NLA - Love It or Leave It?

In the past two months there have been a number of postings in these forums concerning the NLA, the functions and responsibilities of NLA officers, directors and staff, deviation from the by-laws of the organization, and general criticism. Those who have been following these forums know that a number of questions have been posed to NLA directors, and few answered. After waiting a couple of weeks and putting the CTCP issue on "hold" while the results of the certification forum are compiled and distributed, and giving the NLA directors who have participated and lurked here ample opportunity to answer numerous questions without response, it is now time to refocus attention on the management of NLA.
This topic has been named along the lines of the arguments made during the Viet Nam war - "America, Love It or Leave It." Hidden in that phrase was the implication that the policies of the U.S. government were beyond criticism and that if citizens didn't agree with them, they should simply leave. For whatever reason, this seems also to be the prevailing attitude of the NLA, and the organization has reacted to criticism in these forums with the same stonewalling techniques used in the late 1960s and early 1970s by the Federal government and its supporters - hence, the name of this topic.
Those who have been following these forums know that I have always put forward my agenda as to NLA: (1) Terminate the management contract with Host Communciations; (2) Replace the by-laws of NLA with something that assures member democracy and director and staff accountability; (3) Move NLA headquarters back to the Washington, D.C. area; and (4) Locate and hire an experienced association executive who will hire a qualified and competent staff.
This new topic is intended to initate a more organized discussion of the structure of NLA, compliance by the board, its officers and its staff with the by-laws, its financial affairs, the accountability of the directors, officers and staff (or lack thereof), and the need for change.
The intention here is to avoid any ad hominem references that are not supported by fact, but to focus sharply on the issues without distraction.
Insofar as possible, each post shall deal with one subject since it appears that when an NLA director responds to a post he or she thinks they have "answered" the questions raised if he or she addresses a small part of the issue and ignores the remainder.
Please do not mix comments or responses to posts! If you have a comment or response to a post, reply to it and confine your comments or responses to the particular post. This may mean that participants here will respond to several posts, rather than one that contains multiple subjects, but it is the only way to keep everyone focused on the issues.
I will be raising many questions which, if not answered here, will be posed directly to NLA in private communications and which, if not responded to, will be pursued, if necessary, by legal means in the District of Columbia (where NLA is incorporated). So if members of NLA don't want their dues being spent to pay high-priced Washington lawyers to avoid providing information that the members are entitled to have, this forum should provide the means for NLA to avoid doing so.
Having said that, here we go . . . . . .

The Annual Meeting -
The by-laws of NLA, at Article 5, Section A, provide for an annual meeting of the members of NLA at a time and place to be set by the board of directors. The by-laws also require that 10% of the voting members of NLA must be present in person or by proxy to establish a quorum to conduct business. Section B of Article 5 provides that written notice of the date, time, place and purpose of any meeting of the members shall be given by mail to all members of NLA not less than 30-45 days (whatever that means) prior to the date of the meeting. Section D provides that members of the NLA may vote at the annual meeting by proxy, but requires that the proxy be on file at the office of NLA prior to the meeting and be in a form determined by the Board of Directors, and that a signature card must be on file at the Executive Director's office for verification before all meetings.
Given those requirements, a number of questions have been posed, none of which have been previously answered. Forum participants are invited to provide input on any of these questions.
1. Has any NLA member ever received the required notice of an annual or special meeting of the members? Has such a notice ever been given?
2. Has any NLA member ever been solicited to give his or her proxy to vote at any meeting of the members? If so, what did the form of proxy look like? What form of proxy has been "approved" by the Board of Directors? Has anyone ever submitted a signature card to the Executive Director? What does that form look like? Is there a form to submit a signature?
3. Has there ever been a legally constituted meeting (i.e., 10% of members present in person or by proxy) of the members of NLA since its organization in 1986? If there has been no legal meeting (I am informed that there has not been), how have any directors been legally elected? How has any business been conducted? Are there minutes of any such meetings?
The point here is that despite the provisions of the by-laws, SOMEONE is conducting NLA business in an extra-legal fashion and without the authority intended by the by-laws. This has robbed the members of any active role in the government of NLA and has permitted a few persons to usurp all of the powers of the membership and remain virtually unaccountable to the members.

The Management Contract -
Few members know that the NLA staff is not employed by NLA. Since its inception years ago when NLA was a much smaller organization, management of NLA was out-sourced. As I understand it, from the beginning and for some years NLA contracted with Wayne Smith's company to "manage" NLA. More recently, management of NLA has been contracted out to Host Communications, which is a subsidiary or Bull Run Corporation, a publicly-held company. For information on these companies, see http://www.hostcommunications.com Click on "About Bull Run" for information on the parent company, and also look at the most recent financial statements. Also look at the other associations which Host "manages."
Now, for the issue at hand.
The management contract with Host Communications expires at the end of this year. Why should it be renewed? Why does NLA need to out-source its management? When an association is too small to financially support its own management it may be advisable to contract for management with a company that manages several associations to spread overhead costs. But that does not appear to be the case here. It is perfectly possible for NLA to employ its own Executive Director and staff, rent its own offices, own its own office equipment, and attend to its own affairs without the need for another company to make a profit (at the expense of NLA) managing NLA.
Equally important is the inherent conflict of interest in such a management contract. It has already reared its ugly head once, perhaps twice. When NLA decided that it needed to replace its dismal website, we are told by one NLA director that it solicited interest from three (maybe four) companies who were interested in developing the new web site. This is astounding because there are literally thousands (if not tens of thousands) of companies in the business of developing and managing web sites. We are also told that of those, not all submitted proposals (perhaps because they knew the job was "wired" from the start), and only one appeared in Vancouver at the NLA board meeting to make a presentation, and that company was awarded the contract. The company - Host Interactive, an affiliate of Host Communications. How much was the contract to develop the web site? How much is NLA goinf to pay to maintain the web site after it's up and running? No one will say! Are NLA members entitled to know? Yes! More recently, it has been heard that NLA may be moving to terminate its relationship with Bobit Publishing (publisher of LCT magazine) with respect to sponsorship of the annual limousine show in Las Vegas. Needless to say, these shows make a lot of money. Who might NLA associate with to sponsor the limousine show - you guessed it right, Host Communications! Look at the Host web site and you will see that one of the areas Host wants to do business in is trade shows. Is NLA really driving this move away from Bobit, or is Host manipulating the NLA board of directors?
It's time to dump Host, not only because out-sourcing management is unnecessary, but because as long as the "management company" is in affiliated lines of business, there is an inherent conflict of interest and a tendency for it to pick the low-hanging fruit offered by NLA.

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 09-26-2000).]

Nomination of Directors -
Before any member can be elected as a director of NLA, he or she must pass through the "Nominating Committee." The Nominating Committee is created by the by-laws of NLA at Article 5, section I(b). The Nominating Committe is charged with the task of issuing a "report" to all members, identifying those persons that the committee thinks should be eligible to serve as NLA directors. There is NO OTHER PROCEDURE in the by-laws to run for NLA director - no petition by the members, nothing, NADA. The Nominating Committee has a "chokehold" on the control of NLA because it, and it alone, like old Soviet Politboro, determines who may be an NLA director. Last year, the Nominating Committee gave us 6 candidates for 5 open directorships. In other words, the Nominating Committee effectively gave the members no choice. What criteria does the committee use to select candidates? Apparently, far more than the bare bones qualifications provided in the by-laws, for the committee has developed the practice of selecting candidates by "region" - East, Central and West (whatever those terms mean). Nothing in the by-laws of NLA mandates or even permits selection of directors by region - yet this all-powerful group has written such a procedure into the internal government of NLA. Who are these people? Is what they are doing lawful?
Article 5, Section I(b) provides that the Nominating Committee shall be appointed by the President and shall consist of five members of NLA, four of whom shall be members of the NLA board. The fifth member is supposed to be appointed from the NLA general membership. The most interesting thing about this arrangement is that the chokehold on nomination of directors is maintained by a committee that is solely appointed by the president of NLA, which gives him or her almost complete control over who is or is not going to be nominated for election to the board of directors. Now for the interesting part - the July (2000) LimoScene says the chairman of the Nominating Committee is Cory Rozen (who is not identified in the 2000-2001 NLA Directory as a board member, but who is identified as a director eligible for reelection in the LimoScene - what is going on here???). The other members of the Nominating Committee are: David Seelinger, Don Kensey, Randy Throckmorton, Curt Andrews, Mike Bedard and Kay Hoskins. By my count, this is a committee of seven instead of the mandated five. By the way, LimoScene refers to "the following seven members of NLA," and then lists six. David Seelinger is listed in the 2000-2001 NLA Directory as a director, as is Kay Hoskins. Good people though they may or may not be (who knows), Kensey, Throckmorton, Andrews and Bedard are not directors. Only one of them can be on the Nominating Committee, assuming that Rozen is a director even though he is not listed as such in the NLA Directory. In other words, this Nominating Committee is totally unlawfully constituted and its recommendations are a nullity. If that isn't enough, the committee's nominations go on to an election at an annual meeting that isn't lawfully called or organized. The end result of all these shenanigans is that the board is not lawfully constituted and any business it contracts for is not duly authorized, and NLA is operating, plain and simply, as a rogue organization.
As bad as the by-laws are, they are required to be followed. Until they can be revised, they need to be enforced - legally, if necessary. Members need to maintain oversight of NLA, particularly in the up-coming elections and the non-existent annual meeting at which directors are putatively elected.

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 09-26-2000).]

The Director Shell Game -
One of the more interesting aspects of the structure and management of NLA is the director shell game. It appears that there are persons sitting on the NLA board of directors who do not meet the requirements to be a director. When challenged, the response is, "Well, they don't vote." Who knows whether they do or don't? Does that matter, since they can seriously influence NLA policy? Let's look at what's going on here.
First, Sara Eastwood-McLean (nee McLean) is an employee of Bobit Publishing. She is listed in the 2000-2001 NLA Directory as a member of the board - not an "allied vendor," mind you, but a "director." She meets none of the qualification set forth in the by-laws to be a director, yet there she is! Second, there are listed four "Vendor Members" of the NLA board - Curt Andrews, Mike Bedard, Greg Casteel and Dave Ransom. Casteel is not in the limousine business anymore, and his company, Pinnacle Performance Systems, is no longer operating the Chauffeured Transportation Certification Program. The company is no longer eligible for NLA membership, and Casteel has no business on the board. But, then again, neither do two of the three remaining "Vendor Members." Let's look more closely at these folks. First of all, there is no such thing as a "Vendor Member," nor a "Supplier Member," as the term is sometimes used. Other than "Regular Active Members" and "Associations," the only other membership category is "Allied Trade Members." All of this is set forth in Article 3, Section A of the by-laws, under the heading "Types of Membership." Only persons who are "Regular Active Members" may sit on the board of directors. So what are these "Vendor Members" doing there? Who knows! Article 8 of the NLA by-laws, entitled "Chairmen and Executive Director," provides in Section A for an "Allied Trade Chairman." According to the by-laws, "One Allied Chairman shall be chosen by the NLA Board of Directors upon recommendation received from the Allied Trade members. The Allied Trade Chairman shall represent the members of his/her category, with a non-voting position on the Board of Directors." Well, which one of the four is the Allied Trade Chairman? Or do they take turns? Now you see it, now you don't - which shell is the real Allied Trade Chairman under? And why are they all listed as "Vendor Members" of the board, when there should only be one? Who's running this association anyway - it ain't the members!

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 09-26-2000).]

The "Real" Shell Game, or, "Money, Money, Who's Got the Money" -
I already posed the question above as to how much money NLA is paying to develop its new web site, and how much is it paying to maintain that site when it lights up. But this is only a small part of a much larger issue. Article 9, Section E of the by-laws of NLA, entitled "Audit of Accounts," provides that "[t]he accounts of the NLA shall be audited not less than annually by a certified public accountant who shall be appointed by the Board of Directors and sho shall provide a report to the Board of Directors and be supervised by the Executive Director." Are there any minutes of any meeting of the Board of Directors where a certified public accountant is appointed? Who is this person or firm? Is it someone the board appointed, or did Host Communications hire him or her? Has anyone been hired, as required by the by-laws? Is there an annual audited financial statement? Has anyone ever seen one? Any member can request such information, but I'm told that any such requests are met with the same response you get anytime you ask the NLA staff for anything - none. If a copy of the annual audited financial statements are not forthcoming shortly to persons who have asked for them, this matter is going to move into the legal arena.

My Point, And I Do Have One -
Among all of the issues of responsibility, accountability and association democracy and internal government raised in these posts, I must harken back to the post about the "management contract" with Host Communications. What does Host bring to the table for NLA - certainly Host has no clue what the by-laws say, or any intention of following those by-laws. Under Host, NLA has turned into a rogue organization that, before it is all over, is going to be not only an embarassment to prominent industry representatives who have hitched their wagon to the NLA star, but could lead to the collapse of the association itself and to ITLA becoming the dominant voice of the chauffeured transportation industry. And when we talk about management, let's take a look at the consolidated financial statements for Bull Run Corporation (the former gold-mining company that owns Host Communciations) and note that for the last two reported years it has operated at a considerable loss. And what about NLA? We need to find out.

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 09-26-2000).]

I don't know where to begin. Other than your innuendo about Host Communications, can you elaborate on why you want the NLA Board to terminate their contract? And as for competent staff? Bob Scott has worked tirelessly for this industry both in running the association at the Board's direction, and in Washington. The addition of Linda Bouland has been a Godsend!! She has wonderful time management skills, and a phenominal background that has allowed the NLA to upgrade the LimoScene and take on the CTCP.

Why in the world does it matter where the NLA HQ is?

As far as elections are concerned, it has been well publicized that there are several vacancies and how to run.

Cory Rozen is the Treasurer of the NLA. His name is listed on page 3 of the NLA Directory. Mike Bedard and I are NOT serving on the Nominating Committee as we are not voting memebers we cannot.
Additionally, your criticism of my serving on the Board is unfounded. Please refer to Article 3, Section A 3.f " Four vendor-members shall be added to the board, with a 1-year term, non-voting, and paying their own expenses."

As far as our annual audit is concerned, the board does hire an outside audit firm annually, and this information is available to members upon request.

I am outraged that you say Host has turned the NLA into a "rogue organization". We have made much progress in the last year in growing the association, the re-tooling of the CTCP, we've increased the number of and quality of communications with members through our monthly Road Shows, and we have established a very credible reputation in DC.

You may not agree with the board, but the board does work very hard on their own time and money to serve the membership. We are always open to discussion,

Curt

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Curt Andrews:
Other than your innuendo about Host Communications, can you elaborate on why you want the NLA Board to terminate their contract?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I thought I did. It is unnecessary to contract with a management company, there are conflicts of interest that are inimical to the interests of NLA, and you may be one of the few who thinks the staff is responsive.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And as for competent staff? Bob Scott has worked tirelessly for this industry both in running the association at the Board's direction, and in Washington. The addition of Linda Bouland has been a Godsend!! She has wonderful time management skills, and a phenominal background that has allowed the NLA to upgrade the LimoScene and take on the CTCP.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There is no question Bob Scott has worked hard for NLA but the buck stops with him, and he has to assume ultimate responsibility for the administrative and management failures. Contrary to your comments, Linda Bouland does not return phone calls or e-mail, and her non-responsiveness was the immediate cause of our company pulling out of the CTCP and obtaining a refund of our fees.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Why in the world does it matter where the NLA HQ is? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Because the center of gravity of a regulated industry is Washington. Why don't you call NLA headquarters and find out what the airline fare from Lexington, KY to DC is, and what the cumulative travel costs are so far for 2000 and post that information here for everyone to see - that post will answer much of your question. The next major reason is that for the same reason technology companies tend to cluster in specific area is because that's where the talented and experienced personnel are. The same is true of trade associations, the vast majority of which are locatyed in the Washington, D.C. area. There is a pool of experienced association executives in that area who, for the most part, are not going to relocate outside the beltway because of the long-term damage to their careers, and there is also an experienced pool of administrative talent for trade associations in that area. Perhaps the question that needs to be answered is, what is the NLA doing in Lexington, KY, which is convenient to almost no one?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As far as elections are concerned, it has been well publicized that there are several vacancies and how to run.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
How to run? I think you missed the point. It doesn't matter how to run because the Nominating Committee is inventing its own requirements to exclude people from running. Let me give you an example. Say that there are 5 vacancies to be filled. Let's also say that 10 members submit resumes to the committee and who desire to be nominated for election as directors. Let's also say that one of the members is from California, one is from Illinois and the other 8 are from the Eastern seaboard cities (Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore, etc.). Since the Nominating Committee has, without any authority whatsoever in the by-laws, taken it upon itself to categorize the directors by region, they would automatically nominate the two aspiring candidates from the West and Central "Regions," and then would presumably nominate one from the East, leaving still two vacancies. The reality is that 5 of the candidates from the East may be better qualified than the two from the Central and West "Regions," but they are excluded because of a "rogue" Nominating Committee. By the way, a "rogue" is something that is functioning outside the realm of natural or artificial laws - in this case, the Nominating Committee is ignoring the by-laws and inventing criteria to suit some agenda that the NLA members have not agreed upon.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Cory Rozen is the Treasurer of the NLA. His name is listed on page 3 of the NLA Directory. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm not sure what his position has to do with the Nominating Committee. If he is not a director, then he sits on the Nominating Committee as the ONE member who must come from the general membership.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Mike Bedard and I are NOT serving on the Nominating Committee as we are not voting memebers we cannot. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Then why did the "new and improved" LimoScene for July, 2000. in which you say Linda Bouland had "godsend" input, say that you ARE on the Nominating Committee?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Additionally, your criticism of my serving on the Board is unfounded. Please refer to Article 3, Section A 3.f " Four vendor-members shall be added to the board, with a 1-year term, non-voting, and paying their own expenses." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am aware of that provision, which is in direct conflict with the provision of the by-laws which I cited in the initial post. Of course, this doesn't surprise me, as there are a number of such inconsistencies in the by-laws. When provisions of the by-laws are in such obnvious conflict and no one has the presence of mind to correct them (I think NLA presently pays a "management" company that should be alert to these kinds of problems, but which isn't), courts must deal with the issue and this is expensive to the association. One of the provisions at least states how the one Allied Trade Chairman gets on the board - the one you cite does not. Tell us, Curt, how DID you get on the board? Who invented the procedure to put four vendors on the board? How are the four selected? This provision doesn't pass the "sniff test." Smells like something a rogue board did for reasons unknown to NLA members - perhaps by caving in to vendors? Who knows? Maybe you can tell us.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As far as our annual audit is concerned, the board does hire an outside audit firm annually, and this information is available to members upon request.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you know NLA does so, why don't you know who it is? And why have so many members reported their inability to obtain the "audited" financial statement? But let's put this to the test. Later today or tomorrow, I'll send a letter to NLA headquarters making a formal request for the audited financial statements for the last several years and we'll see what happens, and how fast.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I am outraged that you say Host has turned the NLA into a "rogue organization". We have made much progress in the last year in growing the association, the re-tooling of the CTCP, we've increased the number of and quality of communications with members through our monthly Road Shows, and we have established a very credible reputation in DC.

You may not agree with the board, but the board does work very hard on their own time and money to serve the membership. We are always open to discussion,

Curt<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It is getting very tireseome in these forums to keep hearing how directors do things on their own time, as volunteers and without pay. When they accepted nomination for election to be directors, that's what they signed on for. If they thought they were earning extra credit, they're wrong. Virtually every criticism of the directors is explained away by stating that they are unpaid volunteers, which apparently confers a mantle of immunity from criticism. The news flash is that it does not immunize them. You also seem to have extended my criticism of the nearly complete failure of Host, the directors and NLA staff to follow the rules which they are required to follow to some criticism of certain selected achievements. Although the putative achivements you cite give rise to opinions different than yours, I did not open this subject to second-guess the policy decisions or their efficacy, which is a subject that might be appropriate for newly-nominated directorship candidates to address. The subjects raised here are far more fundamental, such as basic association democracy, fiscal conduct and compliance with the law. Are you suggesting that because in your opinion there have been some achievements that the ends justify the means and we should "wink" at the gross misconduct of the governmental, legal and fiscal affairs of the association? This is like suggesting that if your chauffeur is willing to drive a company comp trip without pay that he may drive on the wrong side of the road, ignore traffic signals, fail to stop for a police officer, leave the scene of an accident and wreck the limousine, but that it's OK for him to do so as long as the passengers get to their destination and don't notice the infractions. I don't think so. Let's quit cheerleading and respond head-on to the issues that have been floating around these forums for months without response and which have been largely restated here.


[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 09-26-2000).]

I think both Jim and Curt made some valid points. Here is my take on a couple of items and some questions.

LCT demanded a seat on the NLA Board since we give the NLA the largest single item of revenue they get on a yearly basis, about 600 k total since 1990. We are a private company and our senior mgmt team decided we needed to be more hands on concerning where Bobit $ is spent. (You can argue its NLA $ because it is show revenue but I tend to believe the biggest single factor in show success is the Bobit Trade Show dept but sorry to digress.) If that needed a by law change then I guess Jim has a valid point.

I think Bob Scott is doing a good job. I think Jim you are being unfair to Bob in that the day he took over he has been in the middle of the 1689 fight. (at the behest of the members) Because Bob has devoted so much time to 1689, general office housekeeping has suffered.

I think the NLA office should be in DC but if you look at the $ spent on Host, they could not possibly pay for an office. I see the wisdom of getting Host as a company only if the NLA is intent on exploring other opportunities that Host could provide. I have talked to Host mgmt, VERY BRIGHT FOLKS, and their deal with the NLA right now is not a good one for them.

Curt, the NLA phone should be answered M-F 9-5 by a person within 3 rings. If a member calls, his call should be returned within 1 business day, no exceptions. I have received at least 13 complaints from members about this.

Nominating Issue: If your 35 years old, a US citizen, registered to vote and not convicted of a felony and you get x number of voters, your on the ballot for Congress. If your an NLA member, in good standing, you should be placed on the ballot, period. If bad people run for office, defeat them, that is what elections are for. Get rid of the nominating committee. I'm researching what other trade associations do and I may use my December column on this subject.

GOTTA FINISH A STORY I'M GETTING PAID FOR

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jhj:
The Management Contract -
Few members know that the NLA staff is not employed by NLA. Since its inception years ago when NLA was a much smaller organization, management of NLA was out-sourced. As I understand it, from the beginning and for some years NLA contracted with Wayne Smith's company to "manage" NLA. More recently, management of NLA has been contracted out to Host Communications, which is a subsidiary or Bull Run Corporation, a publicly-held company. For information on these companies, see http://www.hostcommunications.com Click on "About Bull Run" for information on the parent company, and also look at the most recent financial statements. Also look at the other associations which Host "manages."
Now, for the issue at hand.
The management contract with Host Communications expires at the end of this year. Why should it be renewed? Why does NLA need to out-source its management? When an association is too small to financially support its own management it may be advisable to contract for management with a company that manages several associations to spread overhead costs. But that does not appear to be the case here. It is perfectly possible for NLA to employ its own Executive Director and staff, rent its own offices, own its own office equipment, and attend to its own affairs without the need for another company to make a profit (at the expense of NLA) managing NLA.
Equally important is the inherent conflict of interest in such a management contract. It has already reared its ugly head once, perhaps twice. When NLA decided that it needed to replace its dismal website, we are told by one NLA director that it solicited interest from three (maybe four) companies who were interested in developing the new web site. This is astounding because there are literally thousands (if not tens of thousands) of companies in the business of developing and managing web sites. We are also told that of those, not all submitted proposals (perhaps because they knew the job was "wired" from the start), and only one appeared in Vancouver at the NLA board meeting to make a presentation, and that company was awarded the contract. The company - Host Interactive, an affiliate of Host Communications. How much was the contract to develop the web site? How much is NLA goinf to pay to maintain the web site after it's up and running? No one will say! Are NLA members entitled to know? Yes! More recently, it has been heard that NLA may be moving to terminate its relationship with Bobit Publishing (publisher of LCT magazine) with respect to sponsorship of the annual limousine show in Las Vegas. Needless to say, these shows make a lot of money. Who might NLA associate with to sponsor the limousine show - you guessed it right, Host Communications! Look at the Host web site and you will see that one of the areas Host wants to do business in is trade shows. Is NLA really driving this move away from Bobit, or is Host manipulating the NLA board of directors?
It's time to dump Host, not only because out-sourcing management is unnecessary, but because as long as the "management company" is in affiliated lines of business, there is an inherent conflict of interest and a tendency for it to pick the low-hanging fruit offered by NLA.

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 09-26-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Mr. Host told us straight up more than once, at board meetings, that a successful association( like the National Tour Association he manages ) has a magazine and it's own trade show, and that was the direction we needed to move in. Sincerely, Dean Schuler

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tom mazza:
LCT demanded a seat on the NLA Board since we give the NLA the largest single item of revenue they get on a yearly basis, about 600 k total since 1990. We are a private company and our senior mgmt team decided we needed to be more hands on concerning where Bobit $ is spent. (You can argue its NLA $ because it is show revenue but I tend to believe the biggest single factor in show success is the Bobit Trade Show dept but sorry to digress.) If that needed a by law change then I guess Jim has a valid point. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tom - You and I spoke about this briefly in Chicago. Absolutely, if it was a condition of Bobit's relationship with NLA that it have strings on the money it pays to NLA in the nature of a board seat, it required a by-law change. But I make the same point I made in Chicago, and that is that a board seat is a very clumsy way to handle the need for oversight. The appropriate way is to have the "strings" written into the contractual relationship between Bobit and NLA. This is a format that is used everyday with non-profits and is not mystery to qualified lawyers. It avoids ALL KINDS of problems that arise out of sitting on someone's board. But the whole thing makes my point about the callous disregard by NLA directors of the by-laws. Obviously, the members never knew how the Bobit seat on the board came to be, and one wonders how many other things the members don't know.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I think Bob Scott is doing a good job. I think Jim you are being unfair to Bob in that the day he took over he has been in the middle of the 1689 fight. (at the behest of the members) Because Bob has devoted so much time to 1689, general office housekeeping has suffered. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's hard to be very objective, Tom, when the only time you could ever talk to Bob was by refusing to get off the phone line and threaten that if he didn't talk to you you'd be in his office at 9:00 AM the next day, AND I'm still waiting for a phone call from him in response to a direct e-mail request made on July 29. Note that that date was a couple of weeks before I decided the whole bunch had to be run out of town and said so on this forum, so my public position in this forum was not the cause of him not calling me, it was the result.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I think the NLA office should be in DC but if you look at the $ spent on Host, they could not possibly pay for an office. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think if you look at the expense of having an office in Lexington, KY, including travel expenses (which includes lodging and meals while in Washington), you'll find that NLA could, in fact, afford an office in DC - and a quite nice one at that. I'll make a demand on NLA for the travel expense figure, because I don't think Curt will take me up on the challenge to him to do so, and we'll see what the numbers show.

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 09-26-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dean Schuler:
Mr. Host told us straight up more than once, at board meetings, that a successful association( like the National Tour Association he manages ) has a magazine and it's own trade show, and that was the direction we needed to move in. Sincerely, Dean Schuler<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dean -
I'm not sure what your response means. I don't think it means that NLA should turn over its trade show interests to Host. I think it means that NLA should do its own trade show and publish its own magazine, but I don't think NLA has the membership base to accomplish that. I don't think NLA commands enough clout in the market with its members to dominate a trade show, and it certainly doesn't have enough members to support a magazine. The antiseptic LimoScene is hardly worthwhile spending the money to print and mail, as it is. If it were my decision, I'd ditch LimoScene in exchange for a couple of dedicated pages in LCT or LimoDigest. These pages could be produced on either publishers in-house gear, and even by data connection from NLA headquarters to the publisher's printer, and mailed to NLA members at almost no postage cost. A good printer can put the pages in the magazines that go only to NLA members, and not to others, although there is an argument that letting it go to all subscribers might help non-members appreciate what NLA is doing to a greater extent than they do now. To the argument that not all NLA members are subscribers, the answer is that one or the other or both magazines should be offered AS PART OF an NLA membership. I think it would be silly of NLA to try to publish a magazine at this stage of the game. With two competing magazines in the market, NLA should be able to negotiate an attractive deal with one or the other, including an interesting trade show relationship. Although LCT is the 800-pound gorilla in trade shows at the moment, it doesn't mean that some negotiations with LimoDigest, or others, wouldn't sweeten the pot. Economic reality, however, is that NLA has to eventually bring something to the table since playing two players against one another will only produce short-term gains.

P.S. I'll bet Bobit knows how many of its subscribers are NLA members and I'll bet Tom Mazza can get that figure if he wants to http://limos.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Say, Tom, what is LCT's paid circulation in the last reporting period, and how many NLA members get the mag?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tom mazza:
I think Bob Scott is doing a good job. I think Jim you are being unfair to Bob in that the day he took over he has been in the middle of the 1689 fight. (at the behest of the members) Because Bob has devoted so much time to 1689, general office housekeeping has suffered.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I missed this thought in my first response to Tom's post. I think the 1689 fight has been exceedingly expensive, not only in terms of money but in terms of lost opportunities to pursue other concerns of the industry. I also don't think it was a fight that benefits all NLA members, not even by a long shot. In fact, I think it affects very few NLA members. So when you say "at the behest of the members," let's face up to the fact that it is at the behest of "damn few" members. Perhaps it is a fight that had to be fought by NLA, but there should have been a special assessment for that fight because of the narrow interests involved. There are flaws in 1689 that come from, as near as I can tell, the failure to have a good lawyer looking over the lobbyists' shoulders. These flaws will jump out of the text as soon as a bunch of municipal lawyers around the U.S. gear up to challenge the wording of this version of the legislation. The fight is not over yet. I think this fight is going to break the bank at NLA because of the direct costs and staff time devoted to it. Our company is one of a VERY small minority that will benefit. Do you think NLA members in Columbus, OH, or Minneapolis, or Boise, or Columbia, SC, or anywhere in NC except Charlotte, or anywhere in Florida except Jacksonville and the panhandle, or Augusta, ME, or Wichita, or Dallas (the instances can be multiplied ad infinitum), for example, give a rats **s about 1689? The same can be said of every member that does not operate near a state line where operators can reasonably expect to have traffic move back and forth. Anybody who ever took a civics course knows that trade associations are the fig leaves of private interests, and too often the fig leaf for the interests of only a small part of an industry that the association makes look more universal. I'm not knocking 1689, it helps our company - but I'm willing to belly up to the bar and confess that the advantages to us of this legislation, if it ever is passed, will have come at the expense of a bunch of NLA members who don't have a clue and probably think its an acronym for some kind of kinky group sex.

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 09-26-2000).]

Jim I first have to say I don't think Bob Scott is doing that bad considering he had very little or no knowledge of the Limo industry.
As far as elections, the NLA needs to have more people looking after the smaller companies.
The big companies don't give a rats ass about about them, as I said in other forums they need directors that are not scared to speak up.
The ITLA seems to do well without a management company and also without endorsing trade members, they just have trade members.
I would like to know how much Curt Andrews had to give the NLA to get where he is, and what is his stake at this, where is it you want to go.
As far as LC&T if they are responsible for most of what the NLA takes in dolllar wise, I guess I see their point, they want a say to.
I hear the NLA is not doing the Digest show, why? Maybe someone can share the light.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ragu:
Jim I first have to say I don't think Bob Scott is doing that bad considering he had very little or no knowledge of the Limo industry.
As far as elections, the NLA needs to have more people looking after the smaller companies.
The big companies don't give a rats ass about about them, as I said in other forums they need directors that are not scared to speak up.
The ITLA seems to do well without a management company and also without endorsing trade members, they just have trade members.
I would like to know how much Curt Andrews had to give the NLA to get where he is, and what is his stake at this, where is it you want to go.
As far as LC&T if they are responsible for most of what the NLA takes in dolllar wise, I guess I see their point, they want a say to.
I hear the NLA is not doing the Digest show, why? Maybe someone can share the light.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
******************
Hi Ragu

I guess the main sticking point of not going is the QVM Question. The NLA supports the QVM rating system for safety reasons. The Limo show will be allowing non QVM vehicles to be displayed. I understand that Ford and Cadallac will not be there as well.

I would also like to add that we our a small operator in Oregon. We have a fleet of six vehicles. I started with one Limo in my garage seven years ago. I plan on speaking up for the small operator. I am on the Vendor Liason commitee. I have been helping small operators that have problems with vendors. If you need any assistance, please contact me.
John Sinibaldi
NLA Board Member

[This message has been edited by fivestaroregon (edited 09-26-2000).]

LCT has a paid circulation of 10,765 at my last count. Unlike our competitor, we are audited by the post office so we give away very few copies and thats a legit number

I don't know exactly how many NLA members get the magazine but I would say 900 is a good guess. Less than half of those NLA members attended the show in Vegas of the 3650 tickets. Our magazine is printed at a large printer in Kentucky and we cannot insert anything in certain copies. Gee, I knew I liked Kentucky for some reason

I would be dead set against inserting anything in our magazine. If the NLA does something worthwhile, I cover it but I also have to be extremely sensitive to the vast majority of our readers and show goers who are not NLA members.

