
1) LCT covers limos.com because you put together a cite that is newsworthy. I don't use press releases so I would ignore them just as LD has.

2) I have to laugh when I read about LCT's "agenda". I travel extensively researching and writing about the limousine industry. The majority of the editorial in the magazine comes from me. I get zero interference from Ty Bobit or Sara McLean.

3) My friend in Tampa and Staten Island are correct when they accuse LCT of not running 1 particular "negative" news item on certification. The reason LCT's coverage of the program has been fairly positive is that WE, the magazine, wanted certification to become a reality and we promised to support Greg Casteel before Pinnacle became a reality. In my opinion, the NLA did not treat Greg completely fairly in the beginning. (call me and I'll explain)

4) In my opinion, the job of NLA Director is a lousy one. One of my best friends is Bob Bellagamba and I can say for certain, he is a bright creative person that spends hundreds of hours working for the industry to the point he neglects his own business. For what? no money and really very little prestige. I'll be honest, I could NEVER do it, I work for $ period and I volunteer to help kids not a trade organization

5) Fair criticism that the NLA made mistakes and put together a lousy website.

By the way, why don't we toss aside the cloak of anomynity and step up like adults. I would love to talk to any of you who want to discuss LCT.

September 1st, 2000, 02:20 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dean Schuler:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jhj:
Michael -
Furthermore, unless I misunderstood John's connotation, he was referring to the software program PC Lawyer which is a sort-of do-it-yourself software package, and he was suggesting that ISO 9000 certification was, in his opinion, such a process. The comparison isn't insulting to anyone except John if you have any knowledge at all of the ISO and its quality and standards programs. Even if he was making some reference to me (if so, I apparently missed the point), I certainly don't insult that easily at all.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
JhJ, Please remember that NLA Directors think that they are on the U.S. Department of Commerce, and therefore are the voice of the industry. With 30,000 operators in the industry now, we don't have to take this stuff anymore!!!! A veteran who cares!!!!!!!!! Dean Schuler<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
********
Hey Dean,"Who do you think you are?" Kay asked you to explain your conduct on the board, well as Paul Harvey's radio show goes,
"Let's have the rest of the Story!"

Don't be throwing rocks from your glass limo.
John

------------------

September 1st, 2000, 03:47 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dean Schuler:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jhj:
Michael -
Furthermore, unless I misunderstood John's connotation, he was referring to the software program PC Lawyer which is a sort-of do-it-yourself software package, and he was suggesting that ISO 9000 certification was, in his opinion, such a process. The comparison isn't insulting to anyone except John if you have any knowledge at all of the ISO and its quality and standards programs. Even if he was making some reference to me (if so, I apparently missed the point), I certainly don't insult that easily at all.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
JhJ, Please remember that NLA Directors think that they are on the U.S. Department of Commerce, and therefore are the voice of the industry. With 30,000 operators in the industry now, we don't have to take this stuff anymore!!!! A veteran who cares!!!!!!!!! Dean Schuler<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
********
Hey Dean,"Who do you think you are?" Kay asked you to explain your conduct on the board, well as Paul Harvey's radio show goes,
"Let's have the rest of the Story!"

Don't be throwing rocks from your glass limo.
John

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The board is no longer relevant to me . Explain how endorsements are made by the board to the industry. A recap of the livery coach case would be most interesting, if you care to go there.

September 1st, 2000, 08:19 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by tommazza:

By the way, why don't we toss aside the cloak of anomynity and step up like adults. I would love to talk to any of you who want to discuss LCT.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tom -
I hope you're not referring to me - I am a registered user and my e-mail address and company affiliation are listed with every post. Beyond that, anyone can go to the NLA Directory and look up the company and find my name. Michael doesn't provide a place to put a name in the profile, so it isn't there. I have no objection if he adds such a data field. I, too, however agree that the hit-and-run "unregistered" users ought to identify themselves.

September 1st, 2000, 09:13 AM

For those who don't know, Tom Mazza is the Senior Editor of LCT Magazine -- I don't think he is trying to be anonymous -- he just didn't register in the forum.

September 1st, 2000, 09:50 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by XENEFOX Media Corporation:
For those who don't know, Tom Mazza is the Senior Editor of LCT Magazine -- I don't think he is trying to be anonymous -- he just didn't register in the forum. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Registration is insignificant when your login name is "tommazza." I hope nobody out there confuses this with "whazzup."

