Is LCT'S 2008 "Fact Book" Factual?

[gunny]

Fact n: the quality of being actual

Once again LCT'S yearly Biblical "Fact Book" or as described by Sara McLean, the industry's "Crystal Ball" that will help take the guesswork out of planning for your coming business year.

The Numbers Game:
US Operators are reported by LCT to be at 9,654 which is sharply lower than the projected 13-14k that Limo Digest is predicting when their research is all said & done.

The average "owned" fleet size is "12"
The average number of gallons of fuel purchased per week is 551 gallons which, when divided by average fleet size equates to 46 gallons per unit average weekly.
The average number of reservations per week is 222 with the average number of trips per week being 190 or 27 per day.
There are 22 people working for the average operator & the average operator employs 13 full time chauffeurs & 10 part timers.

Now, I'll let these numbers simmer awhile before breaking out the ole calculator.

[D. Hartson]

Look, I had to respond to this. The LCT has been off it's numbers for years. Let's face it! The top 100 has been wrong for years. Even the operators on the list that the numbers are wrong know it. So do the local Operators in that area. These numbers are unverified and are wrong! I have been in the industry over 20 years now, and I know they are wrong! I am not writing this because I have a working relationship with the Digest, the facts are the numbers are wrong! It's all about advertising! Sick isn't it!

[Dean Schuler]

Go to Find ( Keyword search ), type in JHJ Top 75 and you will have your answer. This was settled a long time ago.

[gunny]

Originally posted by D. Hartson:
Look, I had to respond to this. The LCT has been off it's numbers for years. Let's face it! The top 100 has been wrong for years. Even the operators on the list that the numbers are wrong know it. So do the local Operators in that area. These numbers are unverified and are wrong! I have been in the industry over 20 years now, and I know they are wrong! I am not writing this because I have a working relationship with the Digest, the facts are the numbers are wrong! It's all about advertising! Sick isn't it!

Dean, Dave & Digest better watch out! If they dispute the facts of LCT, all of them may be accused of having too much time on their hands or view any challenge as nothing but pissing, moaning & groaning. In fact, the LCT crew probably would love it if you all just locked stepped with their figures as dead on-balls accurate. http://limos.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[D. Hartson]

Quote: Posted by Gunny:

Dean, Dave & Digest better watch out! If they dispute the facts of LCT, all of them may be accused of having too much time on their hands or view any challenge as nothing but pissing, moaning & groaning. In fact, the LCT crew probably would love it if you all just locked stepped with their figures as dead on-balls accurate.
_____________________________________________
As I do understand that figures change from day to day. People are getting into the business while other are getting out for one reason or another. But let’s look at the facts! Limousine Fleets don’t have a size of 80 cars to reduce to 36 after the top 100 is published. If 20% or more of this report is this far off, in which it is, the figures are not reviewed and how this is printed fact used? Printed material has value to be use in study’s for business loans, company advertising and promotion and to justify rates and more. If the information is wrong, what does this mean? Journalism today really is pathetic. Watching the news and how statements are twisted to benefit issues or people is wrong. The purpose of media is to report information as accurate as possible for people to make up their own minds of what is the truth. It is clear, information printed today isn’t what one would think!

[InTheLeftLane]

I think the LCT gang is doing their best to present good data and I do NOT think they're acting in some kind of conspiracy to mislead anyone. Geez you guys....

I've assembled and posted data from four credible sources on how big the industry is and the numbers vary widely.

See what you think; check the post here at InTheLeftLaneOnline.com (http://leftlane.ning.com/profiles/blog/show?id=2020421%3ABlogPost%3A2163)

[gunny]

Originally posted by InTheLeftLane:
I think the LCT gang is doing their best to present good data and I do NOT think they're acting in some kind of conspiracy to mislead anyone. Geez you guys....

I've assembled and posted data from four credible sources on how big the industry is and the numbers vary widely.

Well, you know what they say when someone has to "think" about something.

They don't know!

[D. Hartson]

quote:
Originally posted by InTheLeftLane:
I think the LCT gang is doing their best to present good data and I do NOT think they're acting in some kind of conspiracy to mislead anyone. Geez you guys....

I've assembled and posted data from four credible sources on how big the industry is and the numbers vary widely.
_____________________________________________

Steve, this has been an ongoing problem for years! We are not talking about numbers that are One or Two off from the real truth, we are talking about vast numbers that have been far from close for years! Companies who put in for "Operator of the Year" who get beat out by an operator that the numbers of fleet size is wrong and information included in wrong is not fair to Operators who with good honest information looses because of unverified facts! I don't know how many years you have been in the industry and how many conventions you have attended to witness this ongoing problem! Facts are Facts. The Truth will set you free! Always!

Information is always worth the time to be researched before printed! Credibility!

[InTheLeftLane]

Originally posted by gunny:
Well, you know what they say when someone has to "think" about something.

They don't know!

LOL - Not all of us have the God-given talent of knowing it all Amigo. Many times we need to think about stuff before we can know it. Some people call it 'Learning'.

I'm more than happy to learn what I can... everyday.

[gunny]

In all fairness to Steve, as he can see from the figures that he posted on ITLL, of 4 reference sources, the lowest numbers of operators is reported by LCT which for all practical purposes is synonymous with NLA.

Now with membership numbers that actually represents 10-15% of the Industry. Would it be in their best interests to keep the reported total operator numbers as low as possible this way when they stand behind the podium they can boast that they represent 20% of the limousine industry vice 10%?

[gunny]

Originally posted by InTheLeftLane:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gunny:
Well, you know what they say when someone has to "think" about something.

They don't know!

LOL - Not all of us have the God-given talent of knowing it all Amigo. Many times we need to think about stuff before we can know it. Some people call it 'Learning'.