The NLA is not a sponsor of the LD Show and, in exchange for our 60 g's, we asked them not to be.

Let me reiterate 1 thing, the LCT show is successful, in my opinion because after 15 years, BOBIT KNOWS HOW TO DO IT. Anybody who thinks, anyone can duplicate that success without a ton of work is mistaken

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tom mazza:
LCT has a paid circulation of 10,765 at my last count. Unlike our competitor, we are audited by the post office so we give away very few copies and thats a legit number

I don't know exactly how many NLA members get the magazine but I would say 900 is a good guess. Less than half of those NLA members attended the show in Vegas of the 3650 tickets. Our magazine is printed at a large printer in Kentucky and we cannot insert anything in certain copies. Gee, I knew I liked Kentucky for some reason

I would be dead set against inserting anything in our magazine. If the NLA does something worthwhile, I cover it but I also have to be extremely sensitive to the vast majority of our readers and show goers who are not NLA members.

The NLA is not a sponsor of the LD Show and, in exchange for our 60 g's, we asked them not to be.

Let me reiterate 1 thing, the LCT show is successful, in my opinion because after 15 years, BOBIT KNOWS HOW TO DO IT. Anybody who thinks, anyone can duplicate that success without a ton of work is mistaken<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this gives everyone a very clear glimpse at where NLA fits into the scheme of things and that Bobit is not going to let the tail wag the dog. The exclusionary requirement for the $60K is not unfair, although it doesn't look like NLA sponsorship of the LimoDigest show makes any difference. This past year we attended LimoDigest, and will also this year, but we did not go to Las Vegas. In Feb. 2000, this was largely due to a personal schedule problem. Geography has more to do with it than anything else, aside from my personal disinterest in Las Vegas as a place for anything. There's litle question that a trade show takes a geat deal of effort and planning, to say nothing of know how, and there are so many dollars available in a limousine company budget for relatively expensive trade shows. I am sure NLA can't swing one on its own, and it doesn't have the industry clout to affect a show much one way or another as a sponsor. LCT might be using a "big" printer in Kentucky, but it's either an "old" big printer, or a technologically-backward "big" printer if it can't put pages in some but not all magazines and identify the recipients. Obviously, that cannot be changed, but it does leave Bobit exposed to the possibility that LimoDigest can do it and might WANT to do it. I hear no one at LimoDigest patronizes limos.com - let's see if they're lurking out there somewhere. Dean???

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jhj:
I think this gives everyone a very clear glimpse at where NLA fits into the scheme of things and that Bobit is not going to let the tail wag the dog. The exclusionary requirement for the $60K is not unfair, although it doesn't look like NLA sponsorship of the LimoDigest show makes any difference. This past year we attended LimoDigest, and will also this year, but we did not go to Las Vegas. In Feb. 2000, this was largely due to a personal schedule problem. Geography has more to do with it than anything else, aside from my personal disinterest in Las Vegas as a place for anything. There's litle question that a trade show takes a geat deal of effort and planning, to say nothing of know how, and there are so many dollars available in a limousine company budget for relatively expensive trade shows. I am sure NLA can't swing one on its own, and it doesn't have the industry clout to affect a show much one way or another as a sponsor. LCT might be using a "big" printer in Kentucky, but it's either an "old" big printer, or a technologically-backward "big" printer if it can't put pages in some but not all magazines and identify the recipients. Obviously, that cannot be changed, but it does leave Bobit exposed to the possibility that LimoDigest can do it and might WANT to do it. I hear no one at LimoDigest patronizes limos.com - let's see if they're lurking out there somewhere. Dean??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Everyone hits the limo forum-it is popular. Part of Digest's success is recognizing that there are well over 20,000 companies in the industry, and have been for the last five years. The industry is going through some major growing pains right now, it will be interesting to see how things work out. Sincerely, Dean Schuler

I hear no one at LimoDigest patronizes limos.com - let's see if they're lurking out there somewhere.

No, let me clarify -- the Limo Digest magazine (outside of Dean) ignores Limos.com from a publication standpoint -- the subscribers don't. There are plenty of LD Subscribers here.

It is quite obvious based on their current issue (technology) that LD continues their non-disclosed boycott of us-- probably because of their underground relationship with Interride and other web related companies.

I guess being the most used, the oldest, the most accepted, the most trafficked limousine, related website holds zero clout with the "Voice of the Limousine Industry".

Perhaps an announcement that Limos.com is being acquired by YAHOO (Nasdaq: YHOO) would be newsworthy enough to get mention in that magazine. (Hint Hint) Probably not.

Anyway, the topic at hand -- people all around the world read the Limo-Forum and know about it. It is the most active Limo related Forum -- just don't expect to have it publicized, acknowledged, or notated in LD. Or, expect anything related to Limos.com published there.

Frustrating as the Founder of this company, however I guess they must protect their own interests, which are many.

I would love to be proved wrong.

Dean- I have counted you as a friend for almost 7 years and I respect your industry acumen.

But, there are not 20,000 limousine companies, period. I personally undertook the "How many limo companies are there project in July and August.

I have written contact with every single PUC office and corporation commission in the country. I personally visited Dun and Bradstreet in NYC and I worked closely with ABC list of Omaha, NE. There may be 20,000 names of limo companies ie A Affordable Limo and Affordable Limo may be counted twice but as far as legitimate limousine operators, there are between 10,300 and 11,000.

FYI, about 850 companies incorporated as a new business in 99.

Dean, I read your stuff in LD but please give us the step by step methodology of how you come up with the 20,000 names. I am willing to send Michael all of my files and you do the same and let LImos.com tell us how many companies they think there are

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tom mazza:
Dean- I have counted you as a friend for almost 7 years and I respect your industry acumen.

But, there are not 20,000 limousine companies, period. I personally undertook the "How many limo companies are there project in July and August.

I have written contact with every single PUC office and corporation commission in the country. I personally visited Dun and Bradstreet in NYC and I worked closely with ABC list of Omaha, NE. There may be 20,000 names of limo companies ie A Affordable Limo and Affordable Limo may be counted twice but as far as legitimate limousine operators, there are between 10,300 and 11,000.

FYI, about 850 companies incorporated as a new business in 99.

Dean, I read your stuff in LD but please give us the step by step methodology of how you come up with the 20,000 names. I am willing to send Michael all of my files and you do the same and let LImos.com tell us how many companies they think there are<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow!!!! This is a bigger shell game than the NLA board! How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Hey, guys, even I know to keep out of this one. Why not take this thread to a new topic - my suggested name, "Now You See It, Now You Don't!" Truly, the Yellow Book just came out in Pittsburgh and I sat down with some other long-time operators and all of our chauffeurs (who have been driving for years and years) and we couldn't figure out how many limousine operators there are in Pittsburgh, and we have less than a hundred to account for. You can count stars in a galaxy easier than limousine companies.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tom mazza:
Dean- I have counted you as a friend for almost 7 years and I respect your industry acumen.

But, there are not 20,000 limousine companies, period. I personally undertook the "How many limo companies are there project in July and August.

I have written contact with every single PUC office and corporation commission in the country. I personally visited Dun and Bradstreet in NYC and I worked closely with ABC list of Omaha, NE. There may be 20,000 names of limo companies ie A Affordable Limo and Affordable Limo may be counted twice but as far as legitimate limousine operators, there are between 10,300 and 11,000.

FYI, about 850 companies incorporated as a new business in 99.

Dean, I read your stuff in LD but please give us the step by step methodology of how you come up with the 20,000 names. I am willing to send Michael all of my files and you do the same and let LImos.com tell us how many companies they think there are<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, OK - I guess I can't resist. This is the sum total of the contribution I can make to this debate. First, you must define your terms. What is a limousine service? Is it a one-man jitney with a 1982 Lincoln, no insurance and a regular vehicle registration? If two or more companies are owned or controlled by the same ownership interest but are separately incorporated and own vehicles in separate names, but operate out of the same garage with the same employees, do you count them as one or two? What if a husband owns one company and the wife owns another in the foregoing example - are they one or two companies? How many companies go out of business in a year, and how many new owners come on line during the same year? How many companies are bought by other companies in a year? What is the date of your count? How do you hold them still long enough to count them - limo companies, not angels? If you guys can agree on what to call a "limousine service" and agree on a methodology, including the moment in time for the count to be effective, you might come up with numbers that are close. Without any such agreement, both of you can be completely right. A limousine service exists only in the eye of the beholder - and only then for a brief moment.
The deviation in a count where the counters do not have an agreement on either the definition of a limousine service or the methodology of the count can easily be 100%. Since you both have all of your records, ley me make a suggestion. Select one city, such as Pittsburgh (I recommend Pittsburgh because our local knowledge can point up errors in count that come solely from not being physically present in the market), or Columbus, or Indianapolis, or any other city you can get your arms around, and both of you report your count for that city. Then, each of you explain how you arrived at your number. This procedure will probably point up the methodological differences, and it may prove what the deviation is likely to be in any such count. It will also save Michael a lot of time.


[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 09-27-2000).]

Michael -
Can you move these last few posts on number of limo companies to a topic "Now You See It, Now You Don't."

Here is how I counted limousine companies: Registered as a limousine company with the state public utility commission or state corporation commission or has a fderal tax ID number that identifies a primary business as "limousine service". If Mr. and Mrs Joe Blow have seperate state or federal ID #'s there are 2 companies. ABC List Co is the largest provider of business list's in the world, they are not off by 50% in their calculation, neither is Dunn and Bradstreet. Furthermore, when your magazine depends on "PAID SUBSCRIBERS" and your show department has tracked limousine company growth for 15 years, we have some data behind our numbers. FYI, The LCT fact book figures are always criticized but the 1000 reponses we get, (I'll let you see completed surveys) is statistically significant

There are less than 11,000 limousine companies, trust me

Please refer comments pertaining to the size of the industry to the appropriate thread -- now found at:
http://www.limousinesonline.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000132.html

Thanks!

John I appreciate your answer, but understand
about the little guys. If you are truley one of them, I will know shortly, because there is only a select few of the directors that my guy's hear from, the rest only call when they want something, I can't elaborate at this time,but after the nominations and elections I might have to. I am sure we will be speaking eventually.
Jims points are good, listen every association messes up, they just don't correct things until their called on it, maybe the point made somewhere on the forum about most NLA members don't know or care or even read the newsletters, they just want to be part of something. I would not take what Jim says personally,but start fixing some errors. Get the right people on the board to help do this, these guys are out there, just ask them.

All take notice that this topic opened three days ago and there has been no meaningful response from NLA directors. The only non-voting director to respond was Curt Andrews, and he didn't know who the NLA auditor was/is! The points raised here were first raised a month ago in other topics, and there was no meaningful response since then either. John Sinibaldi promised to respond, but the "limo old boys" throttled him. Ron Sorci said he needed time to confer with other people to answer the questions, but that's not going to happen either. The "gag" order is apparently still in place, NLA is going to "stonewall," and they think that there aren't enough readers on limos.com to make any difference. I don't think they understand that responding in this forum is the way to avoid spending money in Court in D.C. when their annual meeting and elections get challenged and action is taken to open up the books to the members. This is going to start as soon as the illegal nominating committee sends its illegal "report" to the illegal board with its "hand-picked" candidates for directorships. Maybe the legal fees paid to D.C. lawyers to try to defend this rogue organization will cause the road shows to disappear from the budget - maybe Host Communications will disappear from the budget, too. Maybe these directors need to consult legal counsel to find out what happens when a rogue organization is operating "ultra vires." It means that they are not acting as the corporation and can incur personal liability, including being surcharged for the unlawful expenditure of association funds. There's also the chance that a D.C. judge, when seeing the almost complete lack of compliance with the by-laws, might just appoint a custodian and liquidate the whole shebang. And then there's the possibility of claiming damages from Host Communications, that holds itself out as a company competent to "manage" associations, under whose tutelage the by-laws have been thrown out the window. Host shouldn't forget that members can bring this kind of derivative action.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ragu:
John I appreciate your answer, but understand
about the little guys. If you are truley one of them, I will know shortly, because there is only a select few of the directors that my guy's hear from, the rest only call when they want something, I can't elaborate at this time,but after the nominations and elections I might have to. I am sure we will be speaking eventually.
Jims points are good, listen every association messes up, they just don't correct things until their called on it, maybe the point made somewhere on the forum about most NLA members don't know or care or even read the newsletters, they just want to be part of something. I would not take what Jim says personally,but start fixing some errors. Get the right people on the board to help do this, these guys are out there, just ask them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Would someone tell me what qualifies one to be a "little guy?" I want to know if we're in or out of that club.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ragu:
John I appreciate your answer, but understand
about the little guys. If you are truley one of them, I will know shortly, because there is only a select few of the directors that my guy's hear from, the rest only call when they want something, I can't elaborate at this time,but after the nominations and elections I might have to. I am sure we will be speaking eventually.
Jims points are good, listen every association messes up, they just don't correct things until their called on it, maybe the point made somewhere on the forum about most NLA members don't know or care or even read the newsletters, they just want to be part of something. I would not take what Jim says personally,but start fixing some errors. Get the right people on the board to help do this, these guys are out there, just ask them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ragu

You are welcome to call me anytime. My phone numbers are: 1-800-517-9555 or my cell 1-503-881-9990. Like to hear from you.

John Sinibaldi
NLA Board Member

------------------

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jhj:
All take notice that this topic opened three days ago and there has been no meaningful response from NLA directors. The only non-voting director to respond was Curt Andrews, and he didn't know who the NLA auditor was/is! The points raised here were first raised a month ago in other topics, and there was no meaningful response since then either. John Sinibaldi promised to respond, but the "limo old boys" throttled him. Ron Sorci said he needed time to confer with other people to answer the questions, but that's not going to happen either. The "gag" order is apparently still in place, NLA is going to "stonewall," and they think that there aren't enough readers on limos.com to make any difference. I don't think they understand that responding in this forum is the way to avoid spending money in Court in D.C. when their annual meeting and elections get challenged and action is taken to open up the books to the members. This is going to start as soon as the illegal nominating committee sends its illegal "report" to the illegal board with its "hand-picked" candidates for directorships. Maybe the legal fees paid to D.C. lawyers to try to defend this rogue organization will cause the road shows to disappear from the budget - maybe Host Communications will disappear from the budget, too. Maybe these directors need to consult legal counsel to find out what happens when a rogue organization is operating "ultra vires." It means that they are not acting as the corporation and can incur personal liability, including being surcharged for the unlawful expenditure of association funds. There's also the chance that a D.C. judge, when seeing the almost complete lack of compliance with the by-laws, might just appoint a custodian and liquidate the whole shebang. And then there's the possibility of claiming damages from Host Communications, that holds itself out as a company competent to "manage" associations, under whose tutelage the by-laws have been thrown out the window. Host shouldn't forget that members can bring this kind of derivative action.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

**********
Jim

Get off the High Horse. Your conspicy theory is in your own mind. No one has told me shut up. Your questions deserve a very detail response. I told you in a previous post" Patience my friend, you will have your answers." We have a board meeting coming up this weekend.

I do resent the theat of a law suit. Our courts are already overburden. Your threat of a lawsuit does not serve the NLA membership well. It appears to me, that you are trying to get yourself outhere to make a run for the board or maybe become the new administrator for the NLA. Interesting theory, don't you think? Does anyone out there have any thoughts to share on this?

I was elected to serve. Members call me with concerns or general questions. I also share my communications with other members, example Carolyn concerning the problems in Forida.

The two main areas I will be addressing in
New Orleans will be:
1. Better staffing at home office for returing phone calls, letters, etc.
2. A review of the bylaws in paticular the requirements for running for the board.

We are not a rogue organization. You are always making outragous statements, case in point, The Chicago meeting. You claimed that this meeting was DOA, and that I was a loyal Captain going down with the ship. The meeting in Chicago went very well. The cerfication program will be improved and ready to go. If you want the IOS 9000 that great.

You strke me as having two personalities. In person, you seem to be a nice guy, very passionate about your view, but a least you conducted yourself in a polite manner, but on the web, your seem to be like MR. HYDE, by the way " A great muscical on Broadway" making waco statements that have little or no evidence. I have a feeling you are going to try to sue anyway even with questions being answered. Are you part of a firm that is looking for some money and trying to scare people. I say " Take your best shot DUDE" You are losing support eveytime you go on one of your funks.

John Sinibald
NLA Board Member

Hey Michael, where's that spell checker!!!!

[This message has been edited by fivestaroregon (edited 09-28-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
**********
Jim

Get off the High Horse. Your conspicy theory is in your own mind. No one has told me shut up. Your questions deserve a very detail response. I told you in a previous post" Patience my friend, you will have your answers." We have a board meeting coming up this weekend.

I do resent the theat of a law suit. Our courts are already overburden. Your threat of a lawsuit does not serve the NLA membership well. It appears to me, that you are trying to get yourself outhere to make a run for the board or maybe become the new administrator for the NLA. Interesting theory, don't you think? Does anyone out there have any thoughts to share on this?

I was elected to serve. Members call me with concerns or general questions. I also share my communications with other members, example Carolyn concerning the problems in Forida.

The two main areas I will be addressing in
New Orleans will be
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While it's true that our company logo is Pegasus, the flying horse, I never thought of it as a "high horse," but I guess that's what we do ride here.
Most of the issues raised a month ago do not require "detailed responses." This is a put off, John, to give eveyone time to circle the wagons and come up with a story to avoid the inevitable.
Pardon my hysterical laughter at your suggestion that our courts are overburdened and that's why Host and NLA feel comfortable flaunting the by-laws and the applicable D.C. law. The courts exist specifically for the purpose of dealing with problems like NLA. Let me assure you, the whole thing won't take 30 minutes of a judge's time because there's no defending the indefensible. You simply lay out what is going on, the complete disregard of the by-laws by the board, and any competent judge is going to set aside elections, nullify action taken by a rogue board and rogue officers, and, frankly, faced with the problem of no legally-elected directors and officers, will probably appoint a custodian to take over the affairs of the corporation and direct elections to take place in accordance with the by-laws. This is no threat, John, it's a PROMISE if the illegally-constituted nominating committee sends a "report" to the board with its hand-picked directorship candidates based on imaginary "regions," if the illegal board acts on any such report, and if someone tries to declare directors elected at anything other than a legally-constituted annual meeting of the members, called and convened in accordance with the by-laws.
As far as your other laughable suggestions are concerned, let me assure you I have neither the time nor the inclination to waste my time as a director of NLA. I have heard what goes on at board meetings, and I have adult games to play. As far as executive director is concerned, I think I have made my position clear. There are experienced association executives available in the D.C. area that have years of Hill experience and know how to run an association. This is what NLA needs, and this is what I support. Although I have worked for a trade association and participated in many, I am a firm believer in hiring experienced people, and that doesn't mean me - nor, might I add, does it mean any down-and-out limousine service owner that needs a job.
John, your comments have gone from naieve to silly. Just respond to the questions and issues that have been on the table for the past month and quit whining.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
The two main areas I will be addressing in
New Orleans will be:
1. Better staffing at home office for returing phone calls, letters, etc.
2. A review of the bylaws in paticular the requirements for running for the board.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My Goodness, John, where ever did you get the idea that these things should be dealt with. Hmmmmmm. Let's see, you had a dream one night and just dreamt them up. I don't need "support" to change things that are unlawful. It only takes me, John - just little old me.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We are not a rogue organization. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I defined earlier exactly what I meant by a "rogue" organization - i.e., one that doesn't follow natural or artifical laws, that just wanders around at its own whim. I've made the case based on fact - your unsupported denial is meaningless. If NLA is not a rogue organization, then respond to the questions and issues and PROVE that it is not - that's what will have to happen in D.C. if it isn't done here.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> You are always making outragous statements, case in point, The Chicago meeting. You claimed that this meeting was DOA, and that I was a loyal Captain going down with the ship. The meeting in Chicago went very well. The cerfication program will be improved and ready to go. If you want the IOS 9000 that great. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I've told you before, John, it's ISO 9000, not IOS 9000. And now, John, let's deal with the Chicago meeting. I bided my time and went along with what Ron Sorci and the committee wanted when we left Chicago, and that was to let Sorci put out a summary of the meeting to the members in October. I had no problem with doing so, because it was obvious that this program is not going to survive as a certification program. But now you have suggested something that is not consistent with what went on at the meeting, and I intend to address it here. You're a loose cannon, John, because it wasn't supposed to be this way, but you've opened your trap and tried to give Chicago a "spin" that isn't accurate. The meeting in Chicago went well, alright, because the sentiment was that the CTCP isn't going to exist as a "certification" program - or did you not attend the same meeting I did? Anybody that was or is riding the "certification" ship is going down with it, because it isn't going to exist as such (however, as near as I can tell, the only people riding the certification ship at Chicago, other than you, were Lancer Insurance and HMH, because they have a totally vested interest in such a program). In fact, I have my own private conclusion after the Chicago meeting, which I reiterate, is my OWN conclusion, and whether I'm right or wrong will be proven out in due course. My own private conclusion is that what is left of the "certification" program after Chicago cannot be administered economically by NLA or anyone else (talk to your kin, Greg Casteel, John, he'll confirm it), even as something less than a certification program. This program is going to meet the same fate as any business which tries to develop and sell a product that has insufficient demand and cannot be produced economically. I made the point in Chicago that there were/are good aspects to the program, such as chauffeur training and recognition that NLA can and should institutionalize within NLA, but that's about it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You strke me as having two personalities. In person, you seem to be a nice guy, very passionate about your view, but a least you conducted yourself in a polite manner, but on the web, your seem to be like MR. HYDE, by the way " A great muscical on Broadway" making waco statements that have little or no evidence. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
John, you can call the issues that are raised in this topic in a very dispassionate and deliberate manner "waco [sic] statement that have little or no evidence," (the term being "wacko," by the way - Waco is where they burn people), but calling them that doesn't make them that. Is it a "wacko statement" that there has never been a lawful annual meeting of members of the NLA? The corporate records clearly prove the truth of that and almost every other statement I have made. Call it "wacko statements unsupported by evidence" when you get to court in D.C., John, I don't think a judge is going to agree. It's simply unfortunate that NLA will be spending members' money to try to defend its rogue conduct.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I have a feeling you are going to try to sue anyway even with questions being answered.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
First off, they haven't been answered. Methinks that this statement foretells what the answers are going to be - "well, shucks, Jim, everyone makes mistakes - after all, we're just a bunch of guys volunteering our time with no pay trying to improve the industry . . .." We've heard it all here before, John. If NLA is complying with the by-laws, it wouldn't take five minutes to shoot down all these "wacko statements without evidence."

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Are you part of a firm that is looking for some money and trying to scare people. I say " Take your best shot DUDE" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
John, you are NLA's worst enemy - you've finally pushed the button. I SAY, "You're on, Baby." Let's get to a D.C. judge and see who will have egg on whose face. Formal demand was made today on NLA for documents which will be the basis of a suit in D.C. to enjoin the unlawful operation of NLA and request that a custodian be appointed for the corporation to supervise its affairs until directors can be "legally" elected. Tom Mazza, you'll get a copy of this suit when filed - it'll be hard not to report the claims that will be made as news. I guess this will now make you happy, John - you'll be able to prove how wrong I am. John, you went way off the reservation and triggered this action much, much sooner than it would have otherwise come. Take this news to your directors' meeting this weekend. Your "take your best shot, dude" arrogance is exactly what's wrong with you and the other arrogant directors who think you can ignore the by-laws and the members.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> You are losing support everytime you go on one of your funks. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
John, I've never looked or asked for "support." I don't need "support" for what is going to be my contribution to cleaning out the rat's nest at NLA.


[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 09-28-2000).]

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 09-28-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jhj:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
The two main areas I will be addressing in
New Orleans will be:
1. Better staffing at home office for returing phone calls, letters, etc.
2. A review of the bylaws in paticular the requirements for running for the board.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My Goodness, John, where ever did you get the idea that these things should be dealt with. Hmmmmmm. Let's see, you had a dream one night and just dreamt them up. I don't need "support" to change things that are unlawful. It only takes me, John - just little old me.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We are not a rogue organization. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I defined earlier exactly what I meant by a "rogue" organization - i.e., one that doesn't follow natural or artifical laws, that just wanders around at its own whim. I've made the case based on fact - your unsupported denial is meaningless. If NLA is not a rogue organization, then respond to the questions and issues and PROVE that it is not - that's what will have to happen in D.C. if it isn't done here.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> You are always making outragous statements, case in point, The Chicago meeting. You claimed that this meeting was DOA, and that I was a loyal Captain going down with the ship. The meeting in Chicago went very well. The cerfication program will be improved and ready to go. If you want the IOS 9000 that great. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I've told you before, John, it's ISO 9000, not IOS 9000. And now, John, let's deal with the Chicago meeting. I bided my time and went along with what Ron Sorci and the committee wanted when we left Chicago, and that was to let Sorci put out a summary of the meeting to the members in October. I had no problem with doing so, because it was obvious that this program is not going to survive as a certification program. But now you have suggested something that is not consistent with what went on at the meeting, and I intend to address it here. You're a loose cannon, John, because it wasn't supposed to be this way, but you've opened your trap and tried to give Chicago a "spin" that isn't accurate. The meeting in Chicago went well, alright, because the sentiment was that the CTCP isn't going to exist as a "certification" program - or did you not attend the same meeting I did? Anybody that was or is riding the "certification" ship is going down with it, because it isn't going to exist as such (however, as near as I can tell, the only people riding the certification ship at Chicago, other than you, were Lancer Insurance and HMH, because they have a totally vested interest in such a program). In fact, I have my own private conclusion after the Chicago meeting, which I reiterate, is my OWN conclusion, and whether I'm right or wrong will be proven out in due course. My own private conclusion is that what is left of the "certification" program after Chicago cannot be administered economically by NLA or anyone else (talk to your kin, Greg Casteel, John, he'll confirm it), even as something less than a certification program. This program is going to meet the same fate as any business which tries to develop and sell a product that has insufficient demand and cannot be produced economically. I made the point in Chicago that there were/are good aspects to the program, such as chauffeur training and recognition that NLA can and should institutionalize within NLA, but that's about it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You strke me as having two personalities. In person, you seem to be a nice guy, very passionate about your view, but a least you conducted yourself in a polite manner, but on the web, your seem to be like MR. HYDE, by the way " A great muscical on Broadway" making waco statements that have little or no evidence. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
John, you can call the issues that are raised in this topic in a very dispassionate and deliberate manner "waco [sic] statement that have little or no evidence," (the term being "wacko," by the way - Waco is where they burn people), but calling them that doesn't make them that. Is it a "wacko statement" that there has never been a lawful annual meeting of members of the NLA? The corporate records clearly prove the truth of that and almost every other statement I have made. Call it "wacko statements unsupported by evidence" when you get to court in D.C., John, I don't think a judge is going to agree. It's simply unfortunate that NLA will be spending members' money to try to defend its rogue conduct.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I have a feeling you are going to try to sue anyway even with questions being answered.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
First off, they haven't been answered. Methinks that this statement foretells what the answers are going to be - "well, shucks, Jim, everyone makes mistakes - after all, we're just a bunch of guys volunteering our time with no pay trying to improve the industry . . .." We've heard it all here before, John. If NLA is complying with the by-laws, it wouldn't take five minutes to shoot down all these "wacko statements without evidence."

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Are you part of a firm that is looking for some money and trying to scare people. I say " Take your best shot DUDE" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
John, you are NLA's worst enemy - you've finally pushed the button. I SAY, "You're on, Baby." Let's get to a D.C. judge and see who will have egg on whose face. Formal demand was made today on NLA for documents which will be the basis of a suit in D.C. to enjoin the unlawful operation of NLA and request that a custodian be appointed for the corporation to supervise its affairs until directors can be "legally" elected. Tom Mazza, you'll get a copy of this suit when filed - it'll be hard not to report the claims that will be made as news. I guess this will now make you happy, John - you'll be able to prove how wrong I am. John, you went way off the reservation and triggered this action much, much sooner than it would have otherwise come. Take this news to your directors' meeting this weekend. Your "take your best shot, dude" arrogance is exactly what's wrong with you and the other arrogant directors who think you can ignore the by-laws and the members.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> You are losing support everytime you go on one of your funks. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
John, I've never looked or asked for "support." I don't need "support" for what is going to be my contribution to cleaning out the rat's nest at NLA.


[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 09-28-2000).]

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 09-28-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

********

Jim

"You are indeed a legend in your own mind"
I am sure we all know what end of the horse you are.Rats nest, maybe you think like a rat. The meeting did go well. The certfication program will survive. Don't know what meeting you were at, but it wasn't the "SOS9000" ha ha. Why it so hard for you to tell the truth? By the way DUDE, You didn't answer my question about your law firm sueing the NLA.The term Dude is much more polite than the word "Turkey" you used on Ron Sorci.He did a great job in running that meeting. You sure as hell didn't contribute a whole lot. Also the word DUDE is best describe in the film"Easy Rider" check out the video.
JohnSinibaldi
NLA Board Member

------------------


[This message has been edited by fivestaroregon (edited 09-28-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
********
"You are indeed a legend in your own mind" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, John you will go down as a legend in being the one person at NLA that triggered what is going to happen next. You also are the personification of what's wrong with nominating NLA directors by "region," i.e., when there's nobody with credentials they still have to find someone like you to stick on the board. If it isn't clear to people on this board what's going on now, it never will be. This topic was started and I made it clear that it was supposed to be a deliberative discussion of the problems at NLA, to which anyone, including especially NLA directors could respond. I specifically said there would be no ad hominem attacks, and there weren't, until this lightweight showed up again. Unfortunately, I have never suffered fools very well. Shortly, NLA is going be forced to bring in their lawyers and look at the very things I've been saying and respond to the suit in Washington, D.C., and the cost is going to be phenomenal to NLA. This is an organization that has a budget of less than $500,000, and they could easily spend half or more of that dealing with this problem - good work, Johnny! It should be clear that no NLA director is going to respond to the issues that have been floating around here for more than a month, and someone sent this flack out to pretend that he's some kind of serious representative of NLA.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I am sure we all know what end of the horse you are.Rats nest, maybe you think like a rat.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Cute, Johnny. My God, I don't think I've heard this kind of petulence since I was in third grade. I'm not interested in further exchanges with an ambitious semi-literate.

At Johnny-Boy's challenge to take my best shot, the following letter was faxed and mailed to NLA headquarters today, and to the officers of NLA at their respective places of business.


September 28, 2000

BY FACSIMILE TRANSMISSION/ORIGINAL BY FIRST CLASS MAIL

Robert Scott, Executive Director
National Limousine Association
2365 Harrodsburg Road, Suite A325
Lexington, KY 40504

Dear Mr. Scott:

This request is being made on behalf of Pegasus Transportation Holdings, Inc., t/d/b/a Pegasus Chauffeured Motor Cars, as a Regular Active Member of the National Limousine Association, and pursuant to applicable provisions of the laws of the District of Columbia relating to non-profit corporations.

Please forward to the attention of the undersigned the following documents:

1. Audited financial statements for the National Limousine Association for the fiscal years ending December 31, 1999, 1998, 1996 and 1995, and the "financial updates" provided by the Treasurer to the Board of Directors before each meeting in 2000 as required by Article 9, Section D of the by-laws of the National Limousine Association.
2. Minutes of all meetings of the Board of Directors of the National Limousine Association, including, without limitation, consents or actions taken in lieu of meetings by consent, minutes or notes of informal meetings, and meetings conducted telephonically or otherwise, during the calendar years 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999 and 2000.
3. Notices and minutes of all annual and/or special meetings of the members of the National Limousine Association which occurred at any time during the calendar years 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999 and 2000.
4. Copies of each contract, and any and all amendments, supplements, changes or modifications thereto, relating to the management of the National Limousine Association by Host Communciations, Inc. or any other person, firm, entity or corporation, including their predecessors and successors and/or assigns, from inception of the corporation to present.
5. That portion of the journals and or general ledger of the National Limousine Association which contains any and all entries relating to expenses incurred by said association in connection with H.B. 1689 or any prior version thereof, including, without limitation, fees paid to lobbyists, legal counsel, consultants, and all travel, lodging and entertainment expenses.

By original copies of this letter, this request is also being directed to the principal officers of the National Limousine Association.

Thank you for your prompt attention to this request.

Yours very truly,

/s/ James H. Joseph

James H. Joseph, Managing Director

JHJ:bsj

Copies: Darryl W. Norman, President
Cheryl Berkman, Secretary
Cory Rozen, Treasurer


[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 09-28-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
********

Jim

"You are indeed a legend in your own mind"
I am sure we all know what end of the horse you are.Rats nest, maybe you think like a rat. The meeting did go well. The certfication program will survive. Don't know what meeting you were at, but it wasn't the "SOS9000" ha ha. Why it so hard for you to tell the truth? By the way DUDE, You didn't answer my question about your law firm sueing the NLA.The term Dude is much more polite than the word "Turkey" you used on Ron Sorci.He did a great job in running that meeting. You sure as hell didn't contribute a whole lot. Also the word DUDE is best describe in the film"Easy Rider" check out the video.
JohnSinibaldi
NLA Board Member
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

John:
Why have you suddenly gone into attack mode?