September 1st, 2000, 03:10 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by XENEFOX Media Corporation:
For those who don't know, Tom Mazza is the Senior Editor of LCT Magazine -- I don't think he is trying to be anonymous -- he just didn't register in the forum. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Tommy loves the industry- he is a stand up guy. Dean Schuler

September 2nd, 2000, 12:45 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dean Schuler:

Tommy loves the industry- he is a stand up guy. Dean Schuler<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe Tom will come to Chicago on Sept. 20 and cover the considerable difference of opinions that is going to take place as to the future of the CTCP (see posts in same subject, this forum). It would seem that given LCT's strong support of the CTCP (and avoiding criticism to help it get started), this is a real "news" event. Either way, let's hope that it will be neutrally covered, including the criticism, now that CTCP exists and doesn't need a "hands-off" approach to boost it.

September 2nd, 2000, 01:13 AM

Maybe Limo Digest will cover it! If so, then we might know if anyone from Limo Digest is following these forums. Or maybe they don't want to admit they do!

September 5th, 2000, 05:30 PM

Just a post to keep this thread active.

September 9th, 2000, 04:17 PM

T Mazza good dude, Mean Dean where you been?
All that rukas over this certification stuff, Carey taken accounts away because of it, well what goes around like a jet? I hear Jet Exec took a flight to another company, I quess it came down to service and price, they went with somebody thats not in the program I believe.

September 10th, 2000, 05:05 PM

I will be in Chicago on September 20. I am part of the steering commmittee and I will cover the meeting. I will also be speaking at the ILA meeting.

Tom Mazza

September 14th, 2000, 02:50 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dean Schuler:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jhj:
Michael -
Furthermore, unless I misunderstood John's connotation, he was referring to the software program PC Lawyer which is a sort-of do-it-yourself software package, and he was suggesting that ISO 9000 certification was, in his opinion, such a process. The comparison isn't insulting to anyone except John if you have any knowledge at all of the ISO and its quality and standards programs. Even if he was making some reference to me (if so, I apparently missed the point), I certainly don't insult that easily at all.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
JhJ, Please remember that NLA Directors think that they are on the U.S. Department of Commerce, and therefore are the voice of the industry. With 30,000 operators in the industry now, we don't have to take this stuff anymore!!!! A veteran who cares!!!!!!!!! Dean Schuler<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
********
Hey Dean,"Who do you think you are?" Kay asked you to explain your conduct on the board, well as Paul Harvey's radio show goes,
"Let's have the rest of the Story!"

Don't be throwing rocks from your glass limo.
John
Unfortunately, you live in a glass house on that one. Kay needs to explain her conduct on the board and how endorsements are made. The industry is waiting for an answer.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

October 29th, 2000, 06:23 AM

Come on guys! Is there no one that is a member of limos.com that has something positive to say about the NLA? Granted I have only been a member for 3 years and they did mess up my name, phone no. etc the first year, but persistance paid off and it was fixed. In my short 3 years I have two occasions to ask for assistance from the NLA and they responded quickly in both instances!!! the first one was several years ago when a local company refused to pay me for services we had successfully performed for them. I enlisted the aid of the NLA and Mr. Scott acted as liason between the two companies. It took about 6 weeks but not only did I receive the money due my company, but I also received a written apology!!! I felt extremely good about my association with them at that point in time.(Note, that at that time I only had 1 limo and 1 sedan).
About 6 weeks ago the livery industry in our state received new upcoming guidelines for certification in our state. These requirements were outrageous! I called the NLA and told them what I wanted to discuss, faxed them copies of all sent to me from our public service commission. They said I would be hearing back from them within 3 days. Two days later I received a call from Barry Lefkowitz (spelling?) in regard to the situation. He had read over the information and stated that he would be happy to come down to help us present our case to the proper state sources! He assured me that he was available to help-just give him a call and let him know when. He also called me back to tell me that he personally had called the PSC and discussed the issue with them. What is more interesting is that a week later, info came out that the PSC was going to table the new requirements, temporarily, pending further research.
I felt d.....good about this step!.

I am sure that you folks have had more experience with the NLA that I have, but as far as I am concerned they are doing what I certainly need them to do!

Thanks for the forum, it keeps me up to date on many of the limo issues and is extremely interesting and good reading!

Judy Jackson

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Judy Jackson