I'm more than happy to learn what I can... everyday. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I actually quoted a graphic arts teacher I had in 9th grade. He told us we couldn't think in his classroom. We either know or don't know. If you have to think about something, that means you don't know. If you don't know, seek the answer so that you do know.

[InTheLeftLane]

Originally posted by D. Hartson:
quote:
<snip>
I don't know how many years you have been in the industry...
<snip>
Information is always worth the time to be researched before printed! Credibility!

I am a newbie and have never owned a car, I'm a marketing guy, learning about this industry all the time.

As to the LCT Report; if the data is horribly skewed, I get it. Sorry it is not useful to you - throw the issue away in the trash.

If they've been doing it for a long time, in the face of the industry, I'd have to wonder why people still patronize them. There must be SOMEthing right in what they're doing over there.

Lastly, how does an LCT Award impact revenue and a livelyhood in the industry? Does the award = some % increase in bookings? Does it come with a cash prize? I do not think so (oops, there I go thinking again, Gunny - dang...)

As far as I can remember, an award plaque like this looks good on a wall. The award and $2.50 get you a cup of coffee today at Starbucks.

Back to thinking...

[InTheLeftLane]

Originally posted by gunny:
If you don't know, seek the answer so that you do know.

You sound like Yoda - 'do or do not, there is no try'...

Ya' got me there - I used the work 'think' to express an opinion... many of us have opinions; they're like ears, most of us have at least two...

[Limo Scene]

All I can say is:

AMEN STEVE! If you don't like it, QUIT BUYING IT!

If you don't believe it, QUIT READING IT!

I don't read the National Enquirer because I don't believe it. It would be ridiculous to buy it and then argue the "facts" contained within the pages.

Year after year for more than a decade the debate has raged on and I am sure in 2018 it will be EXACTLY the same as it is today.

New operators will open the doors today, other operators will close the doors today. Those that had ten 120' stretches may sell 3 and only buy one TC so their fleet size changes.

Again, who cares????? I swear it equates to who has a bigger penis mentality. It isn't a worth while debate. If it they report 9,612 and someone else reports 10,413 WHAT difference does it make??????

[gunny]

Originally posted by InTheLeftLane:

Lastly, how does an LCT Award impact revenue and a livelyhood in the industry? Does the award = some % increase in bookings? Does it come with a cash prize? I do not think so (oops, there I go thinking again, Gunny - dang...)..

Marketing

Kiss Ass
Submit the "I am great" operator of the year application on yourself ala John Kerry
Kiss more ass
Win the award
Kiss more ass
Do a press release
Advertise award on website
Kiss more ass
Sell business
Kiss industry assholes goodbye http://limos.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[InTheLeftLane]

Originally posted by gunny:
<snip>
Sell business
Kiss industry assholes goodbye http://limos.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Sounds like a great retirement plan!

[Wade Randolph]

Originally posted by InTheLeftLane:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by D. Hartson:
quote:
<snip>
I don't know how many years you have been in the industry...
<snip>
Information is always worth the time to be researched before printed! Credibility!

I am a newbie and have never owned a car, I'm a marketing guy, learning about this industry all the time.

As to the LCT Report; if the data is horribly skewed, I get it. Sorry it is not useful to you - throw the issue away in the trash.

If they've been doing it for a long time, in the face of the industry, I'd have to wonder why people still patronize them. There must be SOMEthing right in what they're doing over there.

Lastly, how does an LCT Award impact revenue and a livelyhood in the industry? Does the award = some % increase in bookings? Does it come with a cash prize? I do not think so (oops, there I go thinking again, Gunny - dang...)

As far as I can remember, an award plaque like this looks good on a wall. The award and $2.50 get you a cup of coffee today at Starbucks.

Back to thinking... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Steve the LCT Operator of the Year award turns into "Voted The Best Limousine Company in The Nation" award after the LCT Show. Just check out all the past award winners to see how they whored the award out. Press releases, website banners, email blasts to clients all saying "Voted Best Limousine Company in the US 2008". Most of the companies are good companies but lets be honest who the hell really knows who the best company in the nation is.

[Dean Schuler]

Historical evidence speaks otherwise. Correct operator numbers are imperative for effective industry lobbying.IN GENERAL: Playing around with the numbers, not researching them properly and/or making them up is known as the School of Numbers syndrome. This afflicts many industries. Follow the business news for pertinent examples. Sloppy work carries a very bad smell with it.
Originally posted by InTheLeftLane:
I think the LCT gang is doing their best to present good data and I do NOT think they're acting in some kind of conspiracy to mislead anyone. Geez you guys....

I've assembled and posted data from four credible sources on how big the industry is and the numbers vary widely.

See what you think; check the post here at InTheLeftLaneOnline.com (http://leftlane.ning.com/profiles/blog/show?id=2020421%3ABlogPost%3A2163)

[gunny]

Originally posted by Dean Schuler:
Historical evidence speaks otherwise. Correct operator numbers are imperative for effective industry lobbying.IN GENERAL: Playing around with the numbers, not researching them properly and/or making them up is known as the School of Numbers syndrome. This afflicts many industries. Follow the business news for pertinent examples. Sloppy work carries a very bad smell with it. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by InTheLeftLane:
I think the LCT gang is doing their best to present good data and I do NOT think they're acting in some kind of conspiracy to mislead anyone. Geez you guys....

I've assembled and posted data from four credible sources on how big the industry is and the numbers vary widely.

See what you think; check the post here at InTheLeftLaneOnline.com (http://leftlane.ning.com/profiles/blog/show?id=2020421%3ABlogPost%3A2163) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only those who live life under the umbrella of Integrity could understand the festering implications of one lie leading to another until truth becomes nonrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

For the liars & those who align with them, truth will bite them in the ass sooner or later as long as there are those diligent enough to follow the issues & bring forth the "facts".