The original issues/items presented at the start of this forum by JHJ are valid and require answers. Stonewalling by the NLA accomplishes nothing. I believe some questions could have been put to bed with a simple answer stating that an error was made and it is being corrected. (For example:
nominating committee put back to 5 instead of 7 or whatever number if my numbers are wrong). Other items might have taken longer and required much more involved discussion. The forum was in place to start and continue this dialogue.

Calling names and starting this tirade all over again doesn't accomplish a thing. Things are wrong at the NLA, issues exist. Attempting to push JHJ's buttons will not accomplish what you apparently want - to make him go away. In reading these forums, it is quite obvious he is in for the long haul.

This forum was started I believe in a constructive manner - don't blow it and start a war where no one wins - especially the members and the limousine industry.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jhj:
At Johnny-Boy's challenge to take my best shot, the following letter was faxed and mailed to NLA headquarters today, and to the officers of NLA at their respective places of business.


September 28, 2000

BY FACSIMILE TRANSMISSION/ORIGINAL BY FIRST CLASS MAIL

Robert Scott, Executive Director
National Limousine Association
2365 Harrodsburg Road, Suite A325
Lexington, KY 40504

Dear Mr. Scott:

This request is being made on behalf of Pegasus Transportation Holdings, Inc., t/d/b/a Pegasus Chauffeured Motor Cars, as a Regular Active Member of the National Limousine Association, and pursuant to applicable provisions of the laws of the District of Columbia relating to non-profit corporations.

Please forward to the attention of the undersigned the following documents:

1. Audited financial statements for the National Limousine Association for the fiscal years ending December 31, 1999, 1998, 1996 and 1995, and the "financial updates" provided by the Treasurer to the Board of Directors before each meeting in 2000 as required by Article 9, Section D of the by-laws of the National Limousine Association.
2. Minutes of all meetings of the Board of Directors of the National Limousine Association, including, without limitation, consents or actions taken in lieu of meetings by consent, minutes or notes of informal meetings, and meetings conducted telephonically or otherwise, during the calendar years 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999 and 2000.
3. Notices and minutes of all annual and/or special meetings of the members of the National Limousine Association which occurred at any time during the calendar years 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999 and 2000.
4. Copies of each contract, and any and all amendments, supplements, changes or modifications thereto, relating to the management of the National Limousine Association by Host Communciations, Inc. or any other person, firm, entity or corporation, including their predecessors and successors and/or assigns, from inception of the corporation to present.
5. That portion of the journals and or general ledger of the National Limousine Association which contains any and all entries relating to expenses incurred by said association in connection with H.B. 1689 or any prior version thereof, including, without limitation, fees paid to lobbyists, legal counsel, consultants, and all travel, lodging and entertainment expenses.

By original copies of this letter, this request is also being directed to the principal officers of the National Limousine Association.

Thank you for your prompt attention to this request.

Yours very truly,

/s/ James H. Joseph

James H. Joseph, Managing Director

JHJ:bsj

Copies: Darryl W. Norman, President
Cheryl Berkman, Secretary
Cory Rozen, Treasurer


[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 09-28-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Irv:
John:
Why have you suddenly gone into attack mode?

The original issues/items presented at the start of this forum by JHJ are valid and require answers. Stonewalling by the NLA accomplishes nothing. I believe some questions could have been put to bed with a simple answer stating that an error was made and it is being corrected. (For example:
nominating committee put back to 5 instead of 7 or whatever number if my numbers are wrong). Other items might have taken longer and required much more involved discussion. The forum was in place to start and continue this dialogue.

Calling names and starting this tirade all over again doesn't accomplish a thing. Things are wrong at the NLA, issues exist. Attempting to push JHJ's buttons will not accomplish what you apparently want - to make him go away. In reading these forums, it is quite obvious he is in for the long haul.

This forum was started I believe in a constructive manner - don't blow it and start a war where no one wins - especially the members and the limousine industry.

Hi Irv

Thanks for the note. These issues will be addressed. I am sick & tired of reading unfounded charges goingon under the table. By pushing his buttons he shows what he is.
This is the first time I have seen your posts. You can contact me anytime by e-mail, phone or on this forum. I will try to stick to the issues by Jim sending his letter request, I just moved his time table up a few notches.
Thanks
John Sinibaldi
NLA Board Member


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

------------------

**[QUOTE]Originally posted by Irv:
[B] John:
Why have you suddenly gone into attack mode?

The original issues/items presented at the start of this forum by JHJ are valid and require answers. Stonewalling by the NLA accomplishes nothing. I believe some questions could have been put to bed with a simple answer stating that an error was made and it is being corrected. (For example:
nominating committee put back to 5 instead of 7 or whatever number if my numbers are wrong). Other items might have taken longer and required much more involved discussion. The forum was in place to start and continue this dialogue.

Calling names and starting this tirade all over again doesn't accomplish a thing. Things are wrong at the NLA, issues exist. Attempting to push JHJ's buttons will not accomplish what you apparently want - to make him go away. In reading these forums, it is quite obvious he is in for the long haul.

This forum was started I believe in a constructive manner - don't blow it and start a war where no one wins - especially the members and the limousine industry.

Irv
One more thought. I feel the nomination process needs to change and it will addressed at the board meeting.

John

------------------

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jhj:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
********
"You are indeed a legend in your own mind" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, John you will go down as a legend in being the one person at NLA that triggered what is going to happen next. You also are the personification of what's wrong with nominating NLA directors by "region," i.e., when there's nobody with credentials they still have to find someone like you to stick on the board. If it isn't clear to people on this board what's going on now, it never will be. This topic was started and I made it clear that it was supposed to be a deliberative discussion of the problems at NLA, to which anyone, including especially NLA directors could respond. I specifically said there would be no ad hominem attacks, and there weren't, until this lightweight showed up again. Unfortunately, I have never suffered fools very well. Shortly, NLA is going be forced to bring in their lawyers and look at the very things I've been saying and respond to the suit in Washington, D.C., and the cost is going to be phenomenal to NLA. This is an organization that has a budget of less than $500,000, and they could easily spend half or more of that dealing with this problem - good work, Johnny! It should be clear that no NLA director is going to respond to the issues that have been floating around here for more than a month, and someone sent this flack out to pretend that he's some kind of serious representative of NLA.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I am sure we all know what end of the horse you are.Rats nest, maybe you think like a rat.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Cute, Johnny. My God, I don't think I've heard this kind of petulence since I was in third grade. I'm not interested in further exchanges with an ambitious semi-literate.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Cute Jime. Did you learn that in first year of law school?
John

------------------

Jim sorry sometimes I use that phrase to loosely, What I mean by little guys is simply the smaller companies, maybe under 20-25 cars or anybody willing to help even the 2-3 car guys. Companies like the Carey's, Dav El's, B-Coaches they don't give a rats a*s about what happens to anybody else, ask one of those boy's to name 2 companies in any city other then their own affiliates. Then there is some of the bigger guys that do really care about all in the industry. I feel guys like Cirruzzo, Seelinger take more of an interest in whats happening. I guess to me its not so much the size of the company its more of the genuine care of people in the industry. I am not sure of the size of these peoples companies but the Gary Tonkins, Don Kinseys, Jon Chester's and yes the Carolyn Nelsons really do care. See I think as I you care to but we go about things a little different. Maybe the NLA can't be fixed but maybe they can, I'm just not sure by making them empty the tin box in court is the answer then again maybe we need to start over. I happen to belong to the ITLA and the U S motorcoach association also, the ITLA runs well and does alot, the USMC really does nothing. I know the points you make is true, I just don't think they know how to answer you.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ragu:
Maybe the NLA can't be fixed but maybe they can, I'm just not sure by making them empty the tin box in court is the answer then again maybe we need to start over. I happen to belong to the ITLA and the U S motorcoach association also, the ITLA runs well and does alot, the USMC really does nothing. I know the points you make is true, I just don't think they know how to answer you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I've been in the legal game for a hair over 30 years now, and corporate and business law is where I spend my time. I've been down this road in many, many cases where shareholders of corporations get into a spat and the shareholders in control try not to provide any information to the other shareholders. The law is clear and a court will order the information to be provided, but frequently you have to go to court to do that. And in smaller companies frequently things are run like a family partnership and none of the Is get dotted or the Ts crossed, but eventually that has to happen, and, if not, a court will liquidate the company that is not running like a company. I have to say, however, in all of my career I've never seen anything as awfully run as NLA insofar as minding their by-laws and the law are concerned, and I've never run into management, directors and officers who are so arrogant that they think they can get away with it. I've given them plenty of notice to clean up their act, but they are either stupid or arrogant, or both. But shortly the lawyers will get involved and when they see what NLA has been doing their reaction will be simialr to mine and they will tell the board and Host Communications just how much trouble they're in. Like you suggest, I have been getting calls that suggest what I am beginning to think - that this could be the end of the NLA and that the directors are going to stonewall and take the association down with them. I think they might be between a rock and a hard place - i.e., if they don't give up the records they're going to be ordered to do so by a court, and if and when they do those papers might just open up a Pandora's box that is going to destroy personal reputations and the NLA as well. If that's how we have to start over, so be it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ragu:
Jim sorry sometimes I use that phrase to loosely, What I mean by little guys is simply the smaller companies, maybe under 20-25 cars or anybody willing to help even the 2-3 car guys. Companies like the Carey's, Dav El's, B-Coaches they don't give a rats a*s about what happens to anybody else, ask one of those boy's to name 2 companies in any city other then their own affiliates. Then there is some of the bigger guys that do really care about all in the industry. I feel guys like Cirruzzo, Seelinger take more of an interest in whats happening. I guess to me its not so much the size of the company its more of the genuine care of people in the industry. I am not sure of the size of these peoples companies but the Gary Tonkins, Don Kinseys, Jon Chester's and yes the Carolyn Nelsons really do care. See I think as I you care to but we go about things a little different. Maybe the NLA can't be fixed but maybe they can, I'm just not sure by making them empty the tin box in court is the answer then again maybe we need to start over. I happen to belong to the ITLA and the U S motorcoach association also, the ITLA runs well and does alot, the USMC really does nothing. I know the points you make is true, I just don't think they know how to answer you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Ragu

Even thou I provide service for Carey. My company is small. We have a fleet of seven vehicles. I am commited to the small operator
and also getting a spell checker on this forum. Hard to believe you can believe all the bunk for Jim. Please call Carolyn.

Now Jime boy, Your last post "End of the NLA" "Reputations destroyed" "Board members in trouble with Host" Now, you state I am not qualify to be on the board. Please provide concrete examples, I will be happy to resign if the jury deceides I am not qualified. Believe me, I have enough to do running my own company. However, I will not allow you to make false statements. Them fighting words JIMME. You may have hijacked the LIMO-Forum but I am not going to allow you to make false statements about me or other members that I have the honor of working with. Do you really manage a company?

Must be slow, to spend nearly all day glued to the screen. All of your insults, false statements have not provided any solutions. I have nothing to hide as a board member, my phone number is available to anyone. The records will prove you wrong, just like when I gave you the LLC filing in Chicago. Why don't you use that for your fig leaf.

John

------------------

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
The records will prove you wrong, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Then why don't you respond to the issues, and provide the documents that others have asked for and never received, and that I have made formal demand for today. Odds are 100% that we have to go to court next week to get them. Beyond that, Johnny, I don't want to get into a battle of wits with an unarmed man. Flail on.

- Michael, Johnny wants a grammar checker, too.

Jim, If you file a lawsuit, I'll decide if its newsworthy.

It's odd to me that someone can spend 2 hours on a limo forum but same person does not have time to serve as a director.

I was at the Chicago meeting and I'll tell you Jim your cojones are much smaller when there is no computer around. You didn't take ANYBODY aside ie Darryl Norman, Dave Seelinger etc and tell them anything. When I have something to say to someone, I say it, you don't, you post mind numbing diatribe's

I think you raise some legitimate issues, in fact I am writing a column titled "NLA Nominating Committee a Bad Idea" for December mag.

Jim, you are dead wrong when you talk about the NLA silencing anybody, these are busy people who don't have the time or energy to muzzle someone. Bob Bellagamba and Barbara Pastelak are very close to me. In fact I work with Barbara on the NLA Education Committee. TWO EXTREMELY BRIGHT PEOPLE WHO HAVE HELPED OPERATORS OF ALL SIZES TREMENDOUSLY.

JIM, HERE IS AN OFFER, Write a letter to the editor to LCT that is 600 words or less and if it raises good points, I'll print it in December.

I have called and e-mailed the NLA in regards to to questions that I have. Guess what? Not one person has responded. Since this forum has some experienced people from the industry in it, maybe I can ask here. This coming up week on Tuesday in Michigan the State of Michigan will be voting on a bill that will force all limousine operators to obtain a separate license in order to do business in the city of Detroit. Three other cities are watching to see if it passes so that they can do the same. I'm a small operator and if this passes I will be dead in the water! The Taxi cab Association seems to be the one supporting the bill. We plan on protesting the bill by inviting companies all over the state to at least bring one limo from their companies to parade them in front of the capital in opposing the bill. I've e-mailed the NLA so I could get ideas on how we as a local association can defeat this bill and no answer. Also do other people from around the states have any sample speeches used that one could use in such a case in front of the House. I'm sure the state of Florida is dealing with a similar issue. I feel this is the type of IMPORTANT issues we need to help eachother with as an industry instead of fighting back and forth with who's right on how many companies there are. Also last year I could not attend the industry show since I'm such a small company and my expenses do not alow me to go. The NLA at a road show in Detroit which was to simply recruit members told me that the NLA gives out "scholarships" to companies who can not afford to go the show. Well I attempted to contact the NLA to find out the process of getting such a thing. Guess what ignored once again. I've been a member of the NLA for a year now and I'm starting to feel used and betrayed by the NLA because I feel an association nsuch as the NLA should be there as a guide for us in the industry so that we can all be succesful and prosper.

[This message has been edited by nkokas (edited 09-29-2000).]

In this corner the challenger James The Flying Horseman Jooooseph.

Now entering the ring, the current NLA Champion, John you'll be seeing Five Stars Sinibaldiiii.

Ladies and Gentleman Lets Get Ready to Rummmballlll.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paulie Walnuts:
In this corner the challenger James The Flying Horseman Jooooseph.

Now entering the ring, the current NLA Champion, John you'll be seeing Five Stars Sinibaldiiii.

Ladies and Gentleman Lets Get Ready to Rummmballlll.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Paulie

What are the odds in Vegas? Thanks for the lite moment. Sometimes its best to look in the mirror and laugh.
Thanks
John Sinibaldi
NLA Board Member

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[This message has been edited by fivestaroregon (edited 09-29-2000).]

[This message has been edited by fivestaroregon (edited 09-29-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tom mazza:
Jim, If you file a lawsuit, I'll decide if its newsworthy.

It's odd to me that someone can spend 2 hours on a limo forum but same person does not have time to serve as a director.

I was at the Chicago meeting and I'll tell you Jim your cojones are much smaller when there is no computer around. You didn't take ANYBODY aside ie Darryl Norman, Dave Seelinger etc and tell them anything. When I have something to say to someone, I say it, you don't, you post mind numbing diatribe's

I think you raise some legitimate issues, in fact I am writing a column titled "NLA Nominating Committee a Bad Idea" for December mag.

Jim, you are dead wrong when you talk about the NLA silencing anybody, these are busy people who don't have the time or energy to muzzle someone. Bob Bellagamba and Barbara Pastelak are very close to me. In fact I work with Barbara on the NLA Education Committee. TWO EXTREMELY BRIGHT PEOPLE WHO HAVE HELPED OPERATORS OF ALL SIZES TREMENDOUSLY.

JIM, HERE IS AN OFFER, Write a letter to the editor to LCT that is 600 words or less and if it raises good points, I'll print it in December.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tom -
I'm not sure what your "two hours" reference is to, unless you're referring to the 1-1/2 hours from first to last post last Sunday night at the beginning of this topic. True, I spent more than the usual amount of time to set up this topic because I wanted to initiate serious deliberation of the issues raised. As to not having time to be an NLA director, please pay attention to what I have said for the past two months at various points in time: (1) I don't suffer fools very well; (2) I'm not even eligible to be an NLA director; (3) I don't WANT to be an NLA director; and (4) Not wanting to be an NLA director has nothing to do with having the time, it has to do with "wasting" my time. There are some good people who want to or are willing to be NLA directors if the chokehold on access to the board is removed - that's my immediate objective. In other words, I only want to facilitate internal democracy in NLA. Once fresh air blows in, everything else will take care of itself.

Tom, I'm disappointed in your comments about the size of my cajones and about Chicago because it was a cheap shot, and you know it. Chicago was for the CTCP, and nothing else. It was neither the time nor the place to take anyone aside and chastise them about the manner in which they observe the NLA by-laws or the laws generally. If I had done that, it would have been rude and unseemly, and you would have been one of the first to day so. Besides, I represented on this forum that I was not going to carry these issues to Chicago, and I didn't. I said I knew how to be effective when the opportunity arose, and had I done what you suggest someone with big cajones would have done I would not have been effective. I might have had big cajones in your book, but a pea-sized brain otherwise. No one ever has to wonder where I'm coming from, Tom, because I'll tell you. All anyone has to do is listen. I'll deal face to face with any director of NLA, whether on this forum, or anywhere else - but so far no one wants to meet the issues head-on. I haven't been around long enough for you or anyone else to get a handle on how I'll handle a face-to-face discussion of these issues, but I think you should have some idea that I'm not going to come off second best. Chicago had nothing to do with the size of my cajones, it had to do with my judgment and intelligence, and I think I had plenty to say in Chicago, even though Darryl Norman tried to throttle discussion at our table because he didin't like the direction.

Tom, as to NLA directors being "gagged," there seems to be credible evidence that there is such a document, and directors have told me that the word spread among the directors is not to respond to any of the issues in these forums, because not all of the NLA directors agree with that approach. This is not a "conspiracy theory" as you've tried to tag it - but it is what a conspiracy is defined to be, i.e., concerted action by two or more persons toward a common end. The NLA directors have, by conferring with one another, agreed not to respond to the issues in this forum - that's concerted action by any view of it.

I'm glad to see that you are interested in at least one of the issues I have been raising here and plan to do a column on it. By the way, I have never taken a position as extreme as yours that NLA should lose the nominating committee. Many organizations have such bodies, but they should only get involved in screening persons to be nominated to meet the basic qualifications and to roust out good people to run for NLA director. BUT I have never seen a non-profit that does not have another avenue to nominate director candidates, such as by petition of the members. As far as I'm concerned, there should be an avenue by which a candidate can get on the ballot by presenting a petition to the nominating committee with the signatures of, say, 25 NLA members. This, along with giving the nominating committee a clear directive to stick to basic qualifications and keep out of "politics," will eliminate the chokehold that now exists.

As to your offer of printing a letter to the editor in the December issue, please advise me as to the editorial deadline for doing so because by then there will have been a lot of water over the dam in court and what I might say now is different than what I might say by such a deadline. In other words, this whole issue is going to migrate substantially in the next month or two.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
[B] Jim

I think Tom is referring to the dinner meeting you attended the night before the Chicago meeting. My understanding, you were invited to the dinner meeting by either Tom or by Ron Sorci. I wish I could have gone, but I was still in the air coming to Chicago.

The comment by Tom is not a cheap shot, I only wished some of the comments you have posted to me were made to my face in a room full of other Limousine peers. Maybe the computer is your territory, but I like an open forum with face to face dialog. As for your law suit, I think the "Freedom of Information Act", will achieve the results you are looking for. Like I have said many times, "There is nothing to hide".
John Sinibaldi
NLA Board Member

/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

------------------

Johnny -
You aren't even on the same page. The dinner the night before the Chicago meeting was arranged by Joe Cirruzzo. I had been invited to dinner by Joe and others weeks before the meeting. Joe was part of the ISO 9000 meeting during the afternoon. We met Tom Mazza in the bar at the hotel around 6:00 and he was invited to come to dinner. When we were in front of the hotel waiting for the van to go to dinner, Ron Sorci was talking with part of the group and Joe invited him to dinner also. Your understanding is wrong, as usual. Also, Joe Cirruzzo and I had an understanding that it would not be useful to discuss broader matters in Chicago, and so it wasn't. Why didn't you invite me to your board meeting in New Orleans this weekend and we could have done all of this face-to-face? Let's not play silly games, Johnny. Any director of NLA could have responded in the past two months to any of the issues raised, including you, but you know as well as I do that any response would only have to admit everything I have been saying for there is no defense to the indefensible. By the way, I'll be in Atlantic City at the LimoDigest show. Any directors who want to meet face-to-face there are welcome to do so, although by then there may be problems relating to speaking directly to NLA directors since by then the NLA will be represented by legal counsel and, if so, I will not be able to speak directly to any such lawyer's clients.
As for the Freedom of Information Act, you must live in a banana tree, Johnny, although you have part of it right. The FOI was enacted in the 1960s as a device to force government functionaries to give up documents that they typically hide from the public (just like NLA). It did not create a right to information, it established a procedure to enforce the right. It does not apply to private organizations, goofus. As in the case of government, NLA members have a right to information concerning the functioning of the corporation, and just like government, NLA stonewalls giving it out. The procedure for shareholders (of for-profit corporations) and members (of non-profits) to get information to which they are entitled is to file an action in the jurisdiction where the corporation or association is organized and get a court order directing the entity to surrender the information. Typically, the court will award costs and counsel fees for having to go to court to get it. If the documets I requested this week are not forthcoming in a week to 10 days, that is the procedure that will be used. AFTER the information is obtained, an action will be filed to enjoin NLA officers and directors, and Host Communications, from violating the by-laws and the D.C. law, and compelling compliance with the by-laws. The same action will seek a custodian or receiver to take charge of NLA's affairs until a board can be legally elected by the members in accordance with the by-laws. So, there are two aspects of proceedings in D.C. - the first to get documents that NLA is required to provide to members, and the second is to obtain full compliance with the by-laws and the laws of the District of Columbia.
I might add, if you say "there is nothing to hide," then why is it being hidden. Members of NLA have been trying to get the documents I requested for months, and in some cases years. Bob Scott tells them, "No problem," but the documents are never forthcoming, just like everything else that disappears into the NLA "black hole" and from which nothing escapes. The members have a right to documentation to see what income NLA gets other than from members (i.e., from vendors, etc.), how it spends its money, how much Host is getting paid, what expenses are being incurred, and whether there is proper authority for these financial transactions. Members also have a right to know what goes on in NLA directors' meetings, and if there has ever been a legally convened meeting of the members since 1987 when NLA is formed. The members also have a right to elect whomever they want to vote for to be directors, not just those insiders nominated by the Nominating Committee and they have a right to elect directors from the entire membership, not just from "regions" where you end up putting flacks on the board just to keep qualified people off.


[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 09-30-2000).]

For anbody who hasn't figured out what some of this topic is all about, remember that NLA is a non-profit corporation incorporated under the laws of the District of Columbia, even though its office is in Kentucky. The District of Columbia Code, as it relates to non-profit corporations, at Section 29-526, provides as follows: "Each corporation shall keep correct and complete books and records of account and shall keep minutes of the proceedings of its members, board of directors, and committees having any of the authority of the board of directors; and shall keep at its registered office or principal office in the District of Columbia a record of the names and addresses of its members entitled to vote. All books and records of a corporation may be inspected by any member having voting rights, or his agent or attorney, for any proper purpose at any reasonable time."
Demand was made this week upon NLA, pursuant to this provision of the D.C. Code, to obtain copies of minutes, records and books of account. If not forthcoming, as stated above, we will enforce this provision of the Code.
There is also a judicial interpretation of a provision of the D.C. Code that may make contracting out to Host Communciations the management of NLA a breach by the directors of their fiduciary duties. This one is complicated, and I want to keep it in reserve until we see the management contracts that turned over day-to-day management of NLA to Host Communications.
Well, now we have LCT that is going to have a column by Tom Mazza in December on the NLA Nominating Committee, and an offer to me to print a 600-word letter. What's on the table from LimoDigest? MMMmmmmmmmm!!! Take a whiff!!!! Fresh air is starting to infiltrate through the cracks at NLA. Before long this little bit of fresh air is going to turn into a strong wind that is going to blow through the halls of NLA and take away with it Host Communications, the staff and the directors who are in league with them.

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 09-30-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jhj:
Johnny -
You aren't even on the same page. The dinner the night before the Chicago meeting was arranged by Joe Cirruzzo. I had been invited to dinner by Joe and others weeks before the meeting. Joe was part of the ISO 9000 meeting during the afternoon. We met Tom Mazza in the bar at the hotel around 6:00 and he was invited to come to dinner. When we were in front of the hotel waiting for the van to go to dinner, Ron Sorci was talking with part of the group and Joe invited him to dinner also. Your understanding is wrong, as usual. Also, Joe Cirruzzo and I had an understanding that it would not be useful to discuss broader matters in Chicago, and so it wasn't. Why didn't you invite me to your board meeting in New Orleans this weekend and we could have done all of this face-to-face? Let's not play silly games, Johnny. Any director of NLA could have responded in the past two months to any of the issues raised, including you, but you know as well as I do that any response would only have to admit everything I have been saying for there is no defense to the indefensible. By the way, I'll be in Atlantic City at the LimoDigest show. Any directors who want to meet face-to-face there are welcome to do so, although by then there may be problems relating to speaking directly to NLA directors since by then the NLA will be represented by legal counsel and, if so, I will not be able to speak directly to any such lawyer's clients.
As for the Freedom of Information Act, you must live in a banana tree, Johnny, although you have part of it right. The FOI was enacted in the 1960s as a device to force government functionaries to give up documents that they typically hide from the public (just like NLA). It did not create a right to information, it established a procedure to enforce the right. It does not apply to private organizations, goofus. As in the case of government, NLA members have a right to information concerning the functioning of the corporation, and just like government, NLA stonewalls giving it out. The procedure for shareholders (of for-profit corporations) and members (of non-profits) to get information to which they are entitled is to file an action in the jurisdiction where the corporation or association is organized and get a court order directing the entity to surrender the information. Typically, the court will award costs and counsel fees for having to go to court to get it. If the documets I requested this week are not forthcoming in a week to 10 days, that is the procedure that will be used. AFTER the information is obtained, an action will be filed to enjoin NLA officers and directors, and Host Communications, from violating the by-laws and the D.C. law, and compelling compliance with the by-laws. The same action will seek a custodian or receiver to take charge of NLA's affairs until a board can be legally elected by the members in accordance with the by-laws. So, there are two aspects of proceedings in D.C. - the first to get documents that NLA is required to provide to members, and the second is to obtain full compliance with the by-laws and the laws of the District of Columbia.
I might add, if you say "there is nothing to hide," then why is it being hidden. Members of NLA have been trying to get the documents I requested for months, and in some cases years. Bob Scott tells them, "No problem," but the documents are never forthcoming, just like everything else that disappears into the NLA "black hole" and from which nothing escapes. The members have a right to documentation to see what income NLA gets other than from members (i.e., from vendors, etc.), how it spends its money, how much Host is getting paid, what expenses are being incurred, and whether there is proper authority for these financial transactions. Members also have a right to know what goes on in NLA directors' meetings, and if there has ever been a legally convened meeting of the members since 1987 when NLA is formed. The members also have a right to elect whomever they want to vote for to be directors, not just those insiders nominated by the Nominating Committee and they have a right to elect directors from the entire membership, not just from "regions" where you end up putting flacks on the board just to keep qualified people off.


[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 09-30-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Jim

If you read the posts, I was asked that question from Guy of Tampa. Anyone is a guest. Why do you need special treatment?

By the way Jim, my name is John not Johnny. Johnny would be ok, but I feel you are being insulting as usual. There is no stonewalling. Just relax, everything is going to be alright.Take two pills, call me in the morning.

John Sinibaldi
NLA Boardmember

------------------

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:

Jim

If you read the posts, I was asked that question from Guy of Tampa. Anyone is a guest. Why do you need special treatment?

By the way Jim, my name is John not Johnny. Johnny would be ok, but I feel you are being insulting as usual. There is no stonewalling. Just relax, everything is going to be alright.Take two pills, call me in the morning.

John Sinibaldi
NLA Boardmember
P.S.

Jim
So you won't get on your soap box. I beleive the NLA will not be at the LIMO Digest show because of the QVM issue. It is also my understanding that GM and Ford will not be there as well.
John

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

------------------

I'm not being insulting, Johnny - I'm being condescending.
The QVM issue is a fig leaf. There are "real" reasons NLA will not be at LimoDigest. For God's sake, NLA was there last year and almost nobody stopped by the booth. Most of the time it was empty, except for Charles Tenney hanging around. Plase don't be so naieve about these things. Unless something has changed, the LimoDigest Show has a Q&A session for an hour each with Cadillac at 11:00 AM on Nov. 7 and with Lincoln at 10:00 AM on Nov. 8. On the web site ( http://www.limoshow.com ), Cadillac Corporation is shown as an exhibitor, as well as Lincoln's principal dealer, Acton Lincoln-Mercury, which I am led to believe is a "company store." Lincoln is probably not going to be there "in name" (although it will be there "in fact") for the well-publicized reasons stated in LimoDigest, but that is probably stupid on their part considering the run that Cadillac is making on Lincoln's market share in livery sedans. QVM has nothing to do with anything. Besides, the courts are going to sort out the QVM thing one of these days.

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 09-30-2000).]

The deadline for the December issue is October 15th. E-mail me a crisp, cogent letter and I will print it and respond to it, if appropriate. Give me some concrete suggestions to improve the limousine industry and I'll print it.

I stand by my cojones comments. Darryl Norman, David Seelinger, John Sinibaldi, Linda Bouland were approachable and available in Chicago. If I was an NLA member and had the number of complaints and criticism's that you have. I would have asked for a private moment before, after our meeting or during the break and I would have quickly aired my grievances.

I also say "No Way" as to NLA Directors being silenced. If you have ever sat through an NLA Meeting as I have, you would realize that entrepreneurs by nature HATE being told what to do. Believe it or not, there are NLA Directors who are NOT AWARE of this forum. I know because 5 minutes before this post I got a call from one who said he never heard of "Limos.com"

And by the way, does a rational person file lawsuits based on the fact he doesn't like another person's posts on the Net????? I don't think so. If you think the NLA needs to be sued, sue them but dont blame John Sinibaldi. It's as ridiculous as saying Dean Schuler's criticism killed Livery Coach

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tom mazza:
The deadline for the December issue is October 15th. E-mail me a crisp, cogent letter and I will print it and respond to it, if appropriate. Give me some concrete suggestions to improve the limousine industry and I'll print it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's awfully close in time because so much is likely to happen before the December issue comes out. Let me think about that a bit.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I stand by my cojones comments. Darryl Norman, David Seelinger, John Sinibaldi, Linda Bouland were approachable and available in Chicago. If I was an NLA member and had the number of complaints and criticism's that you have. I would have asked for a private moment before, after our meeting or during the break and I would have quickly aired my grievances.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Then you'll just have to stand by them, Tom - I have a feel for when it's appropriate to do something and when it isn't, and my sense was and is that that would have been a stupid move.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I also say "No Way" as to NLA Directors being silenced. If you have ever sat through an NLA Meeting as I have, you would realize that entrepreneurs by nature HATE being told what to do. Believe it or not, there are NLA Directors who are NOT AWARE of this forum. I know because 5 minutes before this post I got a call from one who said he never heard of "Limos.com"]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Tom, the reason I have such a hard time accepting your view is that it is incredible my point of view (incredible, as in NOT-credible). You are basing your statements on your knowledge of the way the directors operate, without any actual evidentiary support, while I, on the other hand, am getting calls where people are saying that the wagons are being circled. As for an NLA director who never heard of limos.com - I refer you back to one of my earlier posts where I replied to a post by Dean Schuler that I thought "being out of touch" was a prerequisite to be an NLA director, and I was apparently right as to the director of which you speak.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And by the way, does a rational person file lawsuits based on the fact he doesn't like another person's posts on the Net????? I don't think so. If you think the NLA needs to be sued, sue them but dont blame John Sinibaldi. It's as ridiculous as saying Dean Schuler's criticism killed Livery Coach<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Come on, Tom. Do you read these posts? First of all, it's not whether I "like" or "dislike" what somebody says - there are objective standards of rationality, you know. And Johnny is NOT just a "person," he is an NLA director who has participated in these forums AS an NLA Director. When he says, "Take your best shot, Dude," there isn't a lot of choice left. That's a "put up or shut up" challenge, a lot like why I went to Chicago. There's a point in any deliberative process when you have to take action based upon your principles and your arguments, and although I'm not sure NLA would ever have come to its senses and started to follow its own by-laws, perhaps some additional time might have brought them around. That isn't possible with Johnny running around throwing down gaunlets.
And I do want to ask an additional question. Why is the nominating committee grist for a column, when the fact that NLA has never had a legal meeting of its members since almost the beginning (if then) and has therefore never legally elected a board, refuses members copies of financial statements and access to financial information, and may have unlawfully turned over management of the association to Host Communciations, not something that the industry should know about through at least one, if not both, of the industry magazines.
You want to know how to improve the industry - clean house at NLA, install new by-laws that make NLA far more inclusive, make NLA far more democratic and open the door wide to much greater individual participation in NLA, move NLA to the DC area, hire an "experienced" association executive who is well known and with a solid track-record in legislative affairs, hire a competent supporting staff, and go for it. I have a few ideas modeled on some other trade associations, but I'm not sure they distill to 600 words or less (see next post).