[InTheLeftLane]

Originally posted by Wade Randolph:
Most of the companies are good companies but lets be honest who the hell really knows who the best company in the nation is.

hmm... probably the point of my comments here, that and why it matters to anyone to point of raising blood pressure.

I do not know them like you guys do, but does anyone really believe that the people at LCT are trying to doctor the numbers in their study for some nefarious reason?

Just askin'...

[InTheLeftLane]

Originally posted by Dean Schuler:
Sloppy work carries a very bad smell with it.

Great point Dean... I am getting a sense that the data MIGHT be altered for political reasons, but I cannot imagine why they'd lower the # vs. fudge it upward.

[InTheLeftLane]

Originally posted by gunny:
<snip>
... truth will bite them in the ass sooner or later as long as there are those diligent enough to follow the issues & bring forth the "facts".

I agree with the comment. I wonder how long we have to wait and be diligent.

Off to think about it...

[Dean Schuler]

To make the number of NLA members look very good in relation to their total industry numbers. Think: CARTEL
Originally posted by InTheLeftLane:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dean Schuler:
Sloppy work carries a very bad smell with it.

Great point Dean... I am getting a sense that the data MIGHT be altered for political reasons, but I cannot imagine why they'd lower the # vs. fudge it upward. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[gunny]

Originally posted by InTheLeftLane:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gunny:
<snip>
... truth will bite them in the ass sooner or later as long as there are those diligent enough to follow the issues & bring forth the "facts".

I agree with the comment. I wonder how long we have to wait and be diligent.

Off to think about it... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correction to my statement:
"the truth has bitten them in the ass & will continue to bite them in the ass as long as there are those diligent enough to hold LCT & the NLA accountable for what they spew as gospel"

Case in point, I have a file drawer filled with official VFH licensing documents (that does not cover every jurisdiction in the U.S.) whose numbers contained therein surpass the numbers reported by LCT. Digest has a team of researches who diligently research the numbers. Yet, some LCT scammers will lay claim that no one has researched the numbers.

Now why would the NLA with approximately 2k members want the world to believe that there are only 10k operators vice 14k or more according to other sources? What's the difference if they lay claim to representing 20% vice 10 to 15% of the Industry? Got me. Hell, my small alliance has only a dozen active associates. Never mind that 25% of us have federal lawsuits going covering interstate commerce issues, federal preemptions & other surprise issues that will most likely result in changing elements of the VFH Industry in Florida when all is said and done.

Ooops, just wiped out any LCT/NLA argument of quality membership as they sure as hell haven't accomplished anything noteworthy & it looks like their RIDE Act amendment is doomed to failure with the AAAE on the warpath.

[Wade Randolph]

Go to this site to see my point www.lindseylimo.com (http://www.lindseylimo.com) Michael is a good guy and a good operator, but really the caption is misleading to anyone but us savy in the business.

[gunny]

Originally posted by Wade Randolph:
Go to this site to see my point www.lindseylimo.com (http://www.lindseylimo.com) Michael is a good guy and a good operator, but really the caption is misleading to anyone but us savy in the business.

How about this one
Greene Classic #1 in America (http://www.greeneclassiclimousine.com/about/awards.asp)

Shit, I thought my Buddy Billy of Clique Limo was voted #1 in 2003?

[Wade Randolph]

Gunny how about this:

"Voted best chauffeurs 2007"
"Voted best vehicles 2007"
"Voted best owner 2007"
"voted best office 2007"

Hell the list could go on forever!

[Limo Scene]

Wade,

In my local phone book, there is an ad for Blue Ribbon Limousine that says, "Voted #1 in Kern County".

The gentleman that owns the company is much older than me. In fact I have been expecting him to have a heart attack for the past 15 years.

I do respect him for his business mind and the fact that he owns a potato packing shed, a used car lot, an auction house and lots of apartments so I do try to pick his brain from time to time over a beer.

I asked him, who voted you number one in Kern County? He replied, "I did!". I said, you can't just make statements that you were voted number on in Kern County. He replied, "Sure you can. You can put anything you want in your ad because you're the one paying for it" and he believes this is ethical and shrewed business.......

[Wade Randolph]

Originally posted by Limo Scene:
Wade,

In my local phone book, there is an ad for Blue Ribbon Limousine that says, "Voted #1 in Kern County".

The gentleman that owns the company is much older than me. In fact I have been expecting him to have a heart attack for the past 15 years.

I do respect him for his business mind and the fact that he owns a potato packing shed, a used car lot, an auction house and lots of apartments so I do try to pick his brain from time to time over a beer.

I asked him, who voted you number one in Kern County? He replied, "I did!". I said, you can't just make statements that you were voted number on in Kern County. He replied, "Sure you can. You can put anything you want in your ad because you're the one paying for it" and he believes this is ethical and shrewed business.......

LOL Luff he sounds like the typical limo operator.

[D. Hartson]

Quote:

All I can say is:

AMEN STEVE! If you don't like it, QUIT BUYING IT!

If you don't believe it, QUIT READING IT!

I don't read the National Enquirer because I don't believe it. It would be ridiculous to buy it and then argue the "facts" contained within the pages.

Again, who cares????? I swear it equates to who has a bigger penis mentality. It isn't a worth while debate. If it they report 9,612 and someone else reports 10,413 WHAT difference does it make??????
________________________________________________
Jim,
Your background of a family member that worked in the media, you know that certain ethics do exist. It seems you are reacting like you are being attacked personally! This is not the case. LCT has been printing as you know unverified information for many years before your association with the publication. Pressure from the public keeps all media publications (including Digest) in line with demanding accurate and truthful information. The New York Times as an example is always under the microscope because of the following descriptions of media behavior. Providing information to a Industry such as ours, as small as it is, needs to have information that helps the Industry grow with information that is as close to reality as it can. Unverified information can be used to sway influence on the effect of the behavior of the industry at large. Please review the 3 codes of ethics in Journalism below! Enjoy your day!