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 09-30-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tom mazza:
The deadline for the December issue is October 15th. E-mail me a crisp, cogent letter and I will print it and respond to it, if appropriate. Give me some concrete suggestions to improve the limousine industry and I'll print it.

I stand by my cojones comments. Darryl Norman, David Seelinger, John Sinibaldi, Linda Bouland were approachable and available in Chicago. If I was an NLA member and had the number of complaints and criticism's that you have. I would have asked for a private moment before, after our meeting or during the break and I would have quickly aired my grievances.

I also say "No Way" as to NLA Directors being silenced. If you have ever sat through an NLA Meeting as I have, you would realize that entrepreneurs by nature HATE being told what to do. Believe it or not, there are NLA Directors who are NOT AWARE of this forum. I know because 5 minutes before this post I got a call from one who said he never heard of "Limos.com"

And by the way, does a rational person file lawsuits based on the fact he doesn't like another person's posts on the Net????? I don't think so. If you think the NLA needs to be sued, sue them but dont blame John Sinibaldi. It's as ridiculous as saying Dean Schuler's criticism killed Livery Coach<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Tommy, That was a mercy killing. However, they brought it on themselves. If the product had worked, history would indeed be different. P.S. I enjoyed your article on Sewell, give us more!! Sincerely, Dean Schuler

This is a follow-up to the offer Tom Mazza made to tell him how to improve the industry. At this point, I'm thinking out loud, but here is some food for thought.
My comments are based on the premise that the industry can be improved by a much larger, vigorous and democratic trade association, whether it be a reorganized NLA or a replacement. Based on that premise, here are some of my off-the-top-of-my-head thoughts. For lack of a better reference, I'll refer to a national trade association, whether new or a reorganized NLA, as "NLA."
NLA should have multiple classes of membership, and they should all be voting - 1 vote per member. Chauffeurs should be admitted to associate membership, but non-voting. The size of the board of directors should be reduced and meet less frequently. The real work should go on in committees, such as an executive committee and a finance committee, to which the powers of the board are delegated. The executive director should sit ex officio on each committee, but not on the board of directors. There should be no management company. Directors terms should not be limited so that good people can stick around.
The real work of NLA will go on in "councils" or "sections," to which members can belong by paying additional dues for membership in those sections. Members may be members of more than one Section. The Sections that come to mind are Sections organized along he following lines: (1) Legislation and Government Relations; (2) Vendors and Equipment; (3) Safety; (4) Industry Tehnology; and (5) Industry Education & Training. (I just invented these titles, but I'm certainly not married to them). Each Section should have a prominent Chairman and chairman-elect who have credentials and interest in the area. In the long run, after membership increases, a staff member should be hired to support the work of each of the Sections. The Sections should publish and circulate their own newsletters to the members of the Section. Each section should elect its own Chairman and the chairman-elect should succeed the chairman for continuity and to gain experience in management of the Section. What I am saying here is that the real work of the NLA should shift from the board of directors to the various sections, and the directors left to manage and promote the good and general welfare of the association.
There should be a nominating committee to offer candidates for election to directorships, but its role should be to pass upon the legal qualifications for election and it should be an active body and should solicit and encourage members to run for directorships by reaching out and recruiting people from the industry who might not otherwise run. The nominating committee should not be the sole path to nomination, and members should be able by petition to advance other candidates for the board of directors.
Annual dues should be reduced for limousine services that want to be members of NLA (say to $75-100), and dues for chauffeurs should be nominal (say $25-35 annually). Dues for Sections should be substantially more.
NLA should then engage in a vigorous education program. Somewhere near its offices, if not as part of them, should be an educational facility. NLA should develop the best chauffeur and staff training program in the country and operate on a fee basis. The cost of training chauffeurs can go down for all companies because of economies of scale and a national consensus on what should be included in chauffeur training. As part of this educational process should be a strong chauffeur recognition and achievement program, perhaps incorporating what I think was the best part of the CTCP. Training in sales and reservations could and should also be included. All of the training should be done by persons with education and training in adult education, using materials and concepts which the industry as a whole has found to be useful. There should also be seminars in business management, where small operators who may have never run a business before can come to receive training in tax reporting, books of account and financial statements, as well as instruction in human resource requirements, hiring and firing employees. All seminars and training sessions should be set up on an annual schedule, well in advance. Some of the most popular seminars and classes might also travel around the country like the present roadshows.
Part of the NLA facility should be a technology center where vendors are invited to set up permanent demonstrations of hardware and software unique or useful to the chauffeured transportation industry. An NLA staff person should be trained in the operation of all such equipment and software. Members can come to this facility, for as long as they like, and work with this gear and software and see what is best suited to their own operation.
By the way, what I have just described is like a standing trade show as an adjunct of NLA, only more focused and more hands on.

I'm sure I'll have other thoughts later, but I am a firm beleiver that a trade association is like any other business - it has to offer a product for which there is demand, the product has to meet the demand, and it has to be priced to be affordable while defraying its own costs. If NLA doesn't offer a product that is in demand at a price members can afford and are willing to pay, it will either whither and die or remain a small association with a small "market share" forever.
NLA should get out of industry politics and efforts to tilt the playing field in any way for or against any group or class of operators.
I'm not sure I can fit my overall vision of how to improve the industry in 600 words or less, and I'll probably try, but I wouldn't mind the offer to do a feature article that would be substantially longer than 600 words by picking up these ideas and fleshing them out. Anybody out there from LimoDigest?
Is there anybody out there that thinks this is the right track compared to where NLA is going now that would like to form a task force to take some or all of these ideas and run with them?
I've already discussed with some prominent industry folks the need to draft a proposed set of by-laws for either a new association or for a reorganized NLA, and have started such a draft. Perhaps when they're done I'll put them in PDF format so people can download them from a special section of our web site, or convert them to html so they can be reviewed on the web. Any reactions to that idea?
Any thoughts, Tom Mazza? You asked, I answered.

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 09-30-2000).]

jhj,
Its me again. Although I agree with most of your arguments, the idea of your suing the NLA is unfounded. Remember my last post to you? Add this one " Sticks And Stones
May Brake My Bones But Names Will Never Hurt Me". I would think that of all people you a lawyer would be used to waiting. Considering how clogged up our court system is.

I'm curious are you a member of the local association in PA? If so what do your fellow
members think about the current problems with the NLA.

Signed,
Paulie Walnuts

PS. Your pissing on my garden and I dont appreciate it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paulie Walnuts:
I'm curious are you a member of the local association in PA? If so what do your fellow
members think about the current problems with the NLA.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The local association, if it still exists, is not meaningful. It was active some time ago during the IRS independent contractor challenge, but it really isn't on the radar screen anymore. By the way, I didn't mention local associations in my "how to improve the industry" response to Tom Mazza, but I am a big booster of local and regional associations because they offer a way for the really small operators to participate in the industry. Too often, however, they are dominated by the larger local companies. A new or reorganized NLA should draw such associations much closer and create a template for them, and boost their organization in areas where they don't exist or are inactive. They are a great resource for the national association directors and, in my approach, the Sections - sort of like a baseball farm system.
By the way, I wasn't aiming for your garden, I don't think.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paulie Walnuts:
what do your fellow
members think about the current problems with the NLA.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I forgot to mention that there really aren't very many local companies that are members of the NLA. If you define Pittsburgh to mean the Metropolitan area (which is much broader than Tom Mazza will use in giving us a Pittsburgh count), there are 13 companies with Pittsburgh mailing addresses that are members, and two of those are now one company, and there are 3 companies within the metropolitan area that have mailing addresses that are suburban, for a total of 15 NLA members in this area. To my knowledge, nobody in any of the companies has ever had an active role in NLA matters and are like most members, i.e., generally unaware of anything that goes on at NLA. By the way, the metropolitan area, as I have defined it, has a total population of about 2,000,000 people.


[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 09-30-2000).]

I'm on my way out but let me address a few things.

First, let's get something straight. The LCT Show in Las Vegas consists of Bobit Publishing partnering with the NLA. One of the things that WE INSIST on from our partners is loyalty. We are the NLA's single biggest revenue item so we INSIST the NLA does not take an active role in our competitors show. BLAME TY BOBIT, SARA McCLEAN AND TOM MAZZA for our partner not actively participating in Atlantic City. We pushed hard that our show be the true national show and the fact that we are so much bigger than the AC show proves we are doing well.

Jim, I mentioned that I am writing about the nominating committee because I made an observation and now I'm writing about it. I am not writing about a total dismantling of the NLA because I don't believe that is necessary.

As to all of your suggestions, I have to scratch my head and wonder who is going to do all that work.

As to my friend on the Board being out of touch, I find that amazing. We are both on the phone constantly with "players" all over the country. (By players I mean influential operators, board members, owners of national companies, Ford and Cadillac reps, Association leaders, Wall St Transport Analysts etc.)
I guess I am out of touch too Jim. The 77,000 air miles this year, the 17 regional associations I have spoken to, the 100 site visits this year alone pale in comparison to an active computer in the Alleghenies.

The offer for space in the December magazine is valid but believe me, I am not a patient person and if you even consider taking shots at me, the offer will be withdrawn faster than you can say "conspiracy"

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tom mazza:
I'm on my way out but let me address a few things.

First, let's get something straight. The LCT Show in Las Vegas consists of Bobit Publishing partnering with the NLA. One of the things that WE INSIST on from our partners is loyalty. We are the NLA's single biggest revenue item so we INSIST the NLA does not take an active role in our competitors show. BLAME TY BOBIT, SARA McCLEAN AND TOM MAZZA for our partner not actively participating in Atlantic City. We pushed hard that our show be the true national show and the fact that we are so much bigger than the AC show proves we are doing well.

Jim, I mentioned that I am writing about the nominating committee because I made an observation and now I'm writing about it. I am not writing about a total dismantling of the NLA because I don't believe that is necessary.

As to all of your suggestions, I have to scratch my head and wonder who is going to do all that work.

As to my friend on the Board being out of touch, I find that amazing. We are both on the phone constantly with "players" all over the country. (By players I mean influential operators, board members, owners of national companies, Ford and Cadillac reps, Association leaders, Wall St Transport Analysts etc.)
I guess I am out of touch too Jim. The 77,000 air miles this year, the 17 regional associations I have spoken to, the 100 site visits this year alone pale in comparison to an active computer in the Alleghenies.

The offer for space in the December magazine is valid but believe me, I am not a patient person and if you even consider taking shots at me, the offer will be withdrawn faster than you can say "conspiracy"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Tommy, Anyone who has been around a long time in this wonderful industry of ours knows the tremendous contribution Ty Bobit made, and continues to make to our industry. I would be careful about show size comparisons, as Limousine Digest has a fairly hefty show now, and it grows bigger each year. There would not be three magazines if there was not a need. Likewise the sky-rocketing growth of limos.com. People will speak and people will get the word out. I would be surprised if JHJ meant disrespect to you in any way. Through my vast network of contacts I stay in very close touch with the industry, there are many ways to skin a cat. No one questions your commitment to the profession. The times are changing Tommy ! Sincerely, and with Great Respect, Dean Schuler

Dean, we sold 3650 tickets to our national show in Las Vegas. We had more exhibitors and more vendors than any show in the history of this industry. We are also completely sold out of vendor space and vehicle space in Las Vegas. What would you like me to be careful about?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jhj:
I'm not being insulting, Johnny - I'm being condescending.
The QVM issue is a fig leaf. There are "real" reasons NLA will not be at LimoDigest. For God's sake, NLA was there last year and almost nobody stopped by the booth. Most of the time it was empty, except for Charles Tenney hanging around. Plase don't be so naieve about these things. Unless something has changed, the LimoDigest Show has a Q&A session for an hour each with Cadillac at 11:00 AM on Nov. 7 and with Lincoln at 10:00 AM on Nov. 8. On the web site ( http://www.limoshow.com ), Cadillac Corporation is shown as an exhibitor, as well as Lincoln's principal dealer, Acton Lincoln-Mercury, which I am led to believe is a "company store." Lincoln is probably not going to be there "in name" (although it will be there "in fact") for the well-publicized reasons stated in LimoDigest, but that is probably stupid on their part considering the run that Cadillac is making on Lincoln's market share in livery sedans. QVM has nothing to do with anything. Besides, the courts are going to sort out the QVM thing one of these days.

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 09-30-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here,s Johnny

Please provide proof of the number of people who stopped by the NLA booth. Are you now a mouthpiece for Limo Digest? Please check with Ford & CaDALLIAC IF they are going to show up in a booth. Sorry about the dude remark, but if you were a film buff that word has meaning from the Film "Easy Rider"

Actually its a compliment. However, when the records are made public, you will certainly have egg on your face. But I am sure you will find another topic to complain about but at least people are seeing you in the real light.

By the way, How many young operators have you been a mentor too? Let's compare numbers. I thought this forum on Limos. com was suppose to help operators and not be a grand soap box to make false and misleading claims.
John Sinibaldi AKA Johnny to Jim "The Dude" Joseph

------------------

You guy's are getting me POTZ, I don't know what forum I'm in anymore, I just left the other one.

You know what the problem is here, everybody is right.

Tommy you know me and my boy's have had certain problems with the NLA but we fought hard for what we believed past the word and did make progress.

Jim you are right to, so the NLA (in NY street terms) has Fu*Ked some things up, but this is getting crazy.

Yes they have pissed me off, but they also have righted things by making bylaw changes.

Maybe they should merge membership with the ITLA, I don't know, I have friends in both.

Unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world, not even in the limo industry.

Association's all make mistakes (I have been there)and yes I know this is on a much bigger scale, but what the hell.

Much has been brought out on this forum, something me and my crew have talked about for along time, I want to see the changes by way of the right directors getting in place, it could happen if guy's like Joe Cirruzzo, Alan Fisher, Don Kinsey get in there.

These guys look out for the average people they can make changes, this is the right way. 75% of the membership does not care about any of this stuff, they just want to belong to something, some belong to the ITLA also for no other reason nothing wrong with that.
If your looking for them to get on here and say they Fu*ked up, it ain't gonna happen.

I agree with what your saying but Rome wasn't built in a day, neither was your business.

John S in all due respect you ain't helping the NLA with your cent and a half worth of effort here either.
Relax your bones, I know you want to stick up for the NLA but Jim is right, leave it alone, you shouldn't have time for this with all the work Carey is sending you anyway.

I will tell you this Jim the friends I do have on the NLA staff (not many) I can not stand by and let "them" get dragged and beaten.

I want changes but I'm a street guy not a court guy, I'm vindictive and can really be a pr*ck, I rather fight it out for a year then waste my time in court to get it done in 2 months. (its more fun)

I invite the whole bunch to a live forum in Jersey, (No Barry your not invited to this one, you pissed me off).

Jim your way to get it done ain't right in my
book. If thats the route, I'll take a cab.

Tommy I love ya but you guy's should not put preasure on the NLA to stay away from that Jersey show, to much potential to pick up even one member, they need a presence. Unless of course you guy's are just going to take the NLA over, then you got a point.

See ya soon Tommy

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Guy in Tampa:
I will tell you this Jim the friends I do have on the NLA staff (not many) I can not stand by and let "them" get dragged and beaten.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Remember what the word "staff" means - the paid employees who work for NLA 40 hours per week, NOT the directors and officers.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I want changes but I'm a street guy not a court guy, I'm vindictive and can really be a pr*ck, I rather fight it out for a year then waste my time in court to get it done in 2 months. (its more fun)

Jim your way to get it done ain't right in my
book. If thats the route, I'll take a cab.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Changes are one thing, Guy, but complete disregard of the by-laws and the law to hijack the NLA from the members is the most serious thing that can happen. Let's also remember that in two months, NLA has not been willing to admit that it is operating illegally and has done nothing to correct what they are doing. Besides, I don't have a year or so to waste when I can straighten this whole thing out in a short period with a minimum of my time.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
Please provide proof of the number of people who stopped by the NLA booth.[QUOTE]
Johnny, you are indeed ridiculous. The LimoDigest Show has limited exhibit hours - 3 hours on the first day, 5 hours on the second day and 3.5 hours on the last day. You can see almost anywhere from anywhere on the exhibit floor, but last November I was spending most of my time in the booths around the perimeter where the NLA booth is located. Part of the time I spent in the booth talking with Charles Teney. I don't need any "proof" because I saw with my own eyes how busy (or unbusy) the booth was. Why don't you provide "proof" of how many new members were signed up in that 11.5 hours last year - that will tell you how "busy" the booth was (and I don't mean total new members during some period of time close to the Show, I mean number of membership applications filled out at the Show).

[QUOTE]Are you now a mouthpiece for Limo Digest?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Johnny, you are really silly. A large portion of my law practice hsitorically has been in the trade regulation area. I have represented antitrust plaintiffs across the U.S. for years. I am a super believer in competition and I have never seen it fail that when competition is diminished or non-existent the consumer suffers immensely. If there weren't two or more associations in the limousine business, we'd have to invent them. If there weren't two or more magazines, we'd have to start at least one. If there weren't two trade shows, we'd have to do one of those two. I think it would be good to draw LimoDigest into the discussion that Tom Mazza and we have been having. I think it is good to have NLA's support up for grabs by the trade shows - although, as I said before, merely playing one trade show competitor against another is a short-term and short-sighted approach that will eventually backfire. Right now Bobit has NLA's attention, and I doubt they would be paying NLA anything if there wasn't a second trade show, even if NLA's support is questionably weak. I'm not a mouthpiece for anybody except "me" and any client who pays the freight.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Please check with Ford & CaDALLIAC IF they are going to show up in a booth.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't need to check with anybody - the list of exhibitors is on the LimoDigest web site - go check for yourself. By the way, in case you've never been an "exhibitor" in a trade show, that means "booth." As I said, Lincoln is not an exhibitor, but it need not be since Acton is there with several cars. And, as I also said, and maybe Tom Mazza can confirm this, I understand that Action is a "company store." In case you don't have experience with that term, Johnny, "company store" means owned by Ford.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>However, when the records are made public, you will certainly have egg on your face.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Fat chance, except by court order. NLA and you, Sokol, Sorci, etc. have had two months on this forum to make information available and have done nothing, even though you made promises. How long does it take to reach in a file drawer, make a copy and stick it in the mail - ooooppppppssss, I forgot who we're talking about here, the NLA STAFF, which can't find either the file, file drawer, copier, stamps or the post office. Well, I guess you're right on this one Johnny, it might well take the NLA Staff two months to find a few pieces of paper.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>By the way, How many young operators have you been a mentor too? Let's compare numbers. I thought this forum on Limos. com was suppose to help operators and not be a grand soap box to make false and misleading claims.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Johnny, you've been watching Easy Rider too long and smokin' stuff you shouldn't be somkin'. Since when did anyone ever say that these forums were for mentoring adn helping other operators. Although that is certainly one possible use for them, they are also a soapbox for anyone to say anything they want about anything. As for false and misleadin claims, you haven't proved anything false yet. All you do is use "labels," Johnny, as if because you tag something with a label it is therefore beyond dispute. My profession is based on "evidence," Johnny - something that NLA won't let come to light. But it will, it will - SOON. I'm not in the mentoring business at this time, Johnny.



[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 10-01-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tom mazza:
The LCT Show in Las Vegas consists of Bobit Publishing partnering with the NLA. One of the things that WE INSIST on from our partners is loyalty. We are the NLA's single biggest revenue item so we INSIST the NLA does not take an active role in our competitors show. BLAME TY BOBIT, SARA McCLEAN AND TOM MAZZA for our partner not actively participating in Atlantic City.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> A legitimate thing to do, so long as you recognize that by doing so NLA has compromised its independence as a trade association and is up for sale to the highest bidder. I take no position on whether that's good or bad - I'm just observing the state of affairs that exists. I think, however, you have to confess to the relationship having an inherent editorial impact - i.e., LCT isn't going to take on the kind of hard issues I have been discussing as long as it is "partnering" with NLA in important business matters. But this is what is good about competition - maybe LimoDigest will.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Jim, I mentioned that I am writing about the nominating committee because I made an observation and now I'm writing about it. I am not writing about a total dismantling of the NLA because I don't believe that is necessary.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't think a total dismantling of NLA is "necessary" either, as long as NLA is capable of reorganizing itself. So far, there has been no indication that it is. Stonewalling works until a force comes along that shatters the wall, and then it can't be rebuilt. My observations have been that given the response (or lack thereof) to the issues in these forums, it COULD spell the long-term demise of the NLA as we know it. My comments recently about major structural changes to NLA were in response to your request to tell you something that would improve the industry - they were not a personal agenda, although I do believe in what I said. That doesn't mean I'm going to try to be an NLA director and put such an agenda into effect - others will have to do so. This isn't my only business, I'm not 35 years old, and I have higher priorities than using my time to try to improve the limousine industry, as well as places where I can be more effective.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As to all of your suggestions, I have to scratch my head and wonder who is going to do all that work.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That's a legitimate question, but what I laid out, as I pointed out, does not get installed instantaneously. You will note that I specifically predicated the NLA structure on growth in the membership. Since there are people who are willing to participate in NLA that aren't getting through the Nominating Committee, and the board would be cut in size, there would be enough participants from the git-go to fill the positions I described. I think NLA would grow a lot with the structure I laid out, and as that happened a lot of new blood would be pumped into NLA and the industry.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As to my friend on the Board being out of touch, I find that amazing. We are both on the phone constantly with "players" all over the country. (By players I mean influential operators, board members, owners of national companies, Ford and Cadillac reps, Association leaders, Wall St Transport Analysts etc.)
I guess I am out of touch too Jim. The 77,000 air miles this year, the 17 regional associations I have spoken to, the 100 site visits this year alone pale in comparison to an active computer in the Alleghenies.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is a strawman, Tom. No one ever said you were out of touch. YOU know what limos.com is. Your friend on the board doesn't. He may be "in touch" with a lot of people, but when you're out of touch with technology in this day and age, you're out of touch. If you are insinuating that I am not "in touch" with the industry to the same extent as you are by the last reference, you are perfectly right. You get paid for being in touch, and as a journalist you must be "in touch." The more "in touch" you are, the better you can do your job. I don't NEED to be that in touch, and I don't WANT to be that in touch. But our relative "in touchedness" has nothing to do with non-relative issues like whether NLA is operating within its legal and governmental mandates and confines.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The offer for space in the December magazine is valid but believe me, I am not a patient person and if you even consider taking shots at me, the offer will be withdrawn faster than you can say "conspiracy"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Where did this come from? Have I taken a shot at you? I'm not sure what precipitated this kind of comment. Is pushing you to consider a broader commentary on NLA internal government a "shot?" I hope not. You are, after all, a journalist and the most influential one in the business. That makes you fair game to try to influence to examine and report all manner of things. Don't get thin skinned when you get a little push http://limos.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tom mazza:
Dean, we sold 3650 tickets to our national show in Las Vegas. We had more exhibitors and more vendors than any show in the history of this industry. We are also completely sold out of vendor space and vehicle space in Las Vegas. What would you like me to be careful about?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Tommy, The Digest Show does extremely well, other shows in our industry do also. The tent is big-bigger than this 24 year veteran has ever seen it. I admire your loyalty to your employer and your burning devotion to the chauffeured transportation trade. With Great Respect, Dean Schuler

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jhj:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tom mazza:
The LCT Show in Las Vegas consists of Bobit Publishing partnering with the NLA. One of the things that WE INSIST on from our partners is loyalty. We are the NLA's single biggest revenue item so we INSIST the NLA does not take an active role in our competitors show. BLAME TY BOBIT, SARA McCLEAN AND TOM MAZZA for our partner not actively participating in Atlantic City.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> A legitimate thing to do, so long as you recognize that by doing so NLA has compromised its independence as a trade association and is up for sale to the highest bidder. I take no position on whether that's good or bad - I'm just observing the state of affairs that exists. I think, however, you have to confess to the relationship having an inherent editorial impact - i.e., LCT isn't going to take on the kind of hard issues I have been discussing as long as it is "partnering" with NLA in important business matters. But this is what is good about competition - maybe LimoDigest will.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Jim, I mentioned that I am writing about the nominating committee because I made an observation and now I'm writing about it. I am not writing about a total dismantling of the NLA because I don't believe that is necessary.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't think a total dismantling of NLA is "necessary" either, as long as NLA is capable of reorganizing itself. So far, there has been no indication that it is. Stonewalling works until a force comes along that shatters the wall, and then it can't be rebuilt. My observations have been that given the response (or lack thereof) to the issues in these forums, it COULD spell the long-term demise of the NLA as we know it. My comments recently about major structural changes to NLA were in response to your request to tell you something that would improve the industry - they were not a personal agenda, although I do believe in what I said. That doesn't mean I'm going to try to be an NLA director and put such an agenda into effect - others will have to do so. This isn't my only business, I'm not 35 years old, and I have higher priorities than using my time to try to improve the limousine industry, as well as places where I can be more effective.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As to all of your suggestions, I have to scratch my head and wonder who is going to do all that work.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That's a legitimate question, but what I laid out, as I pointed out, does not get installed instantaneously. You will note that I specifically predicated the NLA structure on growth in the membership. Since there are people who are willing to participate in NLA that aren't getting through the Nominating Committee, and the board would be cut in size, there would be enough participants from the git-go to fill the positions I described. I think NLA would grow a lot with the structure I laid out, and as that happened a lot of new blood would be pumped into NLA and the industry.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As to my friend on the Board being out of touch, I find that amazing. We are both on the phone constantly with "players" all over the country. (By players I mean influential operators, board members, owners of national companies, Ford and Cadillac reps, Association leaders, Wall St Transport Analysts etc.)
I guess I am out of touch too Jim. The 77,000 air miles this year, the 17 regional associations I have spoken to, the 100 site visits this year alone pale in comparison to an active computer in the Alleghenies.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is a strawman, Tom. No one ever said you were out of touch. YOU know what limos.com is. Your friend on the board doesn't. He may be "in touch" with a lot of people, but when you're out of touch with technology in this day and age, you're out of touch. If you are insinuating that I am not "in touch" with the industry to the same extent as you are by the last reference, you are perfectly right. You get paid for being in touch, and as a journalist you must be "in touch." The more "in touch" you are, the better you can do your job. I don't NEED to be that in touch, and I don't WANT to be that in touch. But our relative "in touchedness" has nothing to do with non-relative issues like whether NLA is operating within its legal and governmental mandates and confines.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The offer for space in the December magazine is valid but believe me, I am not a patient person and if you even consider taking shots at me, the offer will be withdrawn faster than you can say "conspiracy"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Where did this come from? Have I taken a shot at you? I'm not sure what precipitated this kind of comment. Is pushing you to consider a broader commentary on NLA internal government a "shot?" I hope not. You are, after all, a journalist and the most influential one in the business. That makes you fair game to try to influence to examine and report all manner of things. Don't get thin skinned when you get a little push http://limos.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .JHJ, Don't worry, LCT doesn't control the industry like they did in the 1980's. They are an excellent publication. You will have a forum in LIMOUSINE DIGEST, I called them today. I am the FOUNDER of LIMOUSINE DIGEST, and although I am, retired, as a member of the LIMOUSINE INDUSTRY COUNCIL, I carry weight. The truth will come out, regardless of Tommy's statements. DEAN SCHULER

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nkokas:
I have called and e-mailed the NLA in regards to to questions that I have. Guess what? Not one person has responded. Since this forum has some experienced people from the industry in it, maybe I can ask here. This coming up week on Tuesday in Michigan the State of Michigan will be voting on a bill that will force all limousine operators to obtain a separate license in order to do business in the city of Detroit. Three other cities are watching to see if it passes so that they can do the same. I'm a small operator and if this passes I will be dead in the water! The Taxi cab Association seems to be the one supporting the bill. We plan on protesting the bill by inviting companies all over the state to at least bring one limo from their companies to parade them in front of the capital in opposing the bill. I've e-mailed the NLA so I could get ideas on how we as a local association can defeat this bill and no answer. Also do other people from around the states have any sample speeches used that one could use in such a case in front of the House. I'm sure the state of Florida is dealing with a similar issue. I feel this is the type of IMPORTANT issues we need to help eachother with as an industry instead of fighting back and forth with who's right on how many companies there are. Also last year I could not attend the industry show since I'm such a small company and my expenses do not alow me to go. The NLA at a road show in Detroit which was to simply recruit members told me that the NLA gives out "scholarships" to companies who can not afford to go the show. Well I attempted to contact the NLA to find out the process of getting such a thing. Guess what ignored once again. I've been a member of the NLA for a year now and I'm starting to feel used and betrayed by the NLA because I feel an association nsuch as the NLA should be there as a guide for us in the industry so that we can all be succesful and prosper.

[This message has been edited by nkokas (edited 09-29-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I feel that a valid question was posted here but it's too bad that this forum is full of people fighting over the same thing over and over again that we forget about important issues that are actually happening in the industry all over the United States. This could probably be why laws are being passed that have negative impacts in our industry because we as an industry can not unite and fight for our rights. When I visit this forum I feel as though I'm watching a political drama show that is full of red tape issues. QUIT IT! Get off all your power trips and lets deal with issues at hand that can help the industry as a whole and stop playing the politics game!!

Dean,

We appreciate your comments and opinions, but could you please omit the name calling and inferred insults?

Thanks.
Michael

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nkokas:
I feel that a valid question was posted here but it's too bad that this forum is full of people fighting over the same thing over and over again that we forget about important issues that are actually happening in the industry all over the United States. This could probably be why laws are being passed that have negative impacts in our industry because we as an industry can not unite and fight for our rights. When I visit this forum I feel as though I'm watching a political drama show that is full of red tape issues. QUIT IT! Get off all your power trips and lets deal with issues at hand that can help the industry as a whole and stop playing the politics game!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For Scholarship Info try Contacting Mimi Williams Special Event Coordinator at LCT.

Your right there Mikey C, what I want to know is what is the Limousine Council? Dean, my gombas never heard of it.
One other thing Dean, I do happen to have some friends on the NLA board, and they do things that are right for everyone, please don't flush them all!

Yes, I never heard of the Limousine Industry Council either. I only hear Dean mention it; perhaps he can tell us.

This news flash really does not have anything to do with what is going on in this forum, but it is news.
Word from Joe C in Vegas who is at the ITLA convention was at 3 pm Tuesday the TLC in New York has sent correspondance to Washington that they are against HR 1689, and they have some senators that are now apposing it also. This "could" cause a problem for the bill. The NLA's only, Barry L was in New Orleans at the NLA board meeting not in washington. We will not know more for a day or 2.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ragu:
This news flash really does not have anything to do with what is going on in this forum, but it is news.
Word from Joe C in Vegas who is at the ITLA convention was at 3 pm Tuesday the TLC in New York has sent correspondance to Washington that they are against HR 1689, and they have some senators that are now apposing it also. This "could" cause a problem for the bill. The NLA's only, Barry L was in New Orleans at the NLA board meeting not in washington. We will not know more for a day or 2.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ragu,
Sorry you didn't get the message early yesterday morning. I think I woke up most of the state presidents to let them know. I tried calling you and the others and left the message with Greg to make some calls to DC about the TLC letter.
I was on a cell phone and as soon as the call came in I called to let you all know.
The battery only lasts so long.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Guy in Tampa:
You guy's are getting me POTZ, I don't know what forum I'm in anymore, I just left the other one.

You know what the problem is here, everybody is right.

Tommy you know me and my boy's have had certain problems with the NLA but we fought hard for what we believed past the word and did make progress.

Jim you are right to, so the NLA (in NY street terms) has Fu*Ked some things up, but this is getting crazy.

Yes they have pissed me off, but they also have righted things by making bylaw changes.

Maybe they should merge membership with the ITLA, I don't know, I have friends in both.

Unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world, not even in the limo industry.

Association's all make mistakes (I have been there)and yes I know this is on a much bigger scale, but what the hell.

Much has been brought out on this forum, something me and my crew have talked about for along time, I want to see the changes by way of the right directors getting in place, it could happen if guy's like Joe Cirruzzo, Alan Fisher, Don Kinsey get in there.

These guys look out for the average people they can make changes, this is the right way. 75% of the membership does not care about any of this stuff, they just want to belong to something, some belong to the ITLA also for no other reason nothing wrong with that.
If your looking for them to get on here and say they Fu*ked up, it ain't gonna happen.

I agree with what your saying but Rome wasn't built in a day, neither was your business.

John S in all due respect you ain't helping the NLA with your cent and a half worth of effort here either.
Relax your bones, I know you want to stick up for the NLA but Jim is right, leave it alone, you shouldn't have time for this with all the work Carey is sending you anyway.

I will tell you this Jim the friends I do have on the NLA staff (not many) I can not stand by and let "them" get dragged and beaten.

I want changes but I'm a street guy not a court guy, I'm vindictive and can really be a pr*ck, I rather fight it out for a year then waste my time in court to get it done in 2 months. (its more fun)

I invite the whole bunch to a live forum in Jersey, (No Barry your not invited to this one, you pissed me off).

Jim your way to get it done ain't right in my
book. If thats the route, I'll take a cab.

Tommy I love ya but you guy's should not put preasure on the NLA to stay away from that Jersey show, to much potential to pick up even one member, they need a presence. Unless of course you guy's are just going to take the NLA over, then you got a point.

See ya soon Tommy

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

**************
Hello Guy from Tampa

Just a quick note. My new adoptive Mother " Carolyn" has clued me in. I would also be happy to compare notes with you concerning the operations of our companies. I started out seven years ago with one car at home. We are still small, only have five vehicles, however I do use a number of I/O's. Carey has been good, but we had the foundation and a good customer base already. Carey is just more gravey in the Corporate arena.
I serve on the vendor Liason group. I help members that have problems with vendors such as Limo builders, software and not getting paid for I/O work. So you see Guy, I can work with the little operator because I am still a small operator. Check with Carolyn. You can contact me anytime by e-mail or phone. 503-881-9990.

John Sinibaldi
NLA Board Director
P.S. Our new and greatly improved web page goes live in 24-48 hours. Check it out.This is phase I.

------------------


[This message has been edited by fivestaroregon (edited 10-04-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dean Schuler:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> John, The NLA is not the U.S.Department of Commerce, that is their error, with the idiots that sit on thew board. With a few exceptions, you serve with extremely STUPID PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!! DEAN SCHULER, LIMOUSINE INDUSTRY COUNCIL

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
**********
Dean

Have sent you an e-mail concerning this post. I don't know anybody on this board that meets that description.
John Sinibaldi
NLA Board

------------------

You know Dean sometimes you make very good points, I also think the NLA needs some new blood running through their veins but I am getting tired of you calling anybody stupid.
I have not seen an answer to the question of what is the Limousine Council, I also have never heard of it. Who belongs beside you?
We all have issues with the NLA, and you might be pissed off, but becareful of getting pissed on.

Guy,
You are my buddy but I think you misunderstood what I said concerning LCT and our position on the LD Show and the NLA's participation.

We are a privately run, for profit business. We want our "partners" to fully support us in every sense of the word. We don't discourage the Board from attending and if you ever heard me speak, I always encourage people to network with other operators EVERY chance they get.

BUT, we believe if Board members actively recruit LD show attendees and appear in advertisements for their show then we believe the general public becomes confused as to who exactly does run the "national show." If you are our partner, then be a partner and support us unconditionally. It really is just a question of fairness and by the way, I buy a ticket to the LD show every year. Am I on the outs with Barry or am I welcome paisan?

Hi Tommy, I meant no direspect especially to my friends. As in the past you are always welcome to our Florida meetings, and also to my home.
The again you have never given me ultimatims as Mr. Barry L tried to do.
As you remember I was once part of that company called the Florida Livery Association, I have NO desire nor does any of the other association directors, to be locked in a room with the owner.
I feel the numbers of membership in just the Orlando association as compared to what there is in his speaks more of the truth than anything. Greg and Steve have done a great job there and represents the membership with much respect.
So I hope that you understand that you are always welcome.

See you later.

Does anybody know where Pussy Bonpinsiero is?

Oh Tommy just to clarify the Orlando membership issue, I would be willing to bet that GOLA has at least 3 times or close to 4 times the members, I rest my case.
Guy

PS: Very interesting bylaw changes concerning associations by the NLA.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jhj:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ragu:
John I appreciate your answer, but understand
about the little guys. If you are truley one of them, I will know shortly, because there is only a select few of the directors that my guy's hear from, the rest only call when they want something, I can't elaborate at this time,but after the nominations and elections I might have to. I am sure we will be speaking eventually.
Jims points are good, listen every association messes up, they just don't correct things until their called on it, maybe the point made somewhere on the forum about most NLA members don't know or care or even read the newsletters, they just want to be part of something. I would not take what Jim says personally,but start fixing some errors. Get the right people on the board to help do this, these guys are out there, just ask them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Would someone tell me what qualifies one to be a "little guy?" I want to know if we're in or out of that club.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
With 2 cars you are a "little guy". Just like I'm a little guy with 5 cars. I was on the Board with 1 car.
Even with 2 cars I can't understand where you find so much time to spend at the Computer. I run my business 24 hours a day. Who runs yours?
I don't do chat rooms or forums because the little free time I have I want to be my time to do "Kay stuff".
You have successfully pushed me to the point that I need to attempt to answer you. For me. Not caring one wit about you.I will try to follow your forum by topic.
Kay Hoskins

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kay Hoskins:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jhj:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ragu:
John I appreciate your answer, but understand
about the little guys. If you are truley one of them, I will know shortly, because there is only a select few of the directors that my guy's hear from, the rest only call when they want something, I can't elaborate at this time,but after the nominations and elections I might have to. I am sure we will be speaking eventually.
Jims points are good, listen every association messes up, they just don't correct things until their called on it, maybe the point made somewhere on the forum about most NLA members don't know or care or even read the newsletters, they just want to be part of something. I would not take what Jim says personally,but start fixing some errors. Get the right people on the board to help do this, these guys are out there, just ask them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Would someone tell me what qualifies one to be a "little guy?" I want to know if we're in or out of that club.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
With 2 cars you are a "little guy". Just like I'm a little guy with 5 cars. I was on the Board with 1 car.
Even with 2 cars I can't understand where you find so much time to spend at the Computer. I run my business 24 hours a day. Who runs yours?
I don't do chat rooms or forums because the little free time I have I want to be my time to do "Kay stuff".
You have successfully pushed me to the point that I need to attempt to answer you. For me. Not caring one wit about you.I will try to follow your forum by topic.
Kay Hoskins <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure who you are responding to. I assume it is not me if you think we have two cars. We have a staff - office personnel, an operations manager, a manager of chauffeur services, and others.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jhj:
The Annual Meeting -
The by-laws of NLA, at Article 5, Section A, provide for an annual meeting of the members of NLA at a time and place to be set by the board of directors. The by-laws also require that 10% of the voting members of NLA must be present in person or by proxy to establish a quorum to conduct business. Section B of Article 5 provides that written notice of the date, time, place and purpose of any meeting of the members shall be given by mail to all members of NLA not less than 30-45 days (whatever that means) prior to the date of the meeting. Section D provides that members of the NLA may vote at the annual meeting by proxy, but requires that the proxy be on file at the office of NLA prior to the meeting and be in a form determined by the Board of Directors, and that a signature card must be on file at the Executive Director's office for verification before all meetings.
Given those requirements, a number of questions have been posed, none of which have been previously answered. Forum participants are invited to provide input on any of these questions.
1. Has any NLA member ever received the required notice of an annual or special meeting of the members? Has such a notice ever been given?
2. Has any NLA member ever been solicited to give his or her proxy to vote at any meeting of the members? If so, what did the form of proxy look like? What form of proxy has been "approved" by the Board of Directors? Has anyone ever submitted a signature card to the Executive Director? What does that form look like? Is there a form to submit a signature?
3. Has there ever been a legally constituted meeting (i.e., 10% of members present in person or by proxy) of the members of NLA since its organization in 1986? If there has been no legal meeting (I am informed that there has not been), how have any directors been legally elected? How has any business been conducted? Are there minutes of any such meetings?
The point here is that despite the provisions of the by-laws, SOMEONE is conducting NLA business in an extra-legal fashion and without the authority intended by the by-laws. This has robbed the members of any active role in the government of NLA and has permitted a few persons to usurp all of the powers of the membership and remain virtually unaccountable to the members.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
First, history.
At the 1st L&C show in Atlantic City in December 1984 there was an impromptu meeting held by Chris Portugal & a lawyer Jeff Berger. Chris talked to every Limo operator at that show & got them to come to a meeting to discuss a national limousine association. We all literally pulled up a piece of floor in a corner of the convention hall. (Our by laws came from that lawyer)
The NLA had it's 1st organizational meeting on January 20, 1985. Maybe 150 people showed up. 23 of us became Founding Members at that meeting, 26 carried the association into 1986. B & K, a 4 car company, was 1 of the 1st to actually hand Jeff Berger a $500 check as a Founding member at that meeting.
There is a General Meeting each year at the L&C, NLA show at the NLA dinner. The meeting is made known to the members with every announcement of the elections & show in Limoscene. Members have been encouraged to give there input on a constant basis. There is always a Quorum at these meetings. Surveys were sent on a regular basis attempting to get input from the members. Were, because so few people answered that it became a waste of time & money. ByLaw changes have been sent to all members & discussion has been requested with no answers. Phone calls to members were made by Directors asking what they'd like to have the Assoc work on, what developments they wanted from the Assoc as we grew.
Get the facts before you speak JHJ. I don't know whose feeding you but some of your info is wrong. Oh, Your signature should be on your application formembership which is on file in the NLA office.
Kay Hoskins

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jhj:
My Point, And I Do Have One -
Among all of the issues of responsibility, accountability and association democracy and internal government raised in these posts, I must harken back to the post about the "management contract" with Host Communications. What does Host bring to the table for NLA - certainly Host has no clue what the by-laws say, or any intention of following those by-laws. Under Host, NLA has turned into a rogue organization that, before it is all over, is going to be not only an embarassment to prominent industry representatives who have hitched their wagon to the NLA star, but could lead to the collapse of the association itself and to ITLA becoming the dominant voice of the chauffeured transportation industry. And when we talk about management, let's take a look at the consolidated financial statements for Bull Run Corporation (the former gold-mining company that owns Host Communciations) and note that for the last two reported years it has operated at a considerable loss. And what about NLA? We need to find out.

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 09-26-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let's go to the ITLA. Predominately Taxi cab owners. They haven't helped you as limousine operators they've hurt you.
Thank the ITLA for HR 1689 being stalled as long as it has been. If Section 2 of 1689 was left as originally written, every State would have had relief.
ITLA wanted to protect it's Black Car operators. Black cars said they were Limousines because they didn't want to pay the cost of a Medallion as Taxi's do. Now they want to be classified as Taxi's so they won't have to be registered with the USDOT, formally ICC, & have to carry 1.5 mil Liability insurance. To me, Taxi's have a light on top & a meter inside.
Not to hurt any of your feelings, but this isn't only happening in NYC it has spread all over the USA. All the cities watch NYC & try to copy.
Kay Hoskins

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jhj:
I'm not sure who you are responding to. I assume it is not me if you think we have two cars. We have a staff - office personnel, an operations manager, a manager of chauffeur services, and others.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Prove it. Send the NLA a certificate of insurance listing the License #'s & vin#'s of your cars. Not unusual. Exactly what a prospective member of the Board has to do.
Kay Hoskins

Thank you very much, Kay, for a straightforward answer to the issues and questions raised. I'm not sure why such an answer couldn't be provided two months ago, however.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>There is a General Meeting each year at the L&C, NLA show at the NLA dinner. The meeting is made known to the members with every announcement of the elections & show in Limoscene.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I cannot find such a "notice" as is required by the by-laws in LimoScene. Can you refer back to the February, 2000 "meeting" and tell me where in LimoScene the "meeting notice" is set forth? The by-laws require that such "notice" be no less than 30-45 days (whatever that means) prior to the meeting, so it must apparently be in the October, 1999 LimoScene, but I don't see it. Also, the by-laws require that the "notice" specify the "purpose of the meeting."

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>There is always a Quorum at these meetings.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
How is a quorum counted? Is a particular person from a company required to be present? Any representative? How do you know who is or is not legitimately representing a company-member? Who can vote? How do you count them? If this meeting occurs at a "dinner," how do you monitor who is permitted in the meeting and who isn't, and who is an authorized company representative and who is not? And, finally, the 9th item of business at the annual meeting is "Election of officers and directors," as set forth in the by-laws, yet the directors were announced in the January/February 2000 LimoScene which was published BEFORE the LCT Show! How can that happen?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Get the facts before you speak JHJ. I don't know whose feeding you but some of your info is wrong. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I believe I have, Kay. Only after all of the questions are fully answered will we know if I have the facts or not. I hope you will answer the questions above as straightforward as you addressed the forum issues, but hopefully in a more timely fashion. I still think the annual meeting has never been legally held, and the directors and officers legally elected. Perhaps your answers to the questions in this post will disabuse me of that belief, or perhaps not, depending on the answers.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Oh, Your signature should be on your application for membership which is on file in the NLA office.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's fine, if the membership application is intended to be the "signature card" referred to in the by-laws, which I think is stretching the concept of "card." Please tell me, in that case, how you keep the signature updated? For example, if a company's general manager (or one of two partners in a partnership) signs the membership application and over the years the general manager changes (or the partners seperate and one buys the other out), then how does the company up-date whose signature has to be on a proxy? Or does no company remain an NLA member long enough for the situation to arise?


[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 10-08-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Prove it. Send the NLA a certificate of insurance listing the License #'s & vin#'s of your cars. Not unusual. Exactly what a prospective member of the Board has to do.
Kay Hoskins<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm not a prospective member of the board, and I don't have to prove anything. Give John Beck at Krystal a call and ask him how many limousines and buses we bought from Krystal in the past year, and then call Acton and ask them how many sedans we bought. Please don't make a fool of yourself, Kay. When we pay our dues for 2001 they'll be paid based on the number of vehicles we're operating. Let's not play silly games - just answer the questions, and all of them.

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 10-08-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jhj:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Prove it. Send the NLA a certificate of insurance listing the License #'s & vin#'s of your cars. Not unusual. Exactly what a prospective member of the Board has to do.
Kay Hoskins<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm not a prospective member of the board, and I don't have to prove anything. Give John Beck at Krystal a call and ask him how many limousines and buses we bought from Krystal in the past year, and then call Acton and ask them how many sedans we bought. Please don't make a fool of yourself, Kay. When we pay our dues for 2001 they'll be paid based on the number of vehicles we're operating. Let's not play silly games - just answer the questions, and all of them.

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 10-08-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
*****************
Jim

What are your trying to hide? You know that a business contact like that would not devulge personal business information to another business. Kay is no fool. I see your're back to the old name calling tactics again.

Your questions are being answered. Now answer Kay's question, if you can.
John Sinibaldi
NLA

------------------

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jhj:
[b] [QUOTE][b]Prove it. Send the NLA a certificate of insurance listing the License #'s & vin#'s of your cars. Not unusual. Exactly what a prospective member of the Board has to do.
Kay Hoskins<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I'm not a prospective member of the board, and I don't have to prove anything. Give John Beck at Krystal a call and ask him how many limousines and buses we bought from Krystal in the past year, and then call Acton and ask them how many sedans we bought. Please don't make a fool of yourself, Kay. When we pay our dues for 2001 they'll be paid based on the number of vehicles we're operating. Let's not play silly games - just answer the questions, and all of them.
*****************
Jim

What are your trying to hide? You know that a business contact like that would not devulge personal business information to another business. Kay is no fool. I see your're back to the old name calling tactics again.

Your questions are being answered. Now answer Kay's question, if you can.
John Sinibaldi
NLA
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

John -
Nice try! NLA has "hid" all of its affairs from the members, and answers to questions we have been asking since July, and still has not given the responses YOU said you would give, so that we are headed to Court in D.C. to get access to the documents so that we can file suit to stop NLA from acting contrary to its by-laws and the D.C. Code. You and Kay should watch your legal liability. It's one thing to express opinions in these forums, but quite another to make "factual" misrepresentations about the capabilities of an operator. Have a brief chat with your lawyer before you respond to this message - the money will be well spent. Better yet, you better have a chat with NLA's lawyer, who might be better qualified to attend to the interests of the association. I see NLA directors are up to their tried and true techniques like you tried on Dean Schuler. You picked the wrong lunchbox, this time, John and Kay - I'll take you and NLA on at the drop of a hat if you try your usual shit with me or our company, and there won't be anything left of NLA but an empty office after the sheriff is done. Remember, you sign your posts as an "NLA Director," and Kay is responding as an NLA director. I note that this time you signed your post not even as a director, but "NLA." I'm tired of dealing here with the nitwit fringe of the NLA board of directors.


[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 10-09-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
I see your're back to the old name calling tactics again.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
John, are you as stupid as your posts? Go back to my post to Kay and reply to this message by posting the exact words which you claim are name-calling. Is English your second language?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>[/b]Prove it. Send the NLA a certificate of insurance listing the License #'s & vin#'s of your cars. Not unusual. Exactly what a prospective member of the Board has to do.
Kay Hoskins[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmmmmmmm - I have an even better idea, Kay - and you, too, Johnny. If Michael is agreeable, let's all put our money where out mouths are. If each of you will send $5,000 in Federal funds to Michael to hold, I'll send $10,000. After Michael says he has the funds, I'll provide you and Michael with vehicle registration documents (insurance certificates don't list vehicles, Kay), endorsements to our policy with Lancer listing vehicles, and license plate numbers for our fleet. If it's more than two as of today, Michael sends me all of the money. If it's two or less, Michael sends each of you one-half of all of the money. I will accept your money in full and complete settlement and release of you, your companies and NLA for the false statement and innuendo that our company has two cars. And if one of you nitwits thinks that we'll show "three" vehicles, let me make another suggestion. Instead of sending Michael $5,000, send $15,000 each. Then, I'll take your $5,000 each and for each vehicle that we operate over two, Michael will send me $1,000 of the $10,000 additional from each of you, or $2,000 per vehicle. Obviously, this is no risk to either of you if you even remotely believe what you said and are implying. Do you have the money to get into the game? I'm prepared to FedEx a check for $10,000 to Michael before 5:00 P.M. Eastern today. No play, no release from liability. Michael, will you hold the stakes? If not, I'll come up with another neutral stakeholder. By the way, no holding the checks - that's why I said Federal funds - the check has to clear the bank. By the way, if you don't have the funds, send Michael the stock to each of your companies along with a signed stock transfer power signed in blank. I'll accept that in lieu of the $5,000, and Michael will send me the stock certificates after he received evidence of the number of vehicles. That way it won't cost you anything to put your money where your mouth is. I might even let you work there for awhile after we end up owning your companies.
Michael, if your attorney is concerned that this is in some way a "wager," call to his attention that it is nothing more than a verification process to prove the false statements and settlement and release of the claims arising therefrom - not a wager at all.

TO JHJ,KAY, and anyone else involved in this forum,
I'm a very small company who is having a hard time in this business and I'm getting involved industry wise by joining local and national associations and becoming a board member in my local association. In my area we are currently dealing with some very serious issues that would put a company like me and a lot of others out of business. WHAT AM I TRYING TO GET AT!! Is it really necessary to cause all of this drama between each other and cause these wars of words? I recently talked to a company who is literally on the other side of the United States on the phone from Limos.com and they said that its sad to see how people are using these forums. There are a lot of important issues at hand that are very important to all of us. I have not heard one word about HR1689 which would I think be someting that all of us would be supporting and making sure that it follows through but instead I see a bunch of name calling and pointing of fingers. One thing that I seem to notice is that the companies that are well established and/or are large companies, do not seem to care about the issues of other people even though it could have a industry wide impact unless it was on their plate in front of them right now. I respect a lot of you in here because a lot of you are succesful and you must have done something right to get there. I also thank people like JHJ and others for feed back from the past that helped me out with certain aspects of my business but it seems that a lot of people are being drawn into this political show of words and its turning a lot of people away from these forums. Who wants to read through 5 pages af name calling. Anyways I thought I should voice myself because I think we are losing the point of these forums. They were made to help people and not call people names. Hopefully you will agree!!

[This message has been edited by nkokas (edited 10-09-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nkokas:
TO JHJ,KAY, and anyone else involved in this forum,
I'm a very small company who is having a hard time in this business and I'm getting involved industry wise by joining local and national associations and becoming a board member in my local association. In my area we are currently dealing with some very serious issues that would put a company like me and a lot of others out of business. WHAT AM I TRYING TO GET AT!! Is it really necessary to cause all of this drama between each other and cause these wars of words? I recently talked to a company who is literally on the other side of the United States on the phone from Limos.com and they said that its sad to see how people are using these forums. There are a lot of important issues at hand that are very important to all of us. I have not heard one word about HR1689 which would I think be someting that all of us would be supporting and making sure that it follows through but instead I see a bunch of name calling and pointing of fingers. One thing that I seem to notice is that the companies that are well established and/or are large companies, do not seem to care about the issues of other people even though it could have a industry wide impact unless it was on their plate in front of them right now. I respect a lot of you in here because a lot of you are succesful and you must have done something right to get there. I also thank people like JHJ and others for feed back from the past that helped me out with certain aspects of my business but it seems that a lot of people are being drawn into this political show of words and its turning a lot of people away from these forums. Who wants to read through 5 pages af name calling. Anyways I thought I should voice myself because I think we are losing the point of these forums. They were made to help people and not call people names. Hopefully you will agree!!

[This message has been edited by nkokas (edited 10-09-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thank you for your input to this forum. You are right, there are too many issues out there to deal with, rather than who has 2 or 3 vehicles. I am amazed that some on this forum have nothing better to do than to name call. I remember in grade school children did that and were punished for doing so. Some of the NLA directors did visit Michigan to help your association and also the president of your association was at our quarterly NLA meeting last week. It is difficult to stay in this business, more so in the first 5 years. I have been in business 11 years and do not rely on the weekend party crowd, but rather the corporate weekday work. If I or any member of the NLA can help answer any of your questions, please let us know.
As far as the name calling, I doubt that you can stop it. I hope it is not the wave of the future. Personally, I am bored with reading the name calling and would like to see more productive issues that would help a small operator run their company.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jhj:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Prove it. Send the NLA a certificate of insurance listing the License #'s & vin#'s of your cars. Not unusual. Exactly what a prospective membarer of the Board has to do.
Kay Hoskins[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmmmmmmm - I have an even better idea, Kay - and you, too, Johnny. Ifred654 Michael is agreeable, let's all put our money where out mouths are. If each of you will send $5,000 in Federal funds to Michael to hold, I'll send $10,000. After Michael says he has the funds, I'll provide you and Michael with vehicle registration documents (insurance certificates don't list vehicles, Kay), endorsements to our policy with Lancer listing vehicles, and license plate numbers for our fleet. If it's more than two as of today, Michael sends me all of the money. If it's two or less, Michael sends each of you one-half of all of the money. I will accept your money in full and complete settlement and release of you, your companies and NLA for the false statement and innuendo that our company has two cars. And if one of you nitwits thinks that we'll show "three" vehicles, let me make another suggestion. Instead of sending Michael $5,000, send $15,000 each. Then, I'll take your $5,000 each and for each vehicle that we operate over two, Michael will send me $1,000 of the $10,000 additional from each of you, or $2,000 per vehicle. Obviously, this is no risk to either of you if you even remotely believe what you said and are implying. Do you have the money to get into the game? I'm prepared to FedEx a check for $10,000 to Michael before 5:00 P.M. Eastern today. No play, no release from liability. Michael, will you hold the stakes? If not, I'll come up with another neutral stakeholder. By the way, no holding the checks - that's why I said Federal funds - the check has to clear the bank. By the way, if you don't have the funds, send Michael the stock to each of your companies along with a signed stock transfer power signed in blank. I'll accept that in lieu of the $5,000, and Michael will send me the stock certificates after he received evidence of the number of vehicles. That way it won't cost you anything to put your money where your mouth is. I might even let you work there for awhile after we end up owning your companies.
Michael, if your attorney is concerned that this is in some way a "wager," call to his attention that it is nothing more than a verification process to prove the false statements and settlement and release of the claims arising therefrom - not a wager at all.[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Jim

You don't make any sense. What the heck are you talking about now. I don't know anything about your company, nor do I care. My name is John not Johnny. Stick to issues that help other operators. Your long tirades are are getting old and boring.
John Sinibaldi
NLA Board Member

------------------

Carolyn THANKS for the response. I sent you an e-mail explaiing the mix up with the NLA's involvement with our problem in Michigan and I made the correction. I want everybody to know that the NLA IS working with us to defeat this bill in Michigan. Also I'm glad you agree with me that the game in this forum is getting out of control. Thanks for you input and hopefully all our operators in Michigan will get a chance to meet with you or speak with you to discuss REAL issues.

By the way what does Limos.com think about how people are using this forum. I know everyone has a right to say what they want but don't you feel that if people from the outside as a customer looking in would see this as a negative thing towards the industry.

Yes. This is really beyond being helpful. Every post is along the same “pissing contest” theme and contrary to what the principle offenders think is of no importance or significance to the forum as a whole, IMHO. I would dare suggest that the aware consumer who may weigh on the behavior of these people would know whom NOT to use for their chauffeured transportation needs, just like other companys now know who NOT to refer customers to. It’s hard to believe these are adults. Haven’t you noticed how the number of active participants has declined? Do you really believe this is the crap people want to wade through? Do you really think that this crap builds a customers confidence in your ability? Or in the limousine industry? All those same old questions about wanting to start a limo business don’t seem as bad compared to this.

Administrator/Moderator: What has become of this forum? Is there any hope of getting back to good helpful information and discussion? And get all these political/personal attacks out? Or maybe if they could have their own subject area with a disclaimer.

And please, don’t dilute my opinions simply because I wish to remain anonymous. I haven’t the desire or the time to receive harassing emails or telephone calls.

Anonymous

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Anonymous:
Yes. This is really beyond being helpful. Every post is along the same “pissing contest” theme and contrary to what the principle offenders think is of no importance or significance to the forum as a whole, IMHO. I would dare suggest that the aware consumer who may weigh on the behavior of these people would know whom NOT to use for their chauffeured transportation needs, just like other companys now know who NOT to refer customers to. It’s hard to believe these are adults. Haven’t you noticed how the number of active participants has declined? Do you really believe this is the crap people want to wade through? Do you really think that this crap builds a customers confidence in your ability? Or in the limousine industry? All those same old questions about wanting to start a limo business don’t seem as bad compared to this.

Administrator/Moderator: What has become of this forum? Is there any hope of getting back to good helpful information and discussion? And get all these political/personal attacks out? Or maybe if they could have their own subject area with a disclaimer.

And please, don’t dilute my opinions simply because I wish to remain anonymous. I haven’t the desire or the time to receive harassing emails or telephone calls.

Anonymous <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great post. I hope the forum will improve. If I can be of help, please contact me.
Thanks
John Sinibaldi
NLA Board Member

------------------

To all,

This forum does have its "Rules of the Road" which people must agree to when registering.

I am not happy with the *pissing matches* that have occurred. The purpose of this Forum is to discuss, resolve problems, and share ideas.

Perhaps the quality of the dialogue has suffered because the answers originally posed have not been adequately answered. Instead, his business has been attacked which have resulted in more "attacks" -- hence starts the vicious circle.

I loathe the day where I have to throw the Forum into Moderated mode where all posts will be edited by the administrator to yield only FACTUAL questions and answers.

Please. That was not the purpose. Once again, the purpose of this Forum is to discuss, resolve problems, and share ideas. Outside of a few threads, its purpose is being served.

Sadly, when the verbal attacks between parties continues, it creates an environment where NO ONE wants to respond.

The bottomline is, no one wants to be told they are "idiots" or "liars" irrespective of whether it is true or not.

I was hoping both sides would stick to the facts and non-threatening opinions.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Michael will send me $1,000 of the $10,000 additional from each of you, or $2,000 per vehicle. Obviously, this is no risk to either of you if you even remotely believe what you said and are implying. Do you have the money to get into the game? I'm prepared to FedEx a check for $10,000 to Michael before 5:00 P.M. Eastern today. No play, no release from liability. Michael, will you hold the stakes? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jim,

I am sorry to report that being a escrow conduit is not in my future! I'd have to quit my job and sell the company to administer that!

http://limos.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Michael

[This message has been edited by XENEFOX Media Corporation (edited 10-09-2000).]

[This message has been edited by XENEFOX Media Corporation (edited 10-09-2000).]

Michael you are right, the name calling and all that stuff needs to stop.

Kay, you make a very good point and I believe I have said it before, many companies join associations just to be part of something, but really do very little to help. We go throw the same thing on the local front, it always seems to be the same 3-5 people that do it all, and we do ask for help.
As far as the ITLA stopping 1689, it was alot because of section 2, the same reason Florida balked. Section 2 as discussed with the attorney and Barry on a local conference call, it was determined that if there was NO license required in ones home base it would then allow that person into a regulated area. The example that was used was St Pete (No License) Tampa license, it would then allow that none regulated company to pick up in Tampa according to section 2. This is not what we or anybody wanted and not what was told to us from your powers that be. The ITLA is not the total bad guys anybody makes them out to be, they do what the members ask of them, just like we asked them to get back with the NLA and get the 1689 thing done for the sake of our members on state borders. There was nothing wrong with the two working together, they did and made progress. If it wasn't for the dual membership companies and the Limousine committee they started, they would have fought it for ever. The ITLA is mostly Taxi companies, but they do listen to the limousine people also, it is an organization that the NLA should continue to work with.

Have to agree - stop the name calling, the posturing and the threats.

At the start of this forum, JHJ raised some very serious issues. To date, most have not been answered. John S. stated repeatedly that he would get the answers, to date he has responded with nothing. Kay finally did reply after silence for several months with information but it also turned ugly. JHJ - "chill out", every time you go off on some trivial statement (like how many cars you own)your credibility is injured.

JHJ's comments and questions cannot be swept under the rug - the NLA has to provide answers. Being involved in local associations, I know that things happen. By-laws are not specifically followed, decisions are made that sometimes are in conflict with what is stated in the by-laws. The NLA should admit its mistakes, discuss the open issues, make corrections and move on to important industry items.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Anonymous:
Yes. This is really beyond being helpful. Every post is along the same “pissing contest” theme and contrary to what the principle offenders think is of no importance or significance to the forum as a whole, IMHO. I would dare suggest that the aware consumer who may weigh on the behavior of these people would know whom NOT to use for their chauffeured transportation needs, just like other companys now know who NOT to refer customers to. It’s hard to believe these are adults. Haven’t you noticed how the number of active participants has declined? Do you really believe this is the crap people want to wade through? Do you really think that this crap builds a customers confidence in your ability? Or in the limousine industry? All those same old questions about wanting to start a limo business don’t seem as bad compared to this.

Administrator/Moderator: What has become of this forum? Is there any hope of getting back to good helpful information and discussion? And get all these political/personal attacks out? Or maybe if they could have their own subject area with a disclaimer.

And please, don’t dilute my opinions simply because I wish to remain anonymous. I haven’t the desire or the time to receive harassing emails or telephone calls.

Anonymous <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dear Anonymous:

This forum is the best thing that ever happened to the limousine industry. Even if the forum occasionally goes off track, this forum and its "pissing contests" have provided more information and hopefully made more limousine operators think than any other
source.

In 10 years in this business, this is the first and only place where issues that were directly affecting my business could be discussed openly and freely in front of the industry and have an impact. It is the only place where if I felt that something was wrong or misinformation was being disseminated, I could speak up and be heard. If you read the trade magazines (LCT and Limo Digest)and the NLA publications everything is always "rosy". Life is good in the limousine business, no one rocks the boat, I stroke your back, you stroke mine. This forum has finally provided a place to discuss what is really going on in the industry. Until this forum was established, no mechanism existed to discuss issues on a national basis. You didn't know if you were the only person shouting in the forest when something was done by the NLA that affected you directly (certification for example) or when you thought something was wrong.

As a direct result of these forums, issues have come to light, problems have been resolved and most importantly information and opinions have been made available to the limousine operators as a whole so that hopefully they can form their own opinions.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hesch (from Florida):
Have to agree - stop the name calling, the posturing and the threats.

At the start of this forum, JHJ raised some very serious issues. To date, most have not been answered. John S. stated repeatedly that he would get the answers, to date he has responded with nothing. Kay finally did reply after silence for several months with information but it also turned ugly. JHJ - "chill out", every time you go off on some trivial statement (like how many cars you own)your credibility is injured.

JHJ's comments and questions cannot be swept under the rug - the NLA has to provide answers. Being involved in local associations, I know that things happen. By-laws are not specifically followed, decisions are made that sometimes are in conflict with what is stated in the by-laws. The NLA should admit its mistakes, discuss the open issues, make corrections and move on to important industry items.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*****************
Hesch

Thanks for your comments. To a point you are right. However the questions posted on this forum will be answered. I have asked other NLA Board members to post responses to the questions asked on this forum. Carolyn and Kay and Ron Scoci are just a few examples. I was elected to the board last January, many of the questions posted on this forum were not in my area, example: nomination committee.

My specialty is Vendor Liason: I help members that have problems with other NLA members or Vendors. I have been able to help many members. The other area is the certification program. Not an easy task given the fact of the many concerns that have been brought up during these posts and the Chicago meeting. But I was elected to serve. I am commited to the end.

During are NLA Board meeting in New Orleans, the concerns posted by JHJ were discussed. I can tell you that a full detailed response will be coming very soon and will be made public not just to Jim.

As for the future of this forum, I will stay in touch, If I can answer a question directly I will or I will refer the question to another board member who is qualified to answer the question.

I have been asked by Michael to host some forum topics. I will be posting them in the future. Again, thanks for comments without the name calling or insulting remarks.