Sensationalism

sen•sa•tion•al•ism [sen-sey-shuh-nl-iz-uh m]
the use of or interest in this subject matter, language, or style: The cheap tabloids relied on sensationalism to increase their circulation.

Many believe that sensationalism is a practice of media corporations especially through Television News whereby the use of pictures and footage overpowers the story creating a different and often biased viewpoint

Controversy is created "when journalists confine themselves to the search for the violent or the miraculous, not only do they paint a grotesque face on the world, but they deprive their audiences of the opportunity to examine subtler occurrences with larger consequences" (Stephens, 2007:113).

Truth

truth\ˈtrüth\

the body of real things, events, and facts

The meaning of the word truth extends from honesty, good faith, and sincerity in general, to agreement with fact or reality in particular.[

Integrity
in•teg•ri•ty \in-ˈte-grə-tē\
firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values : INCORRUPTIBILITY

In discussions on behavior and morality, one view of the property of integrity sees it as the virtue of basing actions on an internally-consistent framework of principles

[Limo Scene]

Dave,

I don't take it personal. What bugs me is the spouting year after year with no substantial evidence to prove either magazine is that far off in their ESTIMATE.

I understand journalistic integrity after 4 years of high school journalism and two years on the university newspaper staff as editor in chief. I don't think there has ever been an effort to hide numbers, be involved in some conspiracy, try to skew the numbers to make the NLA look better etc. which are really insane arguments. I mean it has always been clear that Gunny hates LCT. There is nothing that LCT could ever do to change that fact. I truly believe that has something to do with me as when I wrote for Digest he had no complaints on this forum and once I moved over to LCT he began to bash the magazine and me.

A few years ago I was part of an LCT team that verified insurance policies for accuracy. A daunting task. For each operator that reported they had X amount of cars, it was my job to verify with their insurance carrier how many cars were actually insured under a given policy. I can tell you with all my heart the effort was certainly there to legitimize the process and great effort at a great amount of money was put forth.

This numbers rage, Redondo Beach school of numbers etc. has been going on for years. If they are so wrong someone should dispel it by producing their own report and cite exactly how they arrived at their number including documentation. Such as the inclusion of the list of operators from the California PUC. Dean gave me that list once. The list itself has such things as "suspended" or "revoked" or "surrendered" as well as Active status. So, shall we count the ones as "suspended" as they are technically still licensed but just suspended.

But then, guess what? Tomorrow that number will change because somebody didn't renew their Workers comp insurance or didn't file a PUCTRA report or who knows what.

Like I said, it is virtually impossible for any entity or individual to say with certainty how many operators exist on a given day.

But, if someone put together a comprehensive report gathered from the licensing authority of each state showing every single licensed company with a summary page after each state that says:

Alabama
Active: 392 Companies
Suspended: 23 Companies

Then a summary page after all states listing state by state the number of active licenses and suspended licenses we would have something to talk about. No one has done that and I have no desire to do as I simply don't care how many operators there are. But, those that are passionate about the issue should devote their time to compiling such a report.

Even then, the number would not be definitive because the project could not be completed in a single day and there are a handful of states that have no regulatory authority over limousines so those companies would just not be counted.

There is simply no way to ever know for sure and if there is, for the love of God, put up the report or...........well, you know, but my Mom says you should never say those two words so I won't.

[Geoff Levine]

Originally posted by gunny:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wade Randolph:
Go to this site to see my point www.lindseylimo.com (http://www.lindseylimo.com) Michael is a good guy and a good operator, but really the caption is misleading to anyone but us savy in the business.

How about this one
Greene Classic #1 in America (http://www.greeneclassiclimousine.com/about/awards.asp)

Shit, I thought my Buddy Billy of Clique Limo was voted #1 in 2003? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is a big company here in san diego(I like them and just think this is funny) that advertises "Voted best limousine company by so and so 2003". What happened to 2004-2008?

As a joke, I was going to start advertising "Limo Kings, voted #1 limousine service by san diego bartenders". Which is true of course. Everytime I ask a bartender which limo company is the best and their favorite, they say mine.

But it's easy to be cheesy, so I havn't given in yet. I say yet because it would still be pretty funny.

[Dean Schuler]

The difference is that Digest's circulation is meticulously researched while the vendors have seen your numbers as pure hackwork for years. They snicker behind your back, you know. The 1995 Fact Book mysteriously redid the figures of the 1989 Factbook relative to the number of operators. Do you think you own the industry ? Digest is certifying their numbers and you would do well to quit publishing anything to do with numbers. The Top 100 is always wrong and operatives have been vocal about the process when they see numbers that are clearly a figment of someone's imagination for a service in their local market. There is a professional template for running circulation in this country. It is very clear that you don't have it. The sad thing about this is that I still love LCT and always will.
Originally posted by Limo Scene:
Dave,

I don't take it personal. What bugs me is the spouting year after year with no substantial evidence to prove either magazine is that far off in their ESTIMATE.

I understand journalistic integrity after 4 years of high school journalism and two years on the university newspaper staff as editor in chief. I don't think there has ever been an effort to hide numbers, be involved in some conspiracy, try to skew the numbers to make the NLA look better etc. which are really insane arguments. I mean it has always been clear that Gunny hates LCT. There is nothing that LCT could ever do to change that fact. I truly believe that has something to do with me as when I wrote for Digest he had no complaints on this forum and once I moved over to LCT he began to bash the magazine and me.

A few years ago I was part of an LCT team that verified insurance policies for accuracy. A daunting task. For each operator that reported they had X amount of cars, it was my job to verify with their insurance carrier how many cars were actually insured under a given policy. I can tell you with all my heart the effort was certainly there to legitimize the process and great effort at a great amount of money was put forth.

This numbers rage, Redondo Beach school of numbers etc. has been going on for years. If they are so wrong someone should dispel it by producing their own report and cite exactly how they arrived at their number including documentation. Such as the inclusion of the list of operators from the California PUC. Dean gave me that list once. The list itself has such things as "suspended" or "revoked" or "surrendered" as well as Active status. So, shall we count the ones as "suspended" as they are technically still licensed but just suspended.

But then, guess what? Tomorrow that number will change because somebody didn't renew their Workers comp insurance or didn't file a PUCTRA report or who knows what.

Like I said, it is virtually impossible for any entity or individual to say with certainty how many operators exist on a given day.

But, if someone put together a comprehensive report gathered from the licensing authority of each state showing every single licensed company with a summary page after each state that says:

Alabama
Active: 392 Companies
Suspended: 23 Companies

Then a summary page after all states listing state by state the number of active licenses and suspended licenses we would have something to talk about. No one has done that and I have no desire to do as I simply don't care how many operators there are. But, those that are passionate about the issue should devote their time to compiling such a report.

Even then, the number would not be definitive because the project could not be completed in a single day and there are a handful of states that have no regulatory authority over limousines so those companies would just not be counted.

There is simply no way to ever know for sure and if there is, for the love of God, put up the report or...........well, you know, but my Mom says you should never say those two words so I won't.

[D. Hartson]

Jim,

I am more than pleased to know that you are one of the LCT people who verify the fleet size of Limousine Companies that apply for “Operator of the Year”. As you know in many past years, many operators did add numbers to their fleet size to try to win the Industry awards. One huge problem thou, you can’t always trust insurance agents to report the truth! They are in business too! Applying for an award should be based on active running vehicles only! I always said it should be based on Merit because that is what makes a company great! But it’s not.

The size of a company is really no big thing! If you have the credit, you can buy anything! Including awards. I know that the big issue for many years has been the Top 100 Limousine Operators in the country. On an ongoing basis, more than 20% the Top 100 has been found to be way off in number count. Not by a car or two Jim, this is no secret! Operators in cities who knows and works with their competitors, know well of their fleet size by a car or two. When the numbers of an Operators fleet size is published not even close, the local operators who know complain! I have heard it more times than you know. I know one operator for 2007 for a fact (inside information) his numbers were off by more than 15 vehicles and if the real numbers were reported; he would have not been on the list at all!

This is where the problems begin with the LCT, and this is what everyone is complaining about! This disqualifies Operators that have applied that might have made the list. That’s not right.

[gunny]

Originally posted by Limo Scene:

I mean it has always been clear that Gunny hates LCT. There is nothing that LCT could ever do to change that fact. I truly believe that has something to do with me as when I wrote for Digest he had no complaints on this forum and once I moved over to LCT he began to bash the magazine and me.

Don't flatter yourself ole pudgy one. A sequence of events that I have no inclination to repeat in print but is contained within my many posts that took me from NLA Membership to hating the NLA to targeting the bullshit that the NLA had its very own propaganda rag (LCT) print. As my attacks have become less frequent is in part, as I believe, a direct result that LCT/NLA knows I will call them out on any bullshit they print.

LCT as proven by the Herring incident wants 110% control of what is placed before the Industry's too trusting eyeballs & when they loss control of the Holier Than Thou Herring eulogy which resulted in the call by you professionals to blackball a couple of individuals who may or may not have decided to set the record a little straighter, LCT in its jouralistic professionalism found it more convenient to delete the entire blog & reposted it asking for no comments. Can we say control freaks?

Your tangles with me as recorded on this forum has been mostly caused by you stepping into the line of fire in protectionism of your rag. I'm in a farking war if you haven't heard & I have proven time & time again through research that the enemy is directly linked to the NLA & TLPA leadership. Of course yourself & others would never respond or comment to the B & W evidence & facts I have presented over the years out of fear that Sara & Co would not approve. Nor will your rag that supposedly represents the Industry would hold any of the individuals who violate the very code of ethics that the NLA spits out to the public accountable for injury caused to operators not within the Bobit elite circle.

You, yourself admits that you have had to verify the vehicle count submitted by operators. My question is why do you have to verify the numbers that is provided by mostly NLA members if its membership is composed of such honorable people? What a crock of shit. But just as you validate those numbers & hold those operators accountable, others & I will continue to hold LCT accountable & I think they know it.

My accountability approach with LCT has nothing to do with Luff & I have hardly ever even responded to articles you have written minus my ribbing about the "eating your way to success".

Can I cite instances where the NLA & LCT deflates numbers & then inflates other numbers to suit their purpose? Hell yeah! But, some things are just not worth the effort as the battle moves into another phase & more important things need to be addressed. Besides, kicking LCT & the "when was the last time they accomplished anything" NLA around lately is about as much fun as kicking a dead dog.

Do I hate LCT? Yeah, but not as much as I hate the NLA & TLPA.

[gunny]

Originally posted by Wade Randolph:
Gunny how about this:

"Voted best chauffeurs 2007"
"Voted best vehicles 2007"
"Voted best owner 2007"
"voted best office 2007"

Hell the list could go on forever!

Here's another:
We Are #1 In The Nation!!! (http://www.aventuralimo.com/welcome.htm)

Didn't Aventura get called out on the number of vehicles they reported last year????

[Limo Insurance King]

Originally posted by Limo Scene:
Even then, the number would not be definitive because the project could not be completed in a single day and there are a handful of states that have no regulatory authority over limousines so those companies would just not be counted.