John Sinbaldi
NLA Board Member

------------------

If you are an NLA member you should have received by fax a memo from Darryl Norman advising that the deadline for submitting applications to run for NLA director has been extended to midnight, October 20, 2000. The reason, according to Norman, is that there are an abundance of applications from members in the "East," but a shortage from the "Central" and "West" regions. This was confirmed by a phone conversation I had with Cory Rozen (NLA director and chair of the Nominating Committee). Please think about this! The NLA by-laws do not set up "regions" for directors to run from. The qualifications for director are clearly set forth in the by-laws, and it doesn't include where you live, work or play. The Nominating Committee is on a frolic of its own by imposing requirements that don't exist, and they are EXCLUDING GOOD PEOPLE from the "East" who want to run and want to participate so that they an put "anybody" who wants to run from the Central and West on the ballot. This is the kind of crap that is either going to stop voluntarily, or I'm going to stop it. Our company is going to go to court to challenge the NLA election of directors for 2001 on several grounds, two of which are: (1) the Nominating Committee has excluded people from the ballot because of where they live; and (2) there must be an annual meeting of the members where the ballots are opened and counted and the results tablulated and announced. Look at Article 5, Section E, of the By-Laws which gives the agenda for the annual meeting of the members. This agenda, at item 9, calls for "election of Officers and Directors." The board seems to think that just because the by-laws provide that "balloting for the election of directors shall be done by mail," that means that the ballots don't have to be opened and tabulated at a lawfully called and convened meeting of the members. But this is just another little nicety that the directors, staff and Host have ignored and are probably going to continue to ignore for the 2001 elections. It's time to STOP this rogue organization and bring it to justice. The by-laws were intended to give at least a little bit of democracy and power to the members, but that power has been hijacked by the directors, NLA staff and Host. Since it really isn't hard to run a trade association within the structure set up by its by-laws, one really has to wonder why NLA is fighting so hard not to. Do you wonder, too?

Hesch we are not saying that the forums are a bad thing. I'm just saying that this particular post went out of control. We can all admit that this post has achieved nothing but upset people by calling them names. I'm gald I was the first one to say something about it because I think we are finally starting to see REAL discussions about REAL issues now. I personally feel that JHJ finally put a post up that is valid and is important since his first post that he initiated this discussion with. We have also heard that the NLA will post something in the near future in regards to his questions. THIS IS WHAT THE FORUMS ARE ALL ABOUT. REAL questions and REAL answers. I just can't believe that a little guy like me can change the way this particular post is going and I feel that it's going for the better. I think we need to be able to work together even if we disagree with certain issues in order to achieve anything. So now that we have stopped the name calling lets get back to business.

[This message has been edited by nkokas (edited 10-10-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
During are NLA Board meeting in New Orleans, the concerns posted by JHJ were discussed. I can tell you that a full detailed response will be coming very soon and will be made public not just to Jim.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
These folks at NLA are very "time-challenged," to say the least. We've been waiting for "answers" since the first week of August. When John says they are going to be answered, remember this is coming from the guy who has been saying that since the last week of August and who also said that the NLA web site would be up and operating in 24-48 hours, and that was a week ago. NLA directors should hold their breath for 15 seconds, counted using the same clock and calendar they use for all their other promises.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jhj:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
During are NLA Board meeting in New Orleans, the concerns posted by JHJ were discussed. I can tell you that a full detailed response will be coming very soon and will be made public not just to Jim.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
These folks at NLA are very "time-challenged," to say the least. We've been waiting for "answers" since the first week of August. When John says they are going to be answered, remember this is coming from the guy who has been saying that since the last week of August and who also said that the NLA web site would be up and operating in 24-48 hours, and that was a week ago. NLA directors should hold their breath for 15 seconds, counted using the same clock and calendar they use for all their other promises.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>*****************************************

We were told in New Orleans that the web site would be up in 24-48 hours. I called the NLA office this morning to inquire about the status of the page. I was told by Linda Boulin "The attorney has not given the green light" this has something to do with the disclaimer notice. I will continue to following up on the status.

The other questions will follow. Unfortunately I don't control the time table of attorneys or other Board members. However, I will continue to speak up to speed on the process.

John Sinibaldi
NLA Board Member

------------------

Regardless whether the questions have been answered or not, I want to thank John for sticking around and keeping us posted that the issues raised are "being discussed".
THAT IS THE WHOLE PURPOSE TO THIS FORUM! Discussion!

That is better than nothing. The issues are being discussed which is the impetus for change. This is a start.

If each side can remain civil, the answers and/or resolutions will be more forthcoming.

Michael

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jhj:
If you are an NLA member you should have received by fax a memo from Darryl Norman advising that the deadline for submitting applications to run for NLA director has been extended to midnight, October 20, 2000. The reason, according to Norman, is that there are an abundance of applications from members in the "East," but a shortage from the "Central" and "West" regions. This was confirmed by a phone conversation I had with Cory Rozen (NLA director and chair of the Nominating Committee). Please think about this! The NLA by-laws do not set up "regions" for directors to run from. The qualifications for director are clearly set forth in the by-laws, and it doesn't include where you live, work or play. The Nominating Committee is on a frolic of its own by imposing requirements that don't exist, and they are EXCLUDING GOOD PEOPLE from the "East" who want to run and want to participate so that they an put "anybody" who wants to run from the Central and West on the ballot. This is the kind of crap that is either going to stop voluntarily, or I'm going to stop it. Our company is going to go to court to challenge the NLA election of directors for 2001 on several grounds, two of which are: (1) the Nominating Committee has excluded people from the ballot because of where they live; and (2) there must be an annual meeting of the members where the ballots are opened and counted and the results tablulated and announced. Look at Article 5, Section E, of the By-Laws which gives the agenda for the annual meeting of the members. This agenda, at item 9, calls for "election of Officers and Directors." The board seems to think that just because the by-laws provide that "balloting for the election of directors shall be done by mail," that means that the ballots don't have to be opened and tabulated at a lawfully called and convened meeting of the members. But this is just another little nicety that the directors, staff and Host have ignored and are probably going to continue to ignore for the 2001 elections. It's time to STOP this rogue organization and bring it to justice. The by-laws were intended to give at least a little bit of democracy and power to the members, but that power has been hijacked by the directors, NLA staff and Host. Since it really isn't hard to run a trade association within the structure set up by its by-laws, one really has to wonder why NLA is fighting so hard not to. Do you wonder, too? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
************************

Jim
The board understands the need to follow the by-laws.The NLA's attorney is doing a complete review of the current by-laws and will make his recomendation to the board. The white paper will be made public.

There are people running from the East.As a National Association,it would be nice to have the entire country represented by regions. In my opinion,our association would not address all needs if the board was made up of people just from the East. Do you agree?

------------------

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
There are people running from the East.As a National Association,it would be nice to have the entire country represented by regions. In my opinion,our association would not address all needs if the board was made up of people just from the East. Do you agree?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You miss the point, John. The fact that you think the NLA board should be regionally balanced does not give you (or anyone) the right to make it so. The by-laws do not permit exclusion from the ballot on the basis of geography. Whether it should or shouldn't is a matter for debate, not arbitrary action by a few people who maintain a choke hold on access to the board. Personally, I think the best people should he elected, and I share Tom Mazza's view (which he is apparently going to publish in December) that no one should be excluded from the ballot for any reason except basic qualifications. The "East" has far more limousine companies, so why should it be under-represented on the NLA board? Like Tom said, you should be able to throw your hat in the ring and run and let the members decide. This Nominating Committee is going to do nothing except end up costing NLA a bunch of money in lawyers' fees, and end up doing the election all over again - so they might as well get it right the first time around - unless, of course, they want me "to take my best shot," to coin a phrase.

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 10-10-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
There are people running from the East.As a National Association,it would be nice to have the entire country represented by regions. In my opinion,our association would not address all needs if the board was made up of people just from the East. Do you agree?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Let's open this discussion for debate and see what happens. My view is that the NLA board is not a legislative body that makes laws or rules which involves "representing" the interests of constituents. It is a "governing" or "management" body. If we start slicing and dicing the NLA board to reflect the "needs" of members, then we should also recognize the "needs" or big and small companies, those which do black car corporate work versus those that do weddings and nights out, and those which use Lincolns versus Cadillacs, and on and on. Isn't it more important to have good people to chose from who want to actively participate than some imaginary geographic interests to be served? Can we hear from some of lurkers out there on this subject - it goes to the very guts of who's running the NLA and how it might be run in the future.

By the way, I'd like to address the comment that the NLA attorneys are doing a complete review of the by-laws. I've practiced corporate law for 30 years and by-laws are not the exclusive function of lawyers. By-laws must reflect the basic values of an organization and how the members want it run. Attorneys do not "tell" members how to run their association, they merely recommend the manner in which by-laws can reflect the values of the members. Also, the NLA by-laws can be amended by EITHER the board OR the members. I would like to think that if some significant changes are going to be made, that it will be submitted to the "members" rather than a small group of insiders whose motives are already in substantial question. As some of you know, there is a project underway by some members to propose a new set of by-laws and proxies will probably be solicited from members to, either at the non-existent annual meeting or a special meeting, make some fundamental changes in the government of NLA. Looks like the NLA board wants to head off that effort by paying someone to do a "white paper." This should get interesting. The question is, will NLA directors choke off debate over what the government of NLA should look like by orchestrating their own effort? Will the "white paper" be a "whitewash?" Stay tuned.


[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 10-10-2000).]

Jim is right!! I did write a column for December magazine which contains my views on the NLA election procedures.

I want to take a second to respond to the person who grouped my magazine with Limo Digest and said that we both "always" painted a rosy picture of the business.

Please read LCT and my stuff in particular. I don't think that is a fair comment. I believe LCT is substantially different than our competitor. And I can point to lots of critical articles "Limousine Industry is Not a Perfect E Commerce Fit", October LCT my column, not exactly "rosy" Articles on Odometer Fraud, the danger of tired chauffeurs, financing horror stories, the terrible licensing situation in Las Vegas. These are not "rosy" stories.

Finally, I don't participate in Forum when it goes negative but I want to make a comment concerning Kay Hoskins. I have known her for five years and have used her as a source for stories. I found her to be an extremely bright person who cares about the business. I have given new operators her number to call for advice and she has been very helpful. She is making a positive contribution to the business and I felt very badly that people who don't know her are being critical.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tom mazza:
Finally, I don't participate in Forum when it goes negative but I want to make a comment concerning Kay Hoskins. I have known her for five years and have used her as a source for stories. I found her to be an extremely bright person who cares about the business. I have given new operators her number to call for advice and she has been very helpful. She is making a positive contribution to the business and I felt very badly that people who don't know her are being critical.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Tom, I don't question your personal judgment of Kay, however, my only contact with her has been in this topic and I cannot reach the same conclusion. She made a totally false representation about the number of vehicles our company has, and then, when I corrected her, taunted me to "prove" what I was saying which, of course, is an insinuation that I was lying (Sinibaldi, of course, chirped in and then clammed up also when told to put his money where his mouth is). This is the stuff of Joseph McCarthy. Then, of course, when I throw down the gauntlet, she feigns insult and disappears. She says she is compelled to respond to some of the issues raised, then gives some off-the-wall and unsupported conclusory statements, and when probed on her responses, she clams up because it is obvious she doesn't know what she's talking about. To my mind, she is altogether typical of what I have seen of the NLA directors who I have had contact with - they attack through innuendo and use various nefarious techniques to deflect the issue away from their personal accountability and performance as NLA directors. So far we have seen this from every director who has popped up in these forums. I understand there may be some exceptions, but I haven't seen them - and it also seems that the good people end up resigning from the board (I hear there may be one or more resignations in the works as we speak, and if this information is true, it is regrettable, because at least one of them had excellent potential as a director).
Please go back to the very first posts in this forum which raised serious questions, and look at the tone that I attempted to set. Then scroll forward and see how there was virtually no meaningful responses by NLA directors (or anyone else for that matter), and then look closely and see where the ad hominem attacks came from - all from NLA insiders. When the forum goes "negative," it comes as a result of NLA insiders using their tried and true techniques that I've pointed out every time they use them. Look at Michael's post earlier today - he got it right - serious issues have been raised, no answers or responses, and then personal attacks on me. It doesn't bother me one bit - I've fought far bigger battles with far more powerful opponents - but I think the record ought to get straight where these negative tangents start.

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 10-10-2000).]

First off lets not go back to the bickering. JHJ I also agree with you that the equal reps from different geography locals really doesn't matter. If you were to go by something like that, then you might as well go by numbers. There are far more companies east of the Mississippi than there are west of it. Therefore you should have more reps. from the east coast. But who cares whether or not your from the east or west if you are competant and you are striving for the same goals on a National level. Also Mr. Mazza have you noticed the post on the Detroit issue and if you have can you comment on it. It is under the announcements forum. Do you have any suggestions or avenues that might help us in our fight for our right to do business in the city of Detroit.

Tommy:

Don't get so defensive. My statement that in reading the trade magazines through the years a "rosey" picture was presented was not directed to the type of articles you mentioned. My comment was directed more to the impression that the magazines always seemed to stay away from controversial issues that affected the NLA. For example, after the Certification Program was first presented
issues and concerns were being raised by operators but nothing ever appeared in the magazines. On this and other issues that the NLA was working on, the magazines always supported the NLA party line and never seemed to present the other side of the story.

Another example, (this is aimed more at Limo Digest) was the fact that they continually published articles and news releases on a for profit corporation that was presenting itself as a limousine association. This not only legitimatized this corporation as an association but provided misleading information to the industry. Repeated requests to verify their information were ignored and "rosey" pictures of this association continued to be published. Hopefully this will change based upon the recent NLA association by-law changes.

I know that trade magazines are by nature intended to support the industry that they are writing about. I only hope that in the future more articles are written that present what is really going within the industry and that both sides of some of the more controversial issues are put forth.

I look forward to your articles and know that you will be wading in on some of the issues that have arisen in these forums.

The more I read some of this stuff the more I wonder if I've been offensive with two of my previous posts. If so, please accept my apology. The two topics are as follow:

1. I've been reading this forum, subscribed to LCT and LD for almost a year, etc. and I still have neither driven or bought a limo. It's not a matter of whether I can afford one but rather I figure I'll have a better chance of succeeding if I know more about the business instead of just jumping into it. For this reason, I made a few statements about how people should show that they have made some effort to get information besides getting onto this forum with the question "how do I get into the limo business?" as their starting point. No offense, but I still feel that one must do a little homework so that they can ask more specific questions when they come to the forum.

2. I voiced my agreement with Karl that people should be more attentive (not perfect) to elements such as spelling, punctuation, grammar, etc. when posting so that their thoughts are clearly conveyed to the reader. I certainly did not intend this as an insult to someone with marginal writing skills and actually suggested having someone else do it for you if and when possible. One person may need help with their writing as I most certainly need a mechanic to keep my van running.

Unfortunately, we can hide behind email and say things (good or bad) to or about another whom we may not even know. That fact alone has shown up in many online forums. Other than the name calling and insults I like this forum. I also like LCT and LD. I get at least one piece of valuable information from this forum a minimum of once per week. I also get at least one piece of valuable information in each issue of LCT and LD. I plan to attend the limo show in Atlantic City again next month too.

I plan to start driving part-time within the next few weeks and if I like that enough I'll probably get my first limo by the spring. While success won't be guaranteed, I think I'll do pretty good, especially in competing for business with operators who don't want to
put forth much effort. Good luck to all.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by vtlipscomb:
The more I read some of this stuff the more I wonder if I've been offensive with two of my previous posts. If so, please accept my apology. The two topics are as follow:

1. I've been reading this forum, subscribed to LCT and LD for almost a year, etc. and I still have neither driven or bought a limo. It's not a matter of whether I can afford one but rather I figure I'll have a better chance of succeeding if I know more about the business instead of just jumping into it. For this reason, I made a few statements about how people should show that they have made some effort to get information besides getting onto this forum with the question "how do I get into the limo business?" as their starting point. No offense, but I still feel that one must do a little homework so that they can ask more specific questions when they come to the forum.

2. I voiced my agreement with Karl that people should be more attentive (not perfect) to elements such as spelling, punctuation, grammar, etc. when posting so that their thoughts are clearly conveyed to the reader. I certainly did not intend this as an insult to someone with marginal writing skills and actually suggested having someone else do it for you if and when possible. One person may need help with their writing as I most certainly need a mechanic to keep my van running.

Unfortunately, we can hide behind email and say things (good or bad) to or about another whom we may not even know. That fact alone has shown up in many online forums. Other than the name calling and insults I like this forum. I also like LCT and LD. I get at least one piece of valuable information from this forum a minimum of once per week. I also get at least one piece of valuable information in each issue of LCT and LD. I plan to attend the limo show in Atlantic City again next month too.

I plan to start driving part-time within the next few weeks and if I like that enough I'll probably get my first limo by the spring. While success won't be guaranteed, I think I'll do pretty good, especially in competing for business with operators who don't want to
put forth much effort. Good luck to all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In response to opening a company, I would suggest talking with Tom Mazza who wrote 2 excellent books that I wish were available when I opened my company in 1990. There is an Association in Washington, DC which you may consider joining, also. Good Luck with opening your company.
Carolyn

If you need some help with a Detroit issue, you should contact one of the ITLA reps, you will get nowhere with the NLA. I quit them when they started with the stars in there membership directory with that bogus certification program.
I believe I am ready to join the ITLA, done more for members and for longer.

Mr Mazza, I no longer belong to the NLA since that certification garbage started, I also got 7 of my friends to give up their membership.
Mr Hesch stated something before I could, I do not remember any stories in your magazine about complaints on that certification program and how many companies did not like it, I know you had as much information as LD received. They at least had the nads to write about it. Did your pen run out of ink or would they not let anybody print the truth at LCT.
LD is not by far off the hook as they write about things that are slighly off base, at least they now are doing something to correct their problem.
I know its all a money thing and sales dollars, because if they wrote about the complaints on coachbuilders and leasing companies, who would advertise.
The water is muddy in the east and west!!!!

Jersey Jet,
My phone # is 215-914-1448 first off.

I think your criticism that LCT did not write about the criticsm that the Certification program generated is valid. Initially, we encouraged Greg Casteel to pursue the program and get it up and running. I felt it was unfair to encourage the success of the program then to immediately criticize the effort.

As I said before in the forum, if I had to do it over again, I would have written about the discontent with the program 6 months ago.

I think you are misinformed as to the "stand" that LD took. There was 1 editorial in LD that never mentioned the critics of the program by name. It was an oddly veiled commentary that was far from "hard hitting criticism."

I am willing to take criticism and i am accessible to any reader of the magazine but I would appreciate a name next time you criticize me.

Tom Mazza

Jim,
Your point is taken and I did review the posts. I'm uncomfortable with the "put up or shut up." I don't care about your fleet.

I think its unfair that you have decided its a responsibility of NLA Board members to immediately respond to questions or else. If I am an entrepreneur who happens to serve on the Board, am I obligated to drop everything when you raise a question?

John Sinibaldi is a new Board Member who has unfortunately become the spokesman for the Board and because of the fact he has not been a part of the recent history (last 3 years), he is unfairly put on the defensive. I like John but your forcing him to ask questions he cant possibly answer.

And by the way, please stop the "Johnny" reference, lets treat each other with respect at all times.

Guy, your right I am sensitive about LCT, are you sensitive to criticism of Paradise Limousine? Of course you are. This isn't make pretend, I earn a nice living for this, its not the rotary club.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tom mazza:
I think its unfair that you have decided its a responsibility of NLA Board members to immediately respond to questions or else. If I am an entrepreneur who happens to serve on the Board, am I obligated to drop everything when you raise a question?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Of course not. It's unfair to demand that a board member who never frequents these forums to respond at all (although we know that a number do, some of which don't reveal their presence). It's not unfair to ask a board member who appears here and participates to respond, and two months is more than adequate time to find the time away from day-to-day business to respond. It's also fair to demand a response when a director says he is going to respond, and then finesses the issue or doesn't respond at all. I could give specific references to posts of willingness to respond, and of non-responsiveness, but we're way beyong these forum issues right now. My demand letter is the hands of legal counsel, we've exchanged letters, and something is or is not going to happen very shortly. Assuming that John is to be believed, there may be an effort going on within NLA to deal with the issues I and others have raised. I think this thing is playing out as we speak, so there's nothing to be gained by beating it over and over and over again at this point, unless someone wants to engage on a particular issue. Note that I have not been agressively pursuing responses in these forums now that we have moved into a "legal" mode.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>John Sinibaldi is a new Board Member who has unfortunately become the spokesman for the Board and because of the fact he has not been a part of the recent history (last 3 years), he is unfairly put on the defensive. I like John but your forcing him to ask questions he cant possibly answer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
True, in part. But he has "access" to the answers, and he undertook to provide answers. Your use of the adverb "unfortunately" is interesting because it can be construed two ways. One way is that John, because of passivity by other directors, was unfortunately left as the Lone Ranger. The other is that it is unfortunate that he is a poor spokesman, which is true only in that he has been hung out to dry. I don't think John fully appreciated the politics of the NLA board, and also when he first became defensive that I was accurate in my challenges to what NLA is doing. I think John is starting to figure things out, but we'll see.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Guy, your right I am sensitive about LCT, are you sensitive to criticism of Paradise Limousine? Of course you are. This isn't make pretend, I earn a nice living for this, its not the rotary club.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just as I am sensitive to an overt misrepresentation by an NLA director as to our fleet size. When you've got close to a million dollars tied up in new vehicles, suggesting that you have two vehicles curdles one's milk, shall I say.

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 10-12-2000).]

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 10-12-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jhj:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
There are people running from the East.As a National Association,it would be nice to have the entire country represented by regions. In my opinion,our association would not address all needs if the board was made up of people just from the East. Do you agree?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Let's open this discussion for debate and see what happens. My view is that the NLA board is not a legislative body that makes laws or rules which involves "representing" the interests of constituents. It is a "governing" or "management" body. If we start slicing and dicing the NLA board to reflect the "needs" of members, then we should also recognize the "needs" or big and small companies, those which do black car corporate work versus those that do weddings and nights out, and those which use Lincolns versus Cadillacs, and on and on. Isn't it more important to have good people to chose from who want to actively participate than some imaginary geographic interests to be served? Can we hear from some of lurkers out there on this subject - it goes to the very guts of who's running the NLA and how it might be run in the future.

By the way, I'd like to address the comment that the NLA attorneys are doing a complete review of the by-laws. I've practiced corporate law for 30 years and by-laws are not the exclusive function of lawyers. By-laws must reflect the basic values of an organization and how the members want it run. Attorneys do not "tell" members how to run their association, they merely recommend the manner in which by-laws can reflect the values of the members. Also, the NLA by-laws can be amended by EITHER the board OR the members. I would like to think that if some significant changes are going to be made, that it will be submitted to the "members" rather than a small group of insiders whose motives are already in substantial question. As some of you know, there is a project underway by some members to propose a new set of by-laws and proxies will probably be solicited from members to, either at the non-existent annual meeting or a special meeting, make some fundamental changes in the government of NLA. Looks like the NLA board wants to head off that effort by paying someone to do a "white paper." This should get interesting. The question is, will NLA directors choke off debate over what the government of NLA should look like by orchestrating their own effort? Will the "white paper" be a "whitewash?" Stay tuned.


[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 10-10-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
***************************
Jim

I pledge as a board member that if changes are proposed for the by-laws after the review from the attorney, I would strongly support that the changes be brought forward to the NLA membership for a vote. If by-laws have not be followed, now is the time to come into compliance.

As far as the nominations from different regions. I support a diverse representation on the board from different areas of the country. I would not want Congress to only represent the needs of the West by a bunch of representatives that live in New York or Jersey. However, if it should come to past that through a vote, regions don't matter I will live with it. It's to early for me to think about running for a second term, but if I did and lost out to someone from the East. It's ok. I have enough on my plate, just running my company. However, I wanted to be on the board to help serve in our industry. If by-laws on meetings have not been legally held, now is the time to come into compliance. I don't agree with you that there is some sinister group trying to push their agenda through without the membership knowning about it. If this is true, well I guess I am really in the dark, but not for long. It's not going to happen. We have to many good people on this board.

John Sinbaldi
NLA Board Member

------------------


[This message has been edited by fivestaroregon (edited 10-12-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jhj:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tom mazza:
I think its unfair that you have decided its a responsibility of NLA Board members to immediately respond to questions or else. If I am an entrepreneur who happens to serve on the Board, am I obligated to drop everything when you raise a question?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Of course not. It's unfair to demand that a board member who never frequents these forums to respond at all (although we know that a number do, some of which don't reveal their presence). It's not unfair to ask a board member who appears here and participates to respond, and two months is more than adequate time to find the time away from day-to-day business to respond. It's also fair to demand a response when a director says he is going to respond, and then finesses the issue or doesn't respond at all. I could give specific references to posts of willingness to respond, and of non-responsiveness, but we're way beyong these forum issues right now. My demand letter is the hands of legal counsel, we've exchanged letters, and something is or is not going to happen very shortly. Assuming that John is to be believed, there may be an effort going on within NLA to deal with the issues I and others have raised. I think this thing is playing out as we speak, so there's nothing to be gained by beating it over and over and over again at this point, unless someone wants to engage on a particular issue. Note that I have not been agressively pursuing responses in these forums now that we have moved into a "legal" mode.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>John Sinibaldi is a new Board Member who has unfortunately become the spokesman for the Board and because of the fact he has not been a part of the recent history (last 3 years), he is unfairly put on the defensive. I like John but your forcing him to ask questions he cant possibly answer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
True, in part. But he has "access" to the answers, and he undertook to provide answers. Your use of the adverb "unfortunately" is interesting because it can be construed two ways. One way is that John, because of passivity by other directors, was unfortunately left as the Lone Ranger. The other is that it is unfortunate that he is a poor spokesman, which is true only in that he has been hung out to dry. I don't think John fully appreciated the politics of the NLA board, and also when he first became defensive that I was accurate in my challenges to what NLA is doing. I think John is starting to figure things out, but we'll see.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Guy, your right I am sensitive about LCT, are you sensitive to criticism of Paradise Limousine? Of course you are. This isn't make pretend, I earn a nice living for this, its not the rotary club.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just as I am sensitive to an overt misrepresentation by an NLA director as to our fleet size. When you've got close to a million dollars tied up in new vehicles, suggesting that you have two vehicles curdles one's milk, shall I say.

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 10-12-2000).]

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 10-12-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

******************
Jim

I would call my past performance on the forum as "Baptistism By Fire". It certainly has gotten me to look at things differently.
John Sinibaldi
NLA Board Member

------------------


[This message has been edited by fivestaroregon (edited 10-12-2000).]

Tom you explanation is fine.
Thank you

Michael,Can`t you give these guys their own page or make them go Private with their comments?I used to enjoy reading all the topics that were posted on the Forum but now I am a bit tired of reading about the NLA.
JHJ if you you feel as strong about the NLA as you seem to be SUE THEM and lets get on with it.If I had a million bucks tied up in vehicles I`d sure as hell spend some of it if I thought a wrong had been done that affects me & my business.I`ll check the Forum again in 1 Month to see if this conflict has been settled.Till then,TA TA.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bramalealimo:
Michael,Can`t you give these guys their own page or make them go Private with their comments?I used to enjoy reading all the topics that were posted on the Forum but now I am a bit tired of reading about the NLA.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What's the whining about? These topics are like TV channels. If a subject is uninteresting, don't go there. There's lots of people who are interested in this topic. There's more than half the topics on limos.com that I'm not interest in, so I just click them to update my visit and move on.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>JHJ if you you feel as strong about the NLA as you seem to be SUE THEM and lets get on with it. If I had a million bucks tied up in vehicles I`d sure as hell spend some of it if I thought a wrong had been done that affects me & my business. I`ll check the Forum again in 1 Month to see if this conflict has been settled. Till then,TA TA.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There's no reason to sue them if they're moving in the right direction, and we're finally seeing some movement. I think that they're aware that I'm quite serious, and now that lawyers are involved I think NLA may start to see things differently. If they don't cough up the records in the next week or so, then, yes, legal action is indicated and necessary. In a month either a great deal of progress will have been made, or you'll get an update here on litigation status.

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 10-13-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bramalealimo:
Michael,Can`t you give these guys their own page or make them go Private with their comments?I used to enjoy reading all the topics that were posted on the Forum but now I am a bit tired of reading about the NLA.
JHJ if you you feel as strong about the NLA as you seem to be SUE THEM and lets get on with it.If I had a million bucks tied up in vehicles I`d sure as hell spend some of it if I thought a wrong had been done that affects me & my business.I`ll check the Forum again in 1 Month to see if this conflict has been settled.Till then,TA TA.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

***********************
I have to agree with Jim. There are many other topics for discussion on the forum. Why not try the phone clinic topic? Poor phone communications will cost you mucho dollars!!

The NLA forum will work itself out.
John Sinibaldi
NLA Board Member


------------------

WELL!!!At least I got you two to agree to something..........

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bramalealimo:
WELL!!!At least I got you two to agree to something..........<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Interested in taking on the Middle East negotiations????

Well, it looks like things are going to get a little more exciting in N-LA-LA Land. It's been a week since I responded to a letter from NLA's lawyer about the records I requested SEVERAL WEEKS AGO, and there's still no response. It looks like the NLA lawyer is no different than NLA when it comes to stonewalling. Starting to crank up the litigation machine since it doesn't look like NLA is going to open its books to its members. I've been told people have been trying to get financial information and minutes of board meetings for years without success. Don't know why I thought I might do better, but it looks like these folks need taught a lesson. This will really give them good P.R. in the trade media. Speaking of trade media, it looks like Host has convinced NLA to let it publish a "Technical Journal" with a press kit floating around in cyber-space for a 2001 issue. Press kit doesn't say whether this is an annual, monthly, bi-monthly or semi-annual publication, so who knows what is going on. This is going to throw down the gauntlet with Bobit, and it'll be interesting to see where this pi**ing match is going to go. Wonder who will fire the next shot? Maybe in 2002 we'll have the Limo Digest Show in Atlantic City, the LCT Show in Las Vegas and the NLA Show in a circus tent in beautiful downtown Paducah, Kentucky, eh?
By the way, speaking of editorial neutrality, the press kit seems to offer advertising space to certain companies in the industry which they pay for, and as part of the deal they get to publish an "article" with 1600 words. Where I come from, the article, when coupled with an advertisement, is called "an advertisement."
Maybe this will loosen up the LCT editorial approach toward NLA a bit. A little birdy told me that Tom Mazza's upcoming article on the NLA Nominating Committee in the December LCT issue hit N-LA-LA Land like a nuclear air-burst and that NLA directors are trying to put the heat on Bobit not to publish it. Well, at least they can't shut up people on the internet!

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 10-15-2000).]

By the way, anybody who wants to see the press kit on the NLA Technical Journal, e-mail me. It's in MS PowerPoint format, so you have to have MS Office or some other viewer that will read PowerPoint files to look at it.

The new NLA website is up and functional. It looks a lot better - easy to read, functional, not too ambitious with all kinds of doo-dads to slow it down. The interface is a step in the right direction. It does not have much different substance than before, but let's see what happens. The key is whether it is updated regularly or allowed to languish as the former site did. All things considered, for whatever my input is worth, it's a good step in the right direction and it puts the membership list right up front where it should be. Michael would approve, I think.

Took a longer look at the NLA website and do have a couple of constructive comments. First, the convention of putting "area code" in parenthesis is outmoded and a product of small town folks where area codes are still thought of as geographic references rather than part of the number. There really is no such thing as area codes anymore and all numbers are 10-digit numbers. In most metropolitan areas there are now overlays so that next door neighbors can have different "area codes." In most major metro area, 10-digit dialing is already in force or just around the corner. Most of the time when you see "area codes" in parentheses anymore it's a sign that company is not "up to speed" with the real world or is rurally located. Just look at magazine advertisements, for example, and you won't see anybody using parentheses. Also, most advanced companies now use the international standard of periods instead of hyphens. This is why NLA should be moved to Washington, DC to get into the mainstream of the new millenium. Second, as good intentioned as it may be, putting a service area with each listing of a member is actually a disserervice for it is limiting. All the web site designer did was pick up the city in which the member receives its mail, and almost no member services just that city. I think that the service area feature should be either trashed, since it is nothing more than a duplication of the mailing address, or made more useful by permitting the member to add all of the locations where it does, in fact, provide services. This then becomes a nightmare - ask Michael. Besides, the way the search mechanism works anyhow, you have to put a city in and only companies with a mailing address for that city pop up. I know what the site designer did, he needed an index key for the search by location feature, so each member had to have a city field for the database, and then after using it for the "search" feature the designer then put that field in the display. Easy, but a bad move. Lose the location field in the display. When someone puts "Lexington" and "KY" in the search field, don't you think they know the result is members who service "Lexington" and "KY." DUhhhhhh!

Oh, ohhhhh. Big defect in NLA web site. The SQL server trips out with too many client tasks after several inquiries. Looks like not enough testing before it went on line.

Yes, the NLA website is a definite improvement! Within the previous version, you couldn't even perform a search. Do I approve? Ha Ha -- my approval should not matter.

However, I am happy to see that they did not pilfer Limos.com concepts like it seems every other "johnny-come-lately" website is doing.

I think this is a good site provided it is continually updated with news and information.