The Democrats did this and they didn't have much trouble doing it.

[Dean Schuler]

Luff speaks nonsense. We mapped the industry long ago for optimal circulation accuracy. My first love LCT-has been producing hackwork numbers for years in the opinion of the vendors and industry researchers and myself-and I am along with RICHARD RAMIS, the ranking chauffeured transportation trade researcher. This is very hard to say as I admire the BOBITS & their personnel greatly for their industry contributions.
Originally posted by Limo Insurance King:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Limo Scene:
Even then, the number would not be definitive because the project could not be completed in a single day and there are a handful of states that have no regulatory authority over limousines so those companies would just not be counted.

The Democrats did this and they didn't have much trouble doing it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Limo Scene]

So Dean,

Define "We" - who is this "we" that "mapped the circulation" and what the hell does that mean?

Are we talking about counting operators to know how many magazines to print to make sure everyone has their own copy of an industry magazine?

I mean, we all know that no one has to pay for Digest as they send it to everyone for free. Only boneheads actually pay for it. I have received it month after month for 18 years and never ONCE paid a dime to them. So, are you saying that you counted operators to know how many free copies to print for circulation purposes?

And where are your numbers that "WE" put together over a decade ago. I seriously doubt anything you counted years ago would have ANY relevance TODAY. Do you remember 9/11 Dean? Do you remember what it did to the industry. Many, many operators went belly up. How about Katrina? A little closer to home for you. How many operators never came back? You get my point? Times changes. Move with it!

Your old school numbers flew right out the window dude when the industry rolled over and played dead for nearly a year.

I have been on this forum since 2001 or seven years and while you have always argued about the numbers, not once in nearly a decade have you dispelled anything or any fact about the count. You boo hoo about it every year but never get off your ass to do a CURRENT research project to prove anything except resting on some count you did a quarter of a century ago and spouting on the forum after too much Johnny Walker or Chevis!

There is no way you could have possibly counted every single limousine company in the last decade. Perhaps in the 70's when you did your little count that was possible but I stand by the fact that it cannot be done today as an exact count. We are in a recession and I guarantee you someone will close their doors this week.

It is now time to put up or finally shut up about this subject that you have worn out like a well played fiddle. Show your results you spew about TODAY. Show how you researched it in the last two years because any results beyond two years doesn't matter today and is not even close to accurate.

All talk - no action!

SHOW US YOUR RESULTS STATE BY STATE.

Speaking of Richard Ramis, has ANYONE on this forum ever heard of him? Ever see him at a trade show? Ever hear him speak to the industry at a trade show?

I am looking for simply yes or no answers from the members of this forum on this question about Richard Ramis.

Right.........I believe at some point in life we all become a "has been".

Today the industry leaders are the likes of Scott Solombrino, Tommy Mazza, Dawson Rutter, Richard Kane and George Jacobs. This is not to say that I support all of these men or even believe in these men but it is what it is and they are who they are and they are all doing better than you and I so I consider them to be leaders as I sure want to follow in their footsteps and have over 100 vehicles and have multi-million dollar revenues instead just one million.

Let's pay attention to what people in the business today are saying. No one cares how things were 25 years ago! Thanks for the blood pressure boost on a Monday morning.......

Here we go....................

[Dean Schuler]

The May Publishers Page Limousine Digest spells it all out . Your hand is non-existent in this game and you don't flatter yourself by acting like a total fool.
Originally posted by Limo Scene:
So Dean,

Define "We" - who is this "we" that "mapped the circulation" and what the hell does that mean?

Are we talking about counting operators to know how many magazines to print to make sure everyone has their own copy of an industry magazine?

I mean, we all know that no one has to pay for Digest as they send it to everyone for free. Only boneheads actually pay for it. I have received it month after month for 18 years and never ONCE paid a dime to them. So, are you saying that you counted operators to know how many free copies to print for circulation purposes?

And where are your numbers that "WE" put together over a decade ago. I seriously doubt anything you counted years ago would have ANY relevance TODAY. Do you remember 9/11 Dean? Do you remember what it did to the industry. Many, many operators went belly up. How about Katrina? A little closer to home for you. How many operators never came back? You get my point? Times changes. Move with it!

Your old school numbers flew right out the window dude when the industry rolled over and played dead for nearly a year.

I have been on this forum since 2001 or seven years and while you have always argued about the numbers, not once in nearly a decade have you dispelled anything or any fact about the count. You boo hoo about it every year but never get off your ass to do a CURRENT research project to prove anything except resting on some count you did a quarter of a century ago and spouting on the forum after too much Johnny Walker or Chevis!

There is no way you could have possibly counted every single limousine company in the last decade. Perhaps in the 70's when you did your little count that was possible but I stand by the fact that it cannot be done today as an exact count. We are in a recession and I guarantee you someone will close their doors this week.

It is now time to put up or finally shut up about this subject that you have worn out like a well played fiddle. Show your results you spew about TODAY. Show how you researched it in the last two years because any results beyond two years doesn't matter today and is not even close to accurate.

All talk - no action!

SHOW US YOUR RESULTS STATE BY STATE.

Speaking of Richard Ramis, has ANYONE on this forum ever heard of him? Ever see him at a trade show? Ever hear him speak to the industry at a trade show?

I am looking for simply yes or no answers from the members of this forum on this question about Richard Ramis.

Right.........I believe at some point in life we all become a "has been".

Today the industry leaders are the likes of Scott Solombrino, Tommy Mazza, Dawson Rutter, Richard Kane and George Jacobs. This is not to say that I support all of these men or even believe in these men but it is what it is and they are who they are and they are all doing better than you and I so I consider them to be leaders as I sure want to follow in their footsteps and have over 100 vehicles and have multi-million dollar revenues instead just one million.

Let's pay attention to what people in the business today are saying. No one cares how things were 25 years ago! Thanks for the blood pressure boost on a Monday morning.......

Here we go....................

[gunny]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Limo Scene:
Today the industry leaders are the likes of Scott Solombrino, Tommy Mazza, Dawson Rutter, Richard Kane and George Jacobs. ......../QUOTE]

What % of the folks on these Boards have ever heard of these people no less the estimated 10-15k operators in the Nation. We have some of these so called leaders of the limo industry operating within a very narrow scope whose business survival relies on the birds flying, 1 who makes a living running seminars (those who are good at their profession - do, those who aren't good - teach), & a glorified taxi baron is included.

If Leadership of this Industry is graded upon influencing others to join forces & fight for common goals, the Leadership rates a big fat "F". For an Industry that strokes itself on being the conveyers of the rich, famous & powerful elite, it sure as hell is inept regardless of how much self esteem stroking they want to do.

As I stated before, bitching about the inaction of the NLA is about as much fun as kicking a dead dog around lately.

<span class="ev_code_RED">N</span>o <span class="ev_code_RED">L</span>egitimate <span class="ev_code_RED">A</span>ccomplishments

[D. Hartson]

Jim, Dude! Does you diaper needs to be changed? Take a pill and relax! Take your blood pressure ….don’t have an aneurism.
________________________________________________
Quote: Limo Scene
I mean, we all know that no one has to pay for Digest as they send it to everyone for free. Only boneheads actually pay for it. I have received it month after month for 18 years and never ONCE paid a dime to them. So, are you saying that you counted operators to know how many free copies to print for circulation purposes?
________________________________________________

First, you are receiving a complementary copy of the Limousine Digest Magazine because of your past contributions to the publication. It seems to me that your appreciation for the magazine has no value to you. Your statement about it being free is not true. You should not assume something that is not fact. You know Dean or myself can fix your complementary copy and can be stopped if you wish.

________________________________________________
Quote: Limo Scene
You boo hoo about it every year but never get off your ass to do a CURRENT research project to prove anything except resting on some count you did a quarter of a century ago and spouting on the forum after too much Johnny Walker or Chevis!
_______________________________________________
Someone’s consumption of a beverage? What are you thinking! This statement lacks class (NONE)

________________________________________________
Quote: Limo Scene
Today the industry leaders are the likes of Scott Solombrino, Tommy Mazza, Dawson Rutter, Richard Kane and George Jacobs
_______________________________________________
Very few operators will ever become the size of these operations. You can not judge this Industry simply on these few large Operators. With no disrespect for any of these people, I and I know them well and call them my friends, if this is the way you see it, then this would mean you are a pollywog in the Industry as we know it!

________________________________________________
Quote: Limo Scene
Let's pay attention to what people in the business today are saying. No one cares how things were 25 years ago!
_______________________________________________
You need to know your History to know where you came from is to know where you are going! Maybe you should ask around the LCT to find out who Richard Ramis is!
_______________________________________________
Quote: Limo Scene
All talk - no action!

SHOW US YOUR RESULTS STATE BY STATE
_______________________________________________
Jim, you know better than this! Dean spends many hours researching the numbers from states and has the facts. You don’t do this, so how would you know?

[Limo Scene]

Blah, blah, blah.......

I'm sorry, I meant to say I was looking for legitimate responders not Dean's side-kick. Again, where are the numbers???? Who is WE? Answer the question Dean and quit pulling a Hillary Clinton run-around answer that says nothing.

I KNOW who Richard Ramis is. I also know who George Washington is. Niether have anything to do with the period of time we live in TODAY.

I don't need my diaper changed but I would be happy to hand you a tissue Dave - seems you have something brown on your nose from following too close behind Dean. I guess he stopped and you didn't anticipate it.

Don't be an idiot Dave, I wrote for Digest in early 2000. I was getting my FREE copy of Digest LONG before that and it continued after that. It has nothing to do with my contributions. I couldn't care less if you guys cut me off or not. And, Dave, your opinion of me is the least of my worries as I know the opinion of you by many. You had a little limo company and you couldn't keep it going. You have had job after job trying to keep yourself in the business but really you are merely on the sidelines looking in. I mean, if you are so good.... what happened at Executive? What happened at The Wynn? What happened with the concierge/meeting planner job, what happened to your little business of selling hats and umbrellas? I have been doing the same thing, year after year with success and you, you can't succeed at anything you try but yet you so desperately want to stay a part of the industry that you volunteer to contribute articles to digest.

As I said, here we go! The gloves are off and I am not holding back. PUT UP THE NUMBERS! SHOW ME THE NUMBERS! For the record, I don't give a rat's ass about them but for the love of God we need to put this subject to rest. You want to ask me about having my diaper changed?
Look out cause I am just getting started. I have had quite enough being kicked around. It's personal now.

I run a profitable limousine business that has been on the grow since the day we opened the doors. I write for a magazine because they pay me well to share how we took a one car company in Bakersfield, CA and grew it to more than a million dollar a year business in Bakersfield, California. If you don't like me, so be it. I have enough friends I don't care but don't bash me just because I asked for the numbers to be posted here and that we quit hearing about 25 year old data. I don't deserve that for merely asking for proof.

[D. Hartson]

Jim,

Your agenda consist of denial and character assassinations. I suggest we deal with facts. Review your complementary Limousine Digest Industry guide for the facts.

David Hartson
Limousine Digest
West Coast Editor

[gunny]

Just another year of LCT putting those Factual Stats together!