Time will tell!
Michael

For those who have been following this and related topics and who feel that NLA directors deserve better than being called names and who may have bought into the appellation that they are just hard-working folks who don't get paid and have made a few mistakes, let me recap the status of our company's demand on NLA to inspect certain of its books and records. First, by law, every member has an absolute right to inspect the books and records of the association. I have previously posted above the text of the D.C. Code relating to inspection of books and accounts of non-profit corporations. Second, I have been told by many, many members that they have asked repeatedly for years to look at certain books and records, to which the happy response is always "no problem," but the access never comes. Third, our company made formal, written demand on NLA on September 28 to inspect and copy certain books and records. Fourth, the day after the NLA directors met in New Orleans on October 2-4, Cory Rozen (NLA treasurer) called me and told me that he was sending me the current year financial statement and that it would take a "little longer" to get the earlier financial statements (Why? Aren't they all in a file cabinet? Is the copy machine broken?), but the financials have never come. Fifth, on October 6, NLA's lawyer faxed a letter to me inquiring as to the "purpose" of the inspection, to which I replied and told him on October 9 (by the way, NLA picked it's lawyer well - the letter had the wrong name, wrong street, and totally wrong zip code, as a result of which the mailed original letter to me was undeliverable - he must have trained as a member of the incompetent NLA staff). Sixth, after almost ten days there has been no other response from NLA of any kind.
Obviously, we're preparing the suit against NLA to force it to cough-up books and records which we think the directors have good reason to want to keep from ever seeing the light of day. As a result, NLA is going to spend thousand and thousands of members' dollars to try to keep its dirty little secrets secret. Remember John Sinibaldi - "There will be answers!!!" He's been saying that since August, and there not only are no answers, but there will be none (John is a newbie director who may not have yet learned what kind of company he's keeping on the NLA board), and John's pretty much disappeared from saying anything in these forums about the issues raised here for over two months. Some directors are going to start to resign rather than end up in lawsuits over this stonewalling and what the dirty little NLA secrets will reveal (Who's first - I predict at least one resignation before this week is over). Who was it that said in these forums that if a lawsuit is needed, he'll take a cab? Call me for your cab fare, for you seriously don't know what you're dealing with with these NLA people. And when you get into the cab, keep your tail tucked between your legs so the door doesn't slam shut on it - it's this kind of attitude that lets these NLA directors get away with running NLA as their own private fiefdom. This fouled nest must be cleaned out - these are not nice people, and it's time the NLA membership sent them packing. What do you have to say, John Sinibaldi? You're new - why are you protecting the NLA's dirty-little secrets? There's no reason for you to sign on to protecting these people, unless you've become one of them. Well, to coin a very tired and trite phrase - we'll see them in court. Tom Mazza, are you following? Can you conjure up any justification for NLA's stonewalling other than the fear of the dirty little secrets being exposed? The problems with this rogue organization go much deeper than the renegade Nominating Committee. How far have they gone to try to keep your December column from being published? Will it be published? When is Bobit going to quit pulling punches? If any non-profit anywhere engaged in this kind of irresponsible conduct, they'd be fair game for every local newspaper and every investigative reporter would be looking up the directors' anal apertures to see whether or not they can see blue sky (Oooppps! No blue-sky here at NLA). Stay tuned - anybody that thought these forums were getting ugly hasn't seen anything compared to what it's going to be like when the lawyers square off in court. Of course, every blow and every expenditure of members' money to avoid disclosure will be posted here so you members can see how NLA spends your money - and so you non-members can steer clear of this rogue association. By the way, scroll back up and see where John Sinibaldi says there will be a "white paper" on the compliance with the by-laws and that it will be made public to the members (pardon my hysterical laughter). John, I'm taking serious bets that neither will ever happen - no white paper, no disclosure, just like no answers. You name the amount.

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 10-17-2000).]

Meanwhile, back on the trail of Host Communications and the lack of responsiveness of NLA staff to members. The new web site identifies these people by name and by a direct-dial phone number. What are all these people doing at NLA??? My gosh, we've got two full-time staff people working on certification (CTCP), and no certification program!!! Here's a news flash for you (and part of why we want to see the NLA books and records). It's our understanding that the NLA contract with Host Communications was for about $280,000 per year, give or take a few dollars. It's also our understanding that in connection with the renewal of that contract at the end of this year (it ought not to be renewed, but no one on the current board has the cajones to stand up to Host), Host proposes to charge NLA about $410,000, give or take a few dollars - AND, to CUT the staff!!!! Not that the current staff would be a great loss, but one must wonder how NLA justifies paying more for less?
For some time I've been wondering how many lurkers there are quietly reading these forums but saying nothing. NLA thinks that there are very few and that's why they are willing to stonewall the issues raised here. But then, a few days ago I offered to send the press kit for the NLA Technical Journal to any one who asked me for it, and I found out how many lurkers there are. I got flooded with requests from e-mail addresses we never heard of or see on these forums.

Just went out to the new NLA website - much better than the old one. Only one problem, when searching for companies in my service area I discovered, just as JHJ did, that my companies service area is represented by only my mailing address. As the information for my company is currently presented, it is useless. My company does not appear on the results of the searches for major cities we service. Sent emails requesting updates to our information. Hope company information is updated in a timely manner on the website.
Readers of the forum - check your information on the new NLA website - you may require updates as well.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tampa Limo Company:
Just went out to the new NLA website - much better than the old one. Only one problem, when searching for companies in my service area I discovered, just as JHJ did, that my companies service area is represented by only my mailing address. As the information for my company is currently presented, it is useless. My company does not appear on the results of the searches for major cities we service. Sent emails requesting updates to our information. Hope company information is updated in a timely manner on the website.
Readers of the forum - check your information on the new NLA website - you may require updates as well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And you REALLY think that anyone from NLA is going to respond? Let's countdown the days.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jhj:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tampa Limo Company:
Just went out to the new NLA website - much better than the old one. Only one problem, when searching for companies in my service area I discovered, just as JHJ did, that my companies service area is represented by only my mailing address. As the information for my company is currently presented, it is useless. My company does not appear on the results of the searches for major cities we service. Sent emails requesting updates to our information. Hope company information is updated in a timely manner on the website.
Readers of the forum - check your information on the new NLA website - you may require updates as well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And you REALLY think that anyone from NLA is going to respond? Let's countdown the days.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe things are changing. Just received several emails from the NLA's Member Services indicating that the updates that I requested to my company information on the NLA website had been completed. New information should appear after they do their I believe bi-weekly update to the website. Couldn't have asked for better or faster service if in fact everything gets updated as I requested.

So have your changes been completed? Or have you just been told it was done, but it hasn't been uploaded to the server? I guess what I am getting at is, is it viewable by the web yet?

A bi-weekly update of a web server is really slow, albeit, this is an excellent improvement over nothing at all for the past 3 years. Progress!!!

http://limos.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Michael

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by XENEFOX Media Corporation:
So have your changes been completed? Or have you just been told it was done, but it hasn't been uploaded to the server? I guess what I am getting at is, is it viewable by the web yet?

A bi-weekly update of a web server is really slow, albeit, this is an excellent improvement over nothing at all for the past 3 years. Progress!!!

http://limos.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Michael
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Michael:

Checked the website - it has not been updated yet with my information. I can wait until the NLA bi-weekly update as long as it gets done at that time.

Based upon the quickness of the email replies to my request, I can only assume that an effort is being made on the part of the NLA to service the members using the website.

It was frightening Michael - the NLA people must be staying up nights reading email and responding (just like someone we know at XENEFOX - I won't mention any names).

Tampa Limo Company I am sure you will get a response, but the NLA did send out forms about what listing area's you would want to be in, unfortunately some people paid attention some did not, (this time no fault of the NLA)we had the same problem it is supposed to be corrected if you email them.

Jim as I said in the past, some of your questions I have agreed with and understand what your asking for and thats fine, we have all had our wars.I have always said to all do and follow what you think is right and mostly right for the industry, but I have a question. Lawsuits will eventually cost the NLA which then costs the members so I'm not real sure if thats the right angle to get things done. The thing that concerns me is I have not seen anyone jumping on your band wagon, is it that most do not care or what.
You are probally right about resignations forth coming, my concern is that the wrong ones will most likely bail out and those are the ones we need.
I would just like to know what exactly is your agenda and objectives with all this, total destruction?
Just a curios question.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nkokas:
Carolyn THANKS for the response. I sent you an e-mail explaiing the mix up with the NLA's involvement with our problem in Michigan and I made the correction. I want everybody to know that the NLA IS working with us to defeat this bill in Michigan. Also I'm glad you agree with me that the game in this forum is getting out of control. Thanks for you input and hopefully all our operators in Michigan will get a chance to meet with you or speak with you to discuss REAL issues.

By the way what does Limos.com think about how people are using this forum. I know everyone has a right to say what they want but don't you feel that if people from the outside as a customer looking in would see this as a negative thing towards the industry.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The industry belongs to the operators who work in our profession, period. DEAN SCHULER

Ask Kay how many vehicles she owns. And what is wrong with a 2 car operator. My friend Harold Berkman used to say the small company was the backbone of the industry. And, they are!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DEAN SCHULER


[This message has been edited by XENEFOX Media Corporation (edited 10-23-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Big Ragu:
Jim as I said in the past, some of your questions I have agreed with and understand what your asking for and thats fine, we have all had our wars. I have always said to all do and follow what you think is right and mostly right for the industry, but I have a question. Lawsuits will eventually cost the NLA which then costs the members so I'm not real sure if thats the right angle to get things done. The thing that concerns me is I have not seen anyone jumping on your band wagon, is it that most do not care or what.
You are probally right about resignations forth coming, my concern is that the wrong ones will most likely bail out and those are the ones we need.
I would just like to know what exactly is your agenda and objectives with all this, total destruction?
Just a curios question.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmmmmm. Earlier today I thought here was a post here by Dean Schulr that said something about whether I might have chickened out - in fact, I'm sure there was. Someone is moderating the forum now.
In any event, I've been quiet about NLA for a couple of weeks now because this matter has moved almost exclusively into the legal arena and there's not much use divulging what and when in these forums until after it happens. Actually, I'm waiting for the Limo Digest show in Atlantic City next week when a number of people will be present and I'll be able to determine exactly what the strategy of dealing with a rogue NLA will be. Never fear, Dean, I plan on pursuing the matter of opening up NLA's record in court, but wanted to wait and see if NLA has the temerity to try to nominate and elect directors contrary to the by-laws so I can wrap everything into one suit instead of multiple suits.
In case anyone has been wondering, NLA rejected opening up most of the records my letter in late September October asked them for. And I'm sure you're not wondering about whether NLA will ever address the issues raised here since August. Notice that John Sinibaldi's big promises about answering questions have disappeared without so much as a whisper, and Ron Sorci's promises that he had to talk to other to be able to answer the questions were a bunch of crap. These guys have been hushed up - if they even intended to answer, which I personally doubt. As you can see, NLA will not address any issues in these forums, will not make any significant books or records available, and will do nothing except stonewall and spend member's money in court to prevent anyone from finding out what REALLY goes on in the NLA. Sinibaldi's statements that there will be a "white paper" that will be distributed to the members is also so much hooey, or, as John himself has said in the past, just "crapola." There are deep, dark secrets in NLA that no one wants to come to the surface - there are very vested interests that want to be sure that NLA is not taken over by its members.
As for your comment Big Ragu, the bandwagon is private. Few will speak out in public, but my private e-mail and telephone jumps off the hook. How could you ask at this point what my agenda is - I've repeated it over and over and over again, just scroll back and read. As for the destruction of NLA - that is certainly NOT my intention or agenda. I intend to bring democracy to the NLA and return control to the members. Will that result in its destruction - possibly, because the board and Host seem to be willing to take steps that could lead to the destruction of NLA to prevent the members from taking control of NLA or opening up its books and records to the members. Any destruction of NLA will be self-destruction, certainly nothing from outside. As far as the wrong persons bailing out, I agree with you. I think that the Nominating Committee keeps all but a few good people off the board so that the "good" people cannot make a difference. Then the good ones get fed up with the crap and realize the futility and leave. Remember the famous saying, "All that it takes for evil to triumph is for enough good men to do nothing."

Thanks for the updated answer, I have had to clarify some things, for the benefit of some new readers it was easier for you to answer my questions.
You know the saying "one step forward two steps back". I have been quiet "but" I am waiting to see what the NLA nominating committee comes up with and who they sneek in there or who they dump on.
I am sure we will see you in AC.

See you later

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Big Ragu:
I am sure we will see you in AC.

See you later<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's correct, we will be in Atlantic City. And for anyone else who has been following these topics that wants to talk about NLA (and it will be a major topic of discussion), folks from our company will be staying at the Taj and we'll be around the exhibit floor during the hours when it is open.

The Nominating Committee is the most evil part of NLA. It it the most rogue part of the organization. It follows no standards or criteria, and it uses whatever comes to mind to rationalize who it picks as candidates and to exclude others. It is totally without responsibility, has no acountability, and runs counter to every democratic tradition embedded in the culture of this country. It is "Ground Zero" of the litigation that is about to erupt when it announces its "choices." Seriously, students of Russian history would recognize it as the old Soviet Politboro reincarnated in Lexington, Kentucky especially for YOU. We'll see in a couple of weeks if Tom Mazza gets it right when the December issue of LCT comes out.

The Nominating Committee is the "lockbox" for those who are controlling NLA in their own interests. The key to NLA member democracy is in that lockbox and I plan to channel my energies to pry open that lockbox. Once the board is democratically selected, it will be much easier to change NLA. Right now they are dullards who are handmaidens of vested interests who just stonewall anyone who wants to make a difference. And by the way, when I make sweeping comments like that, I can't stop at every juncture to split hairs - SURE, there are a small handful of good people on the board I'll admit - such as David Seelinger if he lasts, and if he'll speak up. I understand that he jumped off the Nominating Committee - but he should do more; as a director, he should act to crush it and drive a stake through its heart.


[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 11-01-2000).]

Well, it's off to the LimoDigest Show in Atlantic City for a few days. You won't have JHJ to kick around for a few days. http://limos.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Hey, anybody who's going and wants to commiserate about NLA - or anything else for that matter - look us up at the Taj.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jhj:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Big Ragu:
Jim as I said in the past, some of your questions I have agreed with and understand what your asking for and thats fine, we have all had our wars. I have always said to all do and follow what you think is right and mostly right for the industry, but I have a question. Lawsuits will eventually cost the NLA which then costs the members so I'm not real sure if thats the right angle to get things done. The thing that concerns me is I have not seen anyone jumping on your band wagon, is it that most do not care or what.
You are probally right about resignations forth coming, my concern is that the wrong ones will most likely bail out and those are the ones we need.
I would just like to know what exactly is your agenda and objectives with all this, total destruction?
Just a curios question.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmmmmm. Earlier today I thought here was a post here by Dean Schulr that said something about whether I might have chickened out - in fact, I'm sure there was. Someone is moderating the forum now.
In any event, I've been quiet about NLA for a couple of weeks now because this matter has moved almost exclusively into the legal arena and there's not much use divulging what and when in these forums until after it happens. Actually, I'm waiting for the Limo Digest show in Atlantic City next week when a number of people will be present and I'll be able to determine exactly what the strategy of dealing with a rogue NLA will be. Never fear, Dean, I plan on pursuing the matter of opening up NLA's record in court, but wanted to wait and see if NLA has the temerity to try to nominate and elect directors contrary to the by-laws so I can wrap everything into one suit instead of multiple suits.
In case anyone has been wondering, NLA rejected opening up most of the records my letter in late September October asked them for. And I'm sure you're not wondering about whether NLA will ever address the issues raised here since August. Notice that John Sinibaldi's big promises about answering questions have disappeared without so much as a whisper, and Ron Sorci's promises that he had to talk to other to be able to answer the questions were a bunch of crap. These guys have been hushed up - if they even intended to answer, which I personally doubt. As you can see, NLA will not address any issues in these forums, will not make any significant books or records available, and will do nothing except stonewall and spend member's money in court to prevent anyone from finding out what REALLY goes on in the NLA. Sinibaldi's statements that there will be a "white paper" that will be distributed to the members is also so much hooey, or, as John himself has said in the past, just "crapola." There are deep, dark secrets in NLA that no one wants to come to the surface - there are very vested interests that want to be sure that NLA is not taken over by its members.
As for your comment Big Ragu, the bandwagon is private. Few will speak out in public, but my private e-mail and telephone jumps off the hook. How could you ask at this point what my agenda is - I've repeated it over and over and over again, just scroll back and read. As for the destruction of NLA - that is certainly NOT my intention or agenda. I intend to bring democracy to the NLA and return control to the members. Will that result in its destruction - possibly, because the board and Host seem to be willing to take steps that could lead to the destruction of NLA to prevent the members from taking control of NLA or opening up its books and records to the members. Any destruction of NLA will be self-destruction, certainly nothing from outside. As far as the wrong persons bailing out, I agree with you. I think that the Nominating Committee keeps all but a few good people off the board so that the "good" people cannot make a difference. Then the good ones get fed up with the crap and realize the futility and leave. Remember the famous saying, "All that it takes for evil to triumph is for enough good men to do nothing."
The thing is this. Just because LCT hsa a terrible circulation department ( No knowledge of statistics and demography ) doesn't mean they are a bad magazine. QVM history is not known to the vast majority of operators. The N.L.A. was founded by industry veterans, now you have what you have. For those of you who ask about the LIMOUSINE INDUSTRY COUNCIL, go to www.limogram.com, (http://www.limogram.com,) and see where the people in this industry who have over 20 years experience are. DEAN SCHULER
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Things have been quiet in these forums while the legal strategy to deal with NLA is being planned. Atlantic City certainly was interesting - a lot of things happened. I resisted the temptation to get in on the action when NLA President Darryl Norman and aspiring NLA director Joe Cirruzzo almost came to blows in the exhibit hall. Anyone notice that after almost four months, not one issue addressed in these forums, or any questions asked, have been answered by NLA or any director? And they never will be because the rogue NLA board is convinced that the NLA members are sheep and don't give a damn about anything they do with NLA or its money. SOOOOOOOOOOO, here are some questions for the NLA members to answer. Where are the NLA directors who once had the temerity to show themselves in these forums? Is there a conspiracy of silence, which Tom Mazza thinks is farfetched, but which really isn't (the silence speaks for itself)? Why did Carey International, which hadn't been an NLA member for almost 10 years as a result of non-payment of dues, pay almost $11,000 to NLA in "back dues" to suddenly reinstate its lapsed membership? Why is the NLA Nominating Committee rejecting candidates for the board of directors who meet the qualifications set out in the by-laws? Why did NLA Executive Director Bob Scott resign last Friday? Why will the true story behind his resignation never be reported by LCT magazine? Why, for the first time ever, without any authority in the by-laws, will the ballot for the election of NLA directors require members to vote for directors by region? How many times will the NLA board sell out the association and its members for their own interests? Why is David Seelinger associating with the rogue's gallery that is called the NLA board? For all you NLA "sheep" out there who don't know the answers to these questions, here are three clues - FOLLOW THE MONEY, FOLLOW THE MONEY, FOLLOW THE MONEY. For those of you in these forums who think we shouldn't call the board names, and who don't have the nerve to stand-up for the association - you don't know the half of what is going on. A month ago I thought that NLA would survive the antics of this board of directors - today I think that only heroic efforts will save NLA, which is going to self-destruct. For our part, we're still waiting for the announcement by NLA of the board of director candidates, the election of directors by region, and the confirmation that NLA is going to try to elect directors other than as required in the by-laws at an annual meeting of the members, and then it's off to court. These rogues don't understand any other language, or they're too deep in the muck to risk losing their control of NLA.
By the way, has anyone noticed that NLA's principal activity anymore is trying to sign up new members? What services has NLA provided to YOU in the past twelve months? Where has all the money gone (hey, we could put that to music!)?
NLA is low-hanging fruit that is being picked, and picked and picked. Sooner or later, the details will be told. Will Bob Scott talk? If so, to whom? Not LCT.

I have been forgetting to mention something in these forums about how complete and total is the disregard of the NLA by-laws by the NLA board, Host Communication and eveyone else associated with NLA - and now, including its lawyers, who should know better. When we wrote to NLA demanding access to its books and records (which has been stonewalled), we got a letter back from NLA's lawyers. One of the tidbits in the letter was the following offer: ". . . as an alternative to inspection of NLA's records, NLA hereby offers to refund the dues paid by Pegasus for membership in the year 2000." Remember, now, this is coming from NLA's lawyers who are trying to keep us out of the NLA's records. How badly do they want to keep us out? Enough to violate yet another provision of the NLA by-laws!!!! Article 4 (entitled "Dues"), Section C (entitled "Refund of Dues"), provides: "No dues shall be refunded to any member whose membership terminates for any reason." Does this give you any idea of how bad NLA wants to keep us out of its records? Wake up out there and smell the coffee, all you sheep. It beats the stench coming from NLA headquarters. You spell this "offer" P-A-Y-O-F-F.

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 11-14-2000).]

Hey! Has anyone noticed that the NLA LimoScene which was supposed to come out in mid-October is MIA? This was the issue that was supposed to find out if the NLA members supported the CTCP, or not. The fact is, that this program is dead, dead, dead, and if you bought into it you wasted your money. The most heavily invested, Carey, is going to try to revive it because it is used by Carey as a competitive tool to bludgeon its competition, but it won't work. This program, as of today, is nothing more than a Carey "tool." Notice from the NLA web site that two staffers are devoted to the CTCP - why is our money being spent to maintain a facade that this program still exists, only to benefit Carey. The CTCP is a "perfect" example of what is wrong with the NLA. Are the sheep in the pasture ever going to take back their association - bahhhhhhhhhhhhh?

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 11-14-2000).]

Well Jim Atlantic City still sucks and so does the the NLA executive board.
You mention PAYOFFS this group could not even figure out the word.
Yes Jim its me, the prodding is over I no longer have any use for this bunch.
As far as the three marks brothers (Cory, Michelle and lets not forget Harpo, I mean Daryl) this bunch that is trying to keep guys like Solombrino, Cirruzzo and maybe even Kinsey off the board should be thrown off themselves.
I know you did not think that much of BOB Scott (maybe I am wrong here) but he was a friend and did what he could with this crew.
I also want to know why a Carey rep was allowed to pay back dues, I assume so he can run for this board and keep it all in house.
I want to see John answer this, come on mouth we all know your still reading.
Why after getting an award was Bob allowed to leave?
Why was Goldy allowed to pay back dues?
Why is this board so afraid of Solombrino & Cirruzzo? and why not let them run and let the people decide?
Why does the executive board lie to the rest of the board?
Why is there secret meetings with the executive board that are not even being told to the rest of the board?
And to Mr. Empire himself (Zeppo) when are you going to stop playing both sides and show your true colors?
Why does anyone with a brain hate all of you?
And finally WHY WONT YOU 3 MARKS BROTHERS JUST QUIT AND DO EVERYBODY A FAVOR?
(With these 3 you spell it MARKS I would not insult the Real Marx Brothers)
For very one out there that was teetering back and forth about JHJ's agenda, well it is to clean up the NLA, but I don't think it can happen, to many good directors will start to bail out (something some of us hoped would not happen).
When guys like Solombrino start yelling "Vote for me its time we clean up the NLA and bring it back to the members" and Joe Cirruzzo who they are deathly afraid of, team up, it would have them running for the hills.

Jim more support is coming.

Here comes the TLPA (ITLA)

Lets see what the NLA has to say

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Not Alone Ranger:
Well Jim Atlantic City still sucks and so does the the NLA executive board.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

By this I hope you're talking about the recent convention held in Atlantic City and not the city itself. If it's the latter, why lay insult to an entire city in a discussion about the NLA? I missed the AC Limo Show. I had registered and paid but a family emergency came up so I couldn't make the trip. Hope there was more positives than negatives.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jhj:
Hey! Has anyone noticed that the NLA LimoScene which was supposed to come out in mid-October is MIA? This was the issue that was supposed to find out if the NLA members supported the CTCP, or not. The fact is, that this program is dead, dead, dead, and if you bought into it you wasted your money. The most heavily invested, Carey, is going to try to revive it because it is used by Carey as a competitive tool to bludgeon its competition, but it won't work. This program, as of today, is nothing more than a Carey "tool." Notice from the NLA web site that two staffers are devoted to the CTCP - why is our money being spent to maintain a facade that this program still exists, only to benefit Carey. The CTCP is a "perfect" example of what is wrong with the NLA. Are the sheep in the pasture ever going to take back their association - bahhhhhhhhhhhhh?

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 11-14-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jim:

Why won't the NLA allow Solombrino and Ciruzzo to run for a director? I have had dealings with both of them for years and they seem like honorable guys to me. They cant be any worse than the previous board who allowed Livery Coach to screw us. And the so called benefits to members is a joke. I have seen better benefits from Val Pak coupons in the mail.

Speaking of Carey, I understand now that the new owners of Carey are telling their affiliates how they are gonna make them rich when they buy them out. How funny is that? I would be willing to bet that in the future they find some kind of way to void these affiliates contracts and open company stores in whatever city they want.

------------------
Wade Randolph

Wade the reason this so called executive board and nominating committee are afraid is these guy will expose their crap and they won't put up with gag orders. This is the same reason Bob Scott had enough this thing can not be saved any longer with this crew.
The Ranger and Jim is right and whether Jim wants the people on the band wagon or not, in a matter of a few days he picked up 25 more supportors.
The best thing that could happen is that every member writes in and demands these people leave the board.
At this point you don't know who to believe, there are only a few to trust.
Like the Ranger says, start with the Marx Brothers.
Any NLA member reading this should come on and support Cirruzzo and Solombrino first before they tell the board to stick it and walk away.
Hey Jim start a new forum, vote for board members you want.
I'll start, Solombrino, Cirruzzo, Hoskins, Nelson, Tomkin, Kinsey, (Sorcy - President) get rid of Host hire Bob Scott directly as executive director, he at least can work with the TLPA.
If this don't happen then let the TLPA take over the NLA.
And to think we don't want to deal with Castro because of the way he runs Cuba.
I'd rather deal with him anymore.

Alright Jim lets hear from you, input! And don't say I told you so.

I would hope the Ranger did not mean the city itself.
It's not the cities fault that the service sucks, the food is awful and that they let Daryll Norman in.
Hopefully next year they will correct some of this, I can deal with the service and food problem!!!!!
I rather like the Marks brother comment, I also like a comment from Abbott and Costello when they said, don't go away mad just go away.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ragu:
Alright Jim lets hear from you, input! And don't say I told you so.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, I told you so, but I'm not happy that we are where we are. I really hoped that NLA would pull itself together, but Host and the directors apparently know better than we do that there probably aren't enough members in NLA who give a damn to threaten their grip. There are two routes to deal with this rogue organization, one of which requires only a small number of members to rally, and the second requires a wider effort. The first is in court, where we bring an action to force NLA to open its books and records and also enjoin the election of directors which is coming up in December-January. I think this can be won hands down. If we force NLA to follow its by-laws, then the Solombrinos and Cirruzzos of the world can get nominated and the members can decide who they want on the board instead of those who control the nominating committee. The second approach is to run a proxy effort and solicit proxies from at least 10% of the members which will probably be enough to control an annual or special meeting. This effort would take a lot of phone calls and politicking to get the message across to enough people to get the requisite number of proxies. The 10% proxies gives enough votes to legally convene a meeting of the members, and a simple majority of the members can amend the by-laws. Going this route the by-laws can be re-written to change the nominating procedures, to provide for accountability of the board to the members, and to bring democracy to the NLA, and it can also provide a better procedure to remove directors. Once that's done, the Marx Bros. are out and good people will come in. This is about the last chance before NLA self-destructs, in my opinion. The latter approach is harder, but it is less expensive and less subject to the whim of a judge. Can we put 150 members together?? We need input on that. I think it's time all the lurkers came out of the woodwork and stand up to be counted. Does someone want to set up an Ad Hoc Committee for NLA Democracy and enlist people who are willing to commit themselves to this effort?
I want to add one thing. I have never had any use for Bob Scott because in my opinion he was and is an inept administrator. He may now be useful if he's willing to talk. If not, he has no use now or in the future in my opinion, so I cannot personally support any effort that would make use of him. There are experienced association heads all over the place from which to select a good NLA executive director. And as far as Ron Sorci is concerned, in my limited meetings with him he seems to be a nice enough guy and probably more competent than many. However, as I've previously said I was the subject of a cheap, gratuitous attack by Sorci over the CTCP issue, and so I gave him back what I think he deserved. However, he has never seen fit to apologize for his conduct, so I cannot be part of any effort that supports Sorci for an elective office at NLA and, in fact, would oppose his election to any such office in the absence of an apology from him. And remember, it was Ron Sorci who in late August or early September said in these forums that there would be answers to the questions raised and issues but that he needed to talk to others, and then did nothing. I don't think we want to rebuild NLA around Ron Sorci based on my experience with him, even if he is a friend of friends. I've treated him civilly, but I have lost neither my long nor short-term memory, nor, for that matter, my mind. Moreover, if you look at the financial information available on Precept Business Systems, you'll likely conclude that Precept (and, ipso facto, its subsidiaries) is a mere hop-skip-and-a-jump away from Chapter 11 and a flood of shareholder suits. So there's a question as to how long Ron Sorci will meet the requirements to be an NLA member.
I also want to add one more thing - one way or another we have to break the relationship between NLA and Bobit because it destroys LCT's (and Tom Mazza's) journalistic independence, and this industry needs such independence, whether it comes from LCT or LimoDigest. That doesn't mean you can't have a business relationship between Bobit and NLA, but it means that the relationship should be straightforward, out-in-the-open and of mutual advantage to both NLA and Bobit, with no more of this crap of putting an unlawfully appointed director on the NLA board. But as I see it, LCT and Tom Mazza won't take the hard positions that need to be taken because the relationship with NLA has been too cozy and everybody is jockeying for position. (I have a feeling that Tom Mazza's December editorial on the nominating committee will be a punch delivered by a fist in a velvet glove, but we'll soon see). Bobit may end up undoing itself with NLA by trying to play its cards too close to the vest. For years, the U.S. State Department always came across looking like schmucks because we supported dictators in banana republics and when they were overthrown we were standing there with our d**k in our hand. Slowly we've learned that it's best to hedge and work not only with the "present" regime, but also work to establish the "next" regime as a method to maintain continuity. Ty Bobit needs to study a little political history and learn this lesson - or perhaps find Bobit "out" of any relationship with the NLA. The time for a revolt has come, and people are going to have to choose up sides fairly quickly - or watch NLA slither into oblivion. And, yes, I am most baffled in this whole thing by David Seelinger who has the stature to provide leadership and effect change - will he stand up and be counted? And remember, FOLLOW THE MONEY!


[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 11-15-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Not Alone Ranger:
Well Jim Atlantic City still sucks and so does the the NLA executive board.
You mention PAYOFFS this group could not even figure out the word.
Yes Jim its me, the prodding is over I no longer have any use for this bunch.
As far as the three marks brothers (Cory, Michelle and lets not forget Harpo, I mean Daryl) this bunch that is trying to keep guys like Solombrino, Cirruzzo and maybe even Kinsey off the board should be thrown off themselves.
I know you did not think that much of BOB Scott (maybe I am wrong here) but he was a friend and did what he could with this crew.
I also want to know why a Carey rep was allowed to pay back dues, I assume so he can run for this board and keep it all in house.
I want to see John answer this, come on mouth we all know your still reading.
Why after getting an award was Bob allowed to leave?
Why was Goldy allowed to pay back dues?
Why is this board so afraid of Solombrino & Cirruzzo? and why not let them run and let the people decide?
Why does the executive board lie to the rest of the board?
Why is there secret meetings with the executive board that are not even being told to the rest of the board?
And to Mr. Empire himself (Zeppo) when are you going to stop playing both sides and show your true colors?
Why does anyone with a brain hate all of you?
And finally WHY WONT YOU 3 MARKS BROTHERS JUST QUIT AND DO EVERYBODY A FAVOR?
(With these 3 you spell it MARKS I would not insult the Real Marx Brothers)
For very one out there that was teetering back and forth about JHJ's agenda, well it is to clean up the NLA, but I don't think it can happen, to many good directors will start to bail out (something some of us hoped would not happen).
When guys like Solombrino start yelling "Vote for me its time we clean up the NLA and bring it back to the members" and Joe Cirruzzo who they are deathly afraid of, team up, it would have them running for the hills.

Jim more support is coming.

Here comes the TLPA (ITLA)

Lets see what the NLA has to say

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
************
Dear Alone Ranger

I don't think of myself as the mouth. I would be happy to talk to you but not as an unregistered ranger. My number is 1-503-881-9990. I have no problem in answering your questions. I ran on the board to help our industry and I am willing to listen to you. Step out behind the shadows and lets talk.

John Sinibaldi
NLA Board Member

P.S. Bob was a friend and I feel he did a good job considering the pressure he was under.

------------------

Boy oh boy I go away for awhile and all hell breaks loose!
Very interesting comments above.
Why is the elections being held up?
Jim you could be very right about Sorcy, the question is who is the lesser of the two evils Sorcy or Norman?
Norman has to go I would hate to see him win for lack of compitition.
Maybe somebody could convince Solombrino to go for President,if we could get the Marx brothers out, hell Marx brothers, lets get most of them out. I'll go with Ragu's other selection's and add Barbara Pastelak in there. But beware of the 2 headed dragon that rules the Empire!
I believe you had a good idea, start a forum lets get a list going and get that 150 members, start the phone calls and start faxing members.
You title up the page we will get it out, if only 150 members care then let them lead the membership.
As for Bob Scott, if your reading this forum, speak up let them have it, tell the truth.
Its now or never members, make your choice if you care, if not, say it drop out and then join the TLPA (ITLA)and make the Limo division stronger. Hell join the TLPA now don't wait, they will probably wind up taking over the NLA anyway.

Hey Mikey you out there, if we get this turned over, you want to be Executive Director of the New NLA, you've been succesful?
I'll be back.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Pussy Pompinsiero:
Why is the elections being held up? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Because the Nominating Committee is trying to exclude people and they are fighting back.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Jim you could be very right about Sorcy, the question is who is the lesser of the two evils Sorcy or Norman?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree that Norman has to go. Remember, however, that the President is not required to be a director, so the field to choose from is broader than the directors - in fact, it would probably be good to have a president who is not a director under the current circumstances.

AND . . . on the subject of starting a forum to solicit 150 companies, I think this should be done by private e-mail. There are a lot of members scared stiff to get out in front, and there's no reason to let the Marx Bros. know what we're doing. A lot that has happened in the past 45 days has been by backchannel, that's why these forums have been so quiet. I'm considering setting up a forum for this subject at our internet domain which can be accessed only by password and preserve the security of the effort. In case you don't think that this is a war, think again. We're only going to reclaim NLA piece-by-piece, one battle at a time, and it's going to take a lot of work because these people are entrenched and have a great deal at stake in clinging to control of NLA. They have so much at stake that they'll be willing to destroy NLA before losing control.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by XENEFOX Media Corporation:
Which brings me to Bob Scott's resignation -- it may have something to do with his affiliation with LimoLink; as far as I know he sits on the Board of Directors for their company. I always felt this was a conflict of interest on the NLA's part. Maybe not. Board of Director appointments, standards, and typical BOD formation as it relates to a person's outside representations is something I do not know much about.

Perhaps the possibility of bad PR / potential lawsuits for NLA prompted his resignation which could have a trickle down effect to LimoLink in terms of credibility. The last thing a growing company wants is to have one of their board members the subject to *alleged* scandal and lawsuits.

Just my speculation.

=)
Michael<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, Michael - you're way off. The reasons are a lot closer to what I have been saying about the NLA board here than you may think. To his credit, Bob couldn't tolerate them anymore than me. I'll wait to see if Bob will speak for himself, which I understand that he may do - only time will tell.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
[QUOTE]I would be happy to talk to you but not as an unregistered ranger. My number is 1-503-881-9990. I have no problem in answering your questions. I ran on the board to help our industry and I am willing to listen to you. Step out behind the shadows and lets talk.

John Sinibaldi
NLA Board Member

P.S. Bob was a friend and I feel he did a good job considering the pressure he was under.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
John - You know that this is an unfair position. The NLA board of directors has a lot of small-minded vicious people on it, and most of the people who respond privately to me and to others in connection with issues raised in these forums are afraid to come out on these issues until they're sure that a new broom is going to sweep clean. If the man raises a legitimate point, answer it - and answer it here. Nobody has done that yet.

As to Bob Scott, you know as well as I do that the buck stopped with Bob and he bears the responsibility for the mess at the NLA headquarters. He sets the culture that lets staff think they can ignore members phone calls and e-mails and cater to the directors. That culture is on its way out, along with the people who operate within it. Remember, I'm still waiting for a phone call from him from July 29 - weeks before I went on the attack. At least he has a reason not to call me now.

OK

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jhj:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
[QUOTE]I would be happy to talk to you but not as an unregistered ranger. My number is 1-503-881-9990. I have no problem in answering your questions. I ran on the board to help our industry and I am willing to listen to you. Step out behind the shadows and lets talk.

John Sinibaldi
NLA Board Member

P.S. Bob was a friend and I feel he did a good job considering the pressure he was under.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
John - You know that this is an unfair position. The NLA board of directors has a lot of small-minded vicious people on it, and most of the people who respond privately to me and to others in connection with issues raised in these forums are afraid to come out on these issues until they're sure that a new broom is going to sweep clean. If the man raises a legitimate point, answer it - and answer it here. Nobody has done that yet.

As to Bob Scott, you know as well as I do that the buck stopped with Bob and he bears the responsibility for the mess at the NLA headquarters. He sets the culture that lets staff think they can ignore members phone calls and e-mails and cater to the directors. That culture is on its way out, along with the people who operate within it. Remember, I'm still waiting for a phone call from him from July 29 - weeks before I went on the attack. At least he has a reason not to call me now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jim:

Why are NLA members scared to speak out in public against the NLA? I don't understand all the cloak and dagger crap.

------------------
Wade Randolph

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wade Randolph:
Jim:
Why are NLA members scared to speak out in public against the NLA? I don't understand all the cloak and dagger crap.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wade - the members who are truly movers and shakers in the industry have numerous ties throughout the country which bring in business and which relate to the well-being of their companies. It is an appearance that taking on the NLA board and people behind the control of the board can
result in damage to a member's business. None of this is true, of course, but this business is hard enough without someone trying to make it harder. A lot of others just have a "little guy complex," which means that they've been litle guys for so long that they have an inferiority complex and fear anyone that looks like they have any power.

Well, it's happening. The NLA Nominating Committee has put a gun to the head of NLA and is squeezing the trigger - just like slow motion in the movies. How so? Word is that the Nominating Committee will reject the candidacy of Joe Cirruzzo of A Elegant Limousine in New York to keep him from running for the board of directors. Why? Joe meets the only two qualification for directors contained in the NLA By-Laws (Article 5, section G) - he has been a member for more than two years and understands the commitment required to be a director. Seems that some people on the Nominating Committee, urged on by NLA President Darryl Norman (more about him in a minute), found a newspaper article that raised a question about Joe's "background," which, of course, has nothing to do with qualifications to be an NLA director. This simple act will blow-up NLA, beause this begins a court challenge to the NLA election procedures that, in my humble opinion, will result in either stopping or setting aside the election, if it occurs.
Since the NLA board is so interested in candidate's backgrounds, we thought we should look into the "backgrounds" of the present NLA directors, so we're getting "deep" background checks on these pious folks to see if they're as squeaky clean as they pretend. We'll see who they owe money to, who has been sued and for what, who's been divorced and why, whether they paid their child support and alimony or not, driving record, who owns their company, regulatory violations, E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G. We'll also see what their local newspapers have said about them from time to time (likely nothing since most of the board are lightweights that pinch themselves every morning to see if they're just dreaming that somehow they became an NLA director). Now that NLA has started down the slippery slope of looking at people's "backgrounds," no one will ever run for the board again and NLA is finished - caput! Good work Darryl, Kay and whatever other "commissars" are sitting on the Nominating Committee today (they change every few days to suit how someone feels)!!! We'll see how you like this approach.
While we're talking about the NLA election procedures, let's take a look at whether NLA can muster together a legal election. Article 6, Section I, Subsection b of the NLA by-laws provides that the Nominating Committee shall meet not less than ninety days before the annual meeting of the members (what annual meeting, you might might ask - right, there has never been one) and shall recommend by a "written majority vote" nominees for membership on the board of directors. Word is that the Nominating Committee did not take a written vote, so the process is unlawful from the git-go. Also, if today is the day of the committee's report, then there can be no annual meeting for the election of directors until at least February 16. And if there is no legal meeting of the members, there can be no legal election of directors which have been unlawfully nominated, and there can then be no lawful election of officers. READ MY LIPS - WE ARE GOING TO COURT IN WASHINGTON, D.C. TO FORCE NLA TO OPEN ITS BOOKS AND RECORDS TO THE MEMBERS, TO ENJOIN (STOP) THE UNLAWFUL ELECTION PROCESS, OR TO SET ASIDE ANY PART OF THE PROCESS WHICH HAS BEEN COMPLETED BY THE TIME A JUDGE RULES. And when we challenge the Nominating Committee arbitrarily trying to exclude Joe Cirruzzo, we'll have the "background" reports on the present board and officers to see if they measure up to Joe!!!
Now let's talk about something that is so lightweight that it floats three feet above the ground - NLA President Darryl Norman. This guy thinks he has power and that he carries a sharp knife. He is an ex officio member of all committees, according to the by-laws, EXCEPT THE NOMINATING COMMITTEE. So who had his fingerprints all over the work of the committee today - who influenced the committee (remember he and Joe almost came to blows in Atlantic City)? Duhhhhhhh. You got it, Darryl Norman. Norman has no right to even participate in the meeting of the Nominating Committee, nor does any other director who is not a member of the committee, but the whole board got into the show, led by Norman, all contrary to the by-laws.
Darryl Norman has to go, and go soon. First, let's see how clean this guy is or is not since he, also, thinks that the Nominating Committee is the keeper of virtue and can look into people's "backgrounds." Second, if this is the best NLA can do for a president, it's best that the last person out just turn off the lights and let's go to TLPA.
Stay tuned here - we'll have the final info on Joe Cirruzzo's candidacy here within a few days, and then it's time to torpedo this ship of fools.

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 11-16-2000).]

h we all know your still reading.
Why after getting an award was Bob allowed to leave?
Why was Goldy allowed to pay back dues?
Why is this board so afraid of Solombrino & Cirruzzo? and why not let them run and let the people decide?
Why does the executive board lie to the rest of the board?
Why is there secret meetings with the executive board that are not even being told to the rest of the board?
And to Mr. Empire himself (Zeppo) when are you going to stop playing both sides and show your true colors?
Why does anyone with a brain hate all of you?
And finally WHY WONT YOU 3 MARKS BROTHERS JUST QUIT AND DO EVERYBODY A FAVOR?
(With these 3 you spell it MARKS I would not insult the Real Marx Brothers)
For very one out there that was teetering back and forth about JHJ's agenda, well it is to clean up the NLA, but I don't think it can happen, to many good directors will start to bail out (something some of us hoped would not happen).
When guys like Solombrino start yelling "Vote for me its time we clean up the NLA and bring it back to the members" and Joe Cirruzzo who they are deathly afraid of, team up, it would have them running for the hills.

Jim more support is coming.

Here comes the TLPA (ITLA)

Lets see what the NLA has to say

[/b][/QUOTE]
************
Dear Alone Ranger

I don't think of myself as the mouth. I would be happy to talk to you but not as an unregistered ranger. My number is 1-503-881-9990. I have no problem in answering your questions. I ran on the board to help our industry and I am willing to listen to you. Step out behind the shadows and lets talk.

John Sinibaldi
NLA Board Member

P.S. Bob was a friend and I feel he did a good job considering the pressure he was under.
[/B][/QUOTE]


Dear Forum/Jim,
I have lots of comments to make about this topic but I cant do it on this forum? Have I been "silenced?"

No, not at all. What happened is that a few current NLA Directors have slandered me repeadetly by asserting that I criticized the NLA in previous posts and accused them of taking "hush money." (By the way, I am free to give my opinion on anything I choose.)

We got Michael involved who printed every single one of my posts which of course contained nothing like I was accused of writing. And yet I have been consistently slandered and called a liar by certain people who I mistakenly thought trusted and respected me.

The bottom line is that I dont have the energy to defend myself. I promise all of you that my opinions will be expressed in LCT.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jhj:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
[QUOTE]I would be happy to talk to you but not as an unregistered ranger. My number is 1-503-881-9990. I have no problem in answering your questions. I ran on the board to help our industry and I am willing to listen to you. Step out behind the shadows and lets talk.

John Sinibaldi
NLA Board Member

P.S. Bob was a friend and I feel he did a good job considering the pressure he was under.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
John - You know that this is an unfair position. The NLA board of directors has a lot of small-minded vicious people on it, and most of the people who respond privately to me and to others in connection with issues raised in these forums are afraid to come out on these issues until they're sure that a new broom is going to sweep clean. If the man raises a legitimate point, answer it - and answer it here. Nobody has done that yet.

As to Bob Scott, you know as well as I do that the buck stopped with Bob and he bears the responsibility for the mess at the NLA headquarters. He sets the culture that lets staff think they can ignore members phone calls and e-mails and cater to the directors. That culture is on its way out, along with the people who operate within it. Remember, I'm still waiting for a phone call from him from July 29 - weeks before I went on the attack. At least he has a reason not to call me now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

**********
Jim
My comment was not meant to be unfair. I was just making the point that members have access to me. Members can find me in the directory or my Limos.com profile.

John Sinibaldi
NLA Board Member

------------------

First to Wade, you know sometimes even the funeral director likes to have a little fun when he is at work.
The guys that use the alias's are just having fun before the funeral. You know what the fun part is, it is listening to board members open up cause THEY DONT KNOW WHO THEY ARE TALKING TO, they will know very soon!
And John quit playing the 2 headed dragon, how can you stand for this crap, Ranger email me, yea right, or have you been gagged to. s**t or get off the pot or get flushed with the rest of them. Answer this, what gives the Marx brother's the right to not allow a vote of the nominating committee to determine who runs?
I know Jim goes by the book, but let me ask you this, how/why did the board allow Mr Carey Int to pay back dues of $11,000 so he could run for the board, forget your bylaws this is not even ethical.
YES NLA Members, reading this you should be pissed.

Jim I'm pissed, because you beat me to it! You said it all above, the real info. How many people do you want on the door step for the lawsuit!
Earlier today I would have told a few good directors to walk, people like Cheryl, Carolyn, Barbara do not have enough support to continue fighting the Marx brothers, join the TLPA use your efforts for a good organization, but you know my guys said don't let these egg sucking dogs get away with it.

They want board members to resign, they don't want their style to be cramped.

Norman is nothing more than a power hungry puppet and is pissed that Cirruzzo pulled all his work from him and gave it to other companies.
Talk about ethics we will go there later.

Jim the 7th is Pearl Harbor Day, great day for an attack.
I will be back!
Ragu

"GO GET THEM JHJ".

In reading the latest posts, we have to take back the NLA. We cannot allow a few power hungry individuals to continue to take control over this organization.

Allowing our friends at Carey to pay $11,000 in back dues so that Carey can run for NLA office is an outrage. I see it coming, a new attempt at re-establishing the certification program (which Carey is deeply invested in) if Carey gets elected. How do you allow a company to get installed as a member after they didn't give two s**ts about being a member for all those prior years and then allowing them to run for office. They talk about whats happening in Florida about the election, this NLA election is the biggest bunch of phoney crap
that I have ever seen. I can smell the stench from a 1000 miles away.

Not allowing people like Joe Cirruzzo to run for a directorship is an outrage. If he meets the qualifications he should be allowed to run. Also, I am asking the good guys within the NLA not to resign. Hang in there, the cavalry is coming.

One more item. I can't believe that only the few people that post in this forum have an opinion about what is happening at the NLA. I know you are sitting there at your terminals reading these forums and shaking your heads. I know you can use a keyboard because you got to the forum. SPEAK-UP, let the rest of the world know how you feel about what has been going on at the NLA. You don't have to be frightened - the NLA police won't come and take away your limousines.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Mazza:
The bottom line is that I dont have the energy to defend myself. I promise all of you that my opinions will be expressed in LCT.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
A rather ominous note from someone who buys ink by the barrel and paper by the ton, I might add. The question is, however, will Ty Bobit unleash Tom Mazza if the relationship with NLA is at stake? Hint - The only way to preserve the relationship is to unleash Tom Mazza and work to get good people on the NLA board.

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 11-17-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Big Ragu:
First to Wade, you know sometimes even the funeral director likes to have a little fun when he is at work.
The guys that use the alias's are just having fun before the funeral. You know what the fun part is, it is listening to board members open up cause THEY DONT KNOW WHO THEY ARE TALKING TO, they will know very soon!
And John quit playing the 2 headed dragon, how can you stand for this crap, Ranger email me, yea right, or have you been gagged to. s**t or get off the pot or get flushed with the rest of them. Answer this, what gives the Marx brother's the right to not allow a vote of the nominating committee to determine who runs?
I know Jim goes by the book, but let me ask you this, how/why did the board allow Mr Carey Int to pay back dues of $11,000 so he could run for the board, forget your bylaws this is not even ethical.
YES NLA Members, reading this you should be pissed.

Jim I'm pissed, because you beat me to it! You said it all above, the real info. How many people do you want on the door step for the lawsuit!
Earlier today I would have told a few good directors to walk, people like Cheryl, Carolyn, Barbara do not have enough support to continue fighting the Marx brothers, join the TLPA use your efforts for a good organization, but you know my guys said don't let these egg sucking dogs get away with it.

They want board members to resign, they don't want their style to be cramped.

Norman is nothing more than a power hungry puppet and is pissed that Cirruzzo pulled all his work from him and gave it to other companies.
Talk about ethics we will go there later.

Jim the 7th is Pearl Harbor Day, great day for an attack.
I will be back!
Ragu <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
******************
Hi Ragu

First, I have only one head. Second, its been hard to see what's been happing. I have wondered why I am on the board in the first place. In regards to the past dues, well all I can say is that I am very upset about this. Our bylaws need revision. It seems that if a member gets their dues got up and is still in good standing, they can run for the board. My question is; Where were they doing those past years? I am glad the dues are paid, but I feel that any member who falls in that status should not be allowed to run until the next year. There was no vote in this matter, its in the bylaws, which need to be amended.

On the topic of Joey, give him a call, he knows my position on this matter. I don't feel that this form is a place to be discussing personal information concerning members.

Also, lets all stop with the name calling. It doen't help solve any issues and it just makes people dig in and circle the wagons.

Hope this answers some questions. I am still pushing for the white paper and to make the board more open to the general membership.

Thanks
John Sinibaldi
NLA Board Member

------------------

For those of you out there who are not in the loop of certain information, you need to know that Joe Cirruzzo operates A Elegant Limousine, a network with affiliates in 125 cities in the U.S. and Canada, and also certain international locations. Darryl Norman's company in Charlotte, NC used to be an affiliate, until Joe bounced him. There's no love lost here, and now Norman is using his position as president of NLA to interject himself illegally into the Nominating Committee, where he has no role, to kill Joe's candidacy for director. Joe's been in this business for 30 years and has forgotten more about it than Norman knows, and Joe has done even more for the inudstry. Joe is also active in TLPA and there isn't anybody in the limousine business he doesn't know. Give him a shot and he'll be the top vote-getter - that's why the lightweights are fighting him, led by helium heels Norman. Norman is getting even with Joe Cirruzzo for bouncing him from the network, but all it's going to do is cost NLA a bunch of money to pay lawyers in one helluva couirt fight that will probably be inked from one end of the industry to the other. These rogue directors are going to crash and burn - only question is, will they take NLA with them, and it looks like they're going to try.

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 11-17-2000).]

Has anyone heard that Bob Scott is inking something for LimoDigest concerning his experience at NLA????? http://limos.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Can this be confirmed?

Also for those of you not in the loop, you need to know that Carey International was an NLA member and then had its membership suspended for non-payment of dues for 9 or 11 years, or something in that area of time. Then along comes Goldberg from Carey who decides he needs to run for the NLA board to try and save the certification program because it's an important tool for Carey to use to take business away from smaller companies, and he discovers that his company is not even an NLA member. So, what happens? The by-laws permit a suspended member to reinstate his/her/its membership by coughing up all past dues. So Goldberg strokes off 11Gs to NLA and buys himself a nomination for the board of directors, while helium heels Norman uses the Nominating Committee to kill Cirruzzo's candidacy. Do we want someone who didn't pay their dues to NLA and didn't care for nearly a decade to buy himself into a directorship with Norman leading the charge? I think the answer is No, and there is going to be a massive e-mail and mail campaign to keep Goldberg off the NLA board. Another little tidbit - who is helium heels Norman trying to sell his company to? Hint - it starts with a "C" and ends with a "Y."
If you sheep out there aren't offended by this yet, you must be sleazeballs.

I very much appreciate your comments and concerns, i would be happy to speak to you directly at any time that is mutually beneficial to both of us. I am a new director that was tired of complaining, so i ran for the board to see if I could do something positive for the industry, I most certainaly dont expect everyone to agree with my position on the issues facing our industry, but I do encourage people to call me to discuss there view points, so that i may learn more about the issue they want to discuss. I hope that all the comments here are in the spirit of change, for the betterment of this industry. some of it seems like just attacks on others with no positive outcome, It does strike me strange that some wont say who they are, I wonder why?
David Seelinger
Empire International ltd

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcs:
I very much appreciate your comments and concerns, i would be happy to speak to you directly at any time that is mutually beneficial to both of us. I am a new director that was tired of complaining, so i ran for the board to see if I could do something positive for the industry, I most certainaly dont expect everyone to agree with my position on the issues facing our industry, but I do encourage people to call me to discuss there view points, so that i may learn more about the issue they want to discuss. I hope that all the comments here are in the spirit of change, for the betterment of this industry. some of it seems like just attacks on others with no positive outcome, It does strike me strange that some wont say who they are, I wonder why?
David Seelinger
Empire International ltd<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
David -
It is good to see you here. So long as NLA is going into the "backgrounds" of people who want to serve on the board to try to disqualify them, without any authority to do so, don't be surprised if people don't want to be the object of a witch hunt. Don't try to mask what really goes on at the meetings of the board of directors - you well know they are vicious and that there are mean-spirited people in control of NLA. I'm sure in time, when the litigation begins, everyone will have their names on the papers. Is not revealing identity any different than closed executive sessions of the NLA board and its committees, or a "gag" rule. Why won't NLA do its business in the open, and why won't it let directors talk to members about NLA business? I think the latter is far worse - the former is self-preservation. All of the discussion here is for the eventual betterment of NLA and, hopefully, the industry. But the directors merely disregard the members here and elsewhere, so you have to abuse them and reveal them for what they are to get people to rally to oppose them and to get them to respond. You, David, are a new director and you have the industry stature and the position to change NLA - are you going to help do it. Please don't start with that tired "don't complain, do something" refrain from your keynote address in Atlantic City. Joe Cirruzzo complains and wants to do something and look what the board is doing to him. You know as well as the rest of us that the board will not let critics anywhere near a position to be effective. The Nominating Committee has one purpose, and one purpose only, to keep the control of NLA in a tight little group - but that is going to end soon. Rejecting Joe Cirruzzo and starting into people's "backgrounds" is going to bite a lot of people in a certain part of their anatomy that they sit on - just wait and watch. I'm not sure that there is a director at NLA that is clean enough to withstand where this is going. They're going to find their own "backgrounds" all over the internet in fairly short order. If you think this has gone from name-calling to downright vicious, you are right. This is a street brawl, and NLA is not going to win. But can NLA survive what is coming. We will stop background investigations when a board member resigns, but not until. We intend to run a bunch of board members out of town, but we may not be able to discriminate between the good ones and the bad ones, because that's the way "background" investigations tend to go - once started, they get a life of their own.

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 11-17-2000).]

I just got a faxed document from the lying scumbags at NLA. After the press release that announces Bob Scott's resignation with disgustingly two-faced comments about him, the following lie appears: "The following list contains the applicants for nomination for this year's board of Directors." And then they ask all members to assassinate the character of these persons by December 1. Note, these are people who have "applied" to be "nominated" to run for a directorship. Joe Cirruzzo's name is not among them. Joe filed an application, and these lying scumbags just arbitrarily excluded his application. Also, they list these people with associated "regions," contrary to the by-laws of the association.
I've now associated a lawyer friend in Arlington, Virginia who is admitted to the D.C. bar to work with me as counsel on the suit against NLA. Aside from those who have already agreed to join in this suit, any others can contact me by private e-mail. There will be no cost - we expect to recover legal fees from NLA when we prevail in shutting down this election. It's time to either stand up and be counted, or bend over and spread your cheeks for the scum on the NLA board.
Note, by the way, that Jon Goldberg of Carey International who paid the prostitutes on the board $11K to run for the board, is listed. At least he's named right, although spelled differently - "John."


[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 11-17-2000).]

Jim you again beat me to it, I just received the fax and was writing to.
This is an absolute outrage, members that buy into this must not really care.
On the fax they list the qualification to become a board member from A to D, I want to know from all you board members which one of these requirements does Joe Cirruzzo not meet and why? Speak up you bunch of slimes, lets hear it explain this one.
I want to know how you consider Jon Goldberg an active member in good standing, how do you forget to pay 9 years of dues. Get real, this is too obvious goobers.
Another thing Marx Bro's, we sent out the word to Cheryl, Carolyn, Barbara and a few others not to resign, we want them to terrorize you!! We will not let you guys sleep! The only thing better is if they all join the TLPA and blow you guys away, the TLPA would love to have them.
Don't you know they are laughing their rear ends off.
I also hope your squeaky clean because public records are great.
And one of you hypocrites made a comment at the meeting about a 900 phone number thing, not that this has anything to do with qualifications, but correct me if I'm wrong but 900 services are not illegal banana brains. (another unproven fact by the way)
Answer this board, what gives you the right to ask about anyones background? Where does this come under qualifications? Why don't you ask members how long they have to wait to get paid for a job from some of these people you have accepted.
I support Scott Solombrimo for the board, but how many companies have left that network or complain they have to wait 4 months to get their money?
Cory Rosen, who are you to ask anybody to provide a copy of a background check? The secret service? CIA? This is a friggin limousine association you buffon!
Tommy Mazza its to bad you didn't liston to some of the boys in the past, this board is not your friend, so are they after you to?
Or maybe its time for another discrimination case against Italians.
I am surprised they finally let Solombrimo in, (they had the gall to ask him if he owned his company in Cal) he will kick there asses to.
As for Mr. "Norman" Bates, how many times have you back doored clients from other limo companies that trusted you?
Ethics, yea right!
I guess the business you lost from the ELS network must really bother you, I know my company won't be sending anything your way. I hope Carey takes good care of you, as successful as they are with not being able to stay on the stock exchange and all.
If any of you think that this is just alot sour grapes your wrong, in this business you want leaders of your association with the right agenda, and thats for your best interest, these people do not have this in mind.
Jim I will be back later.

Just sent off my fax to the NLA letting them know what I think. You folks out there reading the forum - if you care about this industry let the NLA know how you feel - do something. The NLA fax machine should be running out of paper and burning up from the volume of faxes. Here is a copy of what I sent - it only takes a few minutes - let them know how you feel.


TO: National Limousine Association
Nominating Committee
Fax: 1-859-425-5077

Re: Nominations


Just received your fax. In reviewing the nominations, several items cause me great concern.

The first item of concern is that I do not feel that John Goldberg should be allowed to run for office at this time. To allow this individual to run for a directorship after his company failed to pay dues for all those many years is an affront to all members. This individual should not be allowed to buy his way onto the list of nominees. By accepting Carey's back dues payment and then immediately listing John Goldberg as a nominee for office reeks of payoff. If Carey truly wants to be a participant in the NLA election process, let time prove them out.

The second item of concern is the glaring omission of Mr. Joseph Cirruzzo from your list of nominees. Mr. Cirruzzo has probably forgotten more about the limousine business than most people currently know. He has built a major limousine network and is considered as a leader by most of the participants in this industry. There is nothing in your list of qualifications for a nominee that would eliminate Mr. Cirruzzo. He meets all requirements. Do not let petty backroom politics and personal issues prevent an individual like Mr. Cirruzzo from being added to the list of nominees and hopefully serving as a director.



[This message has been edited by RSM (edited 11-18-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ragu:
Jim you again beat me to it, I just received the fax and was writing to.
This is an absolute outrage, members that buy into this must not really care.
On the fax they list the qualification to become a board member from A to D, I want to know from all you board members which one of these requirements does Joe Cirruzzo not meet and why? Speak up you bunch of slimes, lets hear it explain this one.
I want to know how you consider Jon Goldberg an active member in good standing, how do you forget to pay 9 years of dues. Get real, this is too obvious goobers.
Another thing Marx Bro's, we sent out the word to Cheryl, Carolyn, Barbara and a few others not to resign, we want them to terrorize you!! We will not let you guys sleep! The only thing better is if they all join the TLPA and blow you guys away, the TLPA would love to have them.
Don't you know they are laughing their rear ends off.
I also hope your squeaky clean because public records are great.
And one of you hypocrites made a comment at the meeting about a 900 phone number thing, not that this has anything to do with qualifications, but correct me if I'm wrong but 900 services are not illegal banana brains. (another unproven fact by the way)
Answer this board, what gives you the right to ask about anyones background? Where does this come under qualifications? Why don't you ask members how long they have to wait to get paid for a job from some of these people you have accepted.
I support Scott Solombrimo for the board, but how many companies have left that network or complain they have to wait 4 months to get their money?
Cory Rosen, who are you to ask anybody to provide a copy of a background check? The secret service? CIA? This is a friggin limousine association you buffon!
Tommy Mazza its to bad you didn't liston to some of the boys in the past, this board is not your friend, so are they after you to?
Or maybe its time for another discrimination case against Italians.
I am surprised they finally let Solombrimo in, (they had the gall to ask him if he owned his company in Cal) he will kick there asses to.
As for Mr. "Norman" Bates, how many times have you back doored clients from other limo companies that trusted you?
Ethics, yea right!
I guess the business you lost from the ELS network must really bother you, I know my company won't be sending anything your way. I hope Carey takes good care of you, as successful as they are with not being able to stay on the stock exchange and all.
If any of you think that this is just alot sour grapes your wrong, in this business you want leaders of your association with the right agenda, and thats for your best interest, these people do not have this in mind.
Jim I will be back later.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
***************
Ragu and Jim

I thought I would try to respond to both of you in one post.

I am disturbed on the way the Joey case was handled. There was no vote on this matter. During our last phone board meeting, I asked the following question: " If the stories that were posted in the newspaper are true, there should be a record on that case with a plead on record. These items are a matter of public record. Does the NLA have such a document? The answer was no, and then I was interrupted by a statment that " It's not for us to get the document, its Joey's job to prove he did not break the law. He should provide a document to prove it."

My response was that this is impossible to do. How do you go into a court of law and ask for a letter from the judge that you have never broken any laws! It just isn't going to happen. There were several board members who supported Joey being put on the ballot. Let the membership vote.

I would also call to your attention Section C and D of the bylaws found on page 10. This area deals with members who can be suspended after a thorough investigation concerning laws that have broken in Federal, State or Muni.

The only information we have, is an article for a newspaper in New York. Hardly a thorough investigation. These charges were not proven in my mind, so this should not have every been an issue for Joey running for the board.

It would seem to me, that to run on the board as stated in section G page 13, "Active member for 2years and understand the commitment" the topic covered above concerning conduct would apply. But again, if there is proof.

I am going to break off for now. I will be back on later to respond to other concerns posted during the last few days. Again I am available by phone or e-mail to anyone.

John Sinibaldi
NLA Board Member

------------------

Since NLA is asking members to fax "complaints" about persons who "applied" to run for the NLA board so that they can be investigated, we think it's appropriate as part of our background investigations on present officers and directors for all NLA members to fax or e-mail us information about these rogues. These will be kept in strictest confidence. You may even send rumors (since NLA board seems to trade in rumors) that we can run down and see if there is anything of substance. We're looking at public civil and criminal and real estate records in places where these directors live and work, we're running the internet, newspaper morgues, asking competitors for information about their businesses, checking MVR and PUC for license and vehicle violations, fines, convictions, who is loaning money to them, everything. As this information comes in (and some of it has hit paydirt already), we'll give each director a chance to resign before any information is disseminated. Documentation will be obtained so that no director or officer is libeled (which is more than they gave Joe Cirruzzo, declaring him guilty until he proved his innocence - read John Sinibaldi's post about this presumed guilty until proved innocent approach of these morons).
On the election front (which will probably never occur, but for which we have to plan anyhow), we've got folks keying e-mail addresses for NLA members into our bulk e-mail program so we can bombard members constantly with information about the candidates that we are going to oppose, and about present directors we want to resign. We're also keying in their fax numbers into our WinFax Pro software so that during the night we can mass fax to NLA members so that we can reach those who don't have e-mail or who don't read their e-mail. Gird for war, folks, the balloon has gone up and no holds are being barred. Lots of bodies will litter the field when we're done.
If we can't get control of the board by running people like Joe Cirruzzo, then the next tactic is to elect as many as we can and force the others to resign because the vacancies created by resignation are filled by vote of the remaining directors - this is how we can get control of the board. From what we're seeing of even preliminary background information, there's going to be a lot of vacancies to fill.

Hey Jim do you mean things like a certain board member that was charged with and complained about to the NLA about running limousines with dealer/transporter license plates? Oop's.

Hey John maybe there is hope for you!

You do realize what you just did to yourself, I hope you are strong enough, you know they are reading this and now they will want your nuts.
What happen to you is not uncommon,it just like the people that want to believe wrestling is real, people want to believe the NLA consists of real people and they are not.
Just like they wanted everybody to believe HR 1689 was in the bag and sent out all eroneos information indicating such.

But tell us why wouldn't the Marx Brothers let you guy's conduct a vote?

I have to go we will talk again.

The big Ragu

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fivestaroregon:
I would also call to your attention Section C and D of the bylaws found on page 10. This area deals with members who can be suspended after a thorough investigation concerning laws that have broken in Federal, State or Muni.

The only information we have, is an article for a newspaper in New York. Hardly a thorough investigation. These charges were not proven in my mind, so this should not have every been an issue for Joey running for the board.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

John -

I'm not sure what your reference to By-Law