And The Number Of Operators For New Yawk Is

[Dean Schuler]

I took the high road with you because you are an exceptional operator and a friend. You are dead wrong on this post and are arguing a hopeless cause. The professional associations, Ford and Cadillac and the other vendors and the major media know for a fact that the circulation numbers LCT publishes are incorrect. Digest has certified their numbers. LCT's have been wrong for many years. As far as the Top 100 goes, every year it is full of errors. LCT is a fine magazine and has done much for the industry. They should not be the management company of the NLA and they need to let go of the School of Numbers Game. And you, my friend, deal your image and your many achievements a severe blow when you promote falsehoods. Lest the readers think that Grandmaster Luff is not a friend of mine and someone whom I hold in the highest respect, please note that I will be attending his festival in September 2008. I will also be paying Wayne Blanchard's way to the Festival. Perhaps Jim will be so kind and post the link to the festival and the charities that it benefits.



Blah, blah, blah.......

I'm sorry, I meant to say I was looking for legitimate responders not Dean's side-kick. Again, where are the numbers???? Who is WE? Answer the question Dean and quit pulling a Hillary Clinton run-around answer that says nothing.

I KNOW who Richard Ramis is. I also know who George Washington is. Niether have anything to do with the period of time we live in TODAY.

I don't need my diaper changed but I would be happy to hand you a tissue Dave - seems you have something brown on your nose from following too close behind Dean. I guess he stopped and you didn't anticipate it.

Don't be an idiot Dave, I wrote for Digest in early 2000. I was getting my FREE copy of Digest LONG before that and it continued after that. It has nothing to do with my contributions. I couldn't care less if you guys cut me off or not. And, Dave, your opinion of me is the least of my worries as I know the opinion of you by many. You had a little limo company and you couldn't keep it going. You have had job after job trying to keep yourself in the business but really you are merely on the sidelines looking in. I mean, if you are so good.... what happened at Executive? What happened at The Wynn? What happened with the concierge/meeting planner job, what happened to your little business of selling hats and umbrellas? I have been doing the same thing, year after year with success and you, you can't succeed at anything you try but yet you so desperately want to stay a part of the industry that you volunteer to contribute articles to digest.

As I said, here we go! The gloves are off and I am not holding back. PUT UP THE NUMBERS! SHOW ME THE NUMBERS! For the record, I don't give a rat's ass about them but for the love of God we need to put this subject to rest. You want to ask me about having my diaper changed?
Look out cause I am just getting started. I have had quite enough being kicked around. It's personal now.

I run a profitable limousine business that has been on the grow since the day we opened the doors. I write for a magazine because they pay me well to share how we took a one car company in Bakersfield, CA and grew it to more than a million dollar a year business in Bakersfield, California. If you don't like me, so be it. I have enough friends I don't care but don't bash me just because I asked for the numbers to be posted here and that we quit hearing about 25 year old data. I don't deserve that for merely asking for proof.[/QUOTE]

[Limo Scene]

Thank you for the opportunity to share the festival with people. I am totally thrilled to hear that you are bringing my buddy Wayne.

Village Festival (http://www.bakersfieldbrews.com)

Please view the tabs on the left and check out all the information on the site.

Dean, I will of course provide your transportation and get your hotel rooms and OF COURSE provide you and Wayne with All Access VIP passes as I did the last time you attended.

[Wade Randolph]

Limopromoter why don't you cut the crap? You are obviously here to get your quotes picked up by the major search engines. Greenpala do you know this guy?

[Limopromoter]

Limopromoter why don't you cut the crap? You are obviously here to get your quotes picked up by the major search engines. Greenpala do you know this guy?[/QUOTE]


search engine for what???

I don't have a site

World's Greatest Salesperson as attested by the Guinness Book of World Records

What did he do?
He worked for that little company called Chevrolet ?

as far as the yellow pages
the majority of the public now use the internet as their #1 source for information
Yellow pages have fixed advertising that you may have paid for months ago.

Online they can usually be updated and filled with lots more info

I've worked in advertising and sales since the 90's

Alan

[Dean Schuler]

Limopromoter, Every market has its "screwy louie ". Just move along now boy...
Limopromoter why don't you cut the crap? You are obviously here to get your quotes picked up by the major search engines. Greenpala do you know this guy?[/QUOTE]


search engine for what???

I don't have a site

World's Greatest Salesperson as attested by the Guinness Book of World Records

What did he do?
He worked for that little company called Chevrolet ?

as far as the yellow pages
the majority of the public now use the internet as their #1 source for information
Yellow pages have fixed advertising that you may have paid for months ago.

Online they can usually be updated and filled with lots more info

I've worked in advertising and sales since the 90's

Alan[/QUOTE]

[Dean Schuler]

Jim, We need to talk Wayne into coming-if not then WADE needs to come.
Originally posted by Limo Scene:
Thank you for the opportunity to share the festival with people. I am totally thrilled to hear that you are bringing my buddy Wayne.

Village Festival (http://www.bakersfieldbrews.com)

Please view the tabs on the left and check out all the information on the site.

Dean, I will of course provide your transportation and get your hotel rooms and OF COURSE provide you and Wayne with All Access VIP passes as I did the last time you attended.

[Limo Scene]

Dean,

I will call Wayne today and see if I can't
"motivate" him to come out. Then again, he will read this today as he's a lurker.

Wayne, you need to be here.

I put in an order for a van again Dean - just yesterday - to make sure we have a ride for all of us.

[Dean Schuler]

Most Excellent Grandmaster Luff ! Wayne's ticket is paid for if he comes. This is a serious festival.
Originally posted by Limo Scene:
Dean,

I will call Wayne today and see if I can't
"motivate" him to come out. Then again, he will read this today as he's a lurker.

Wayne, you need to be here.

I put in an order for a van again Dean - just yesterday - to make sure we have a ride for all of us.

[Dean Schuler]

The Survey Book is a more accurate name.

[Limo Scene]

Agreed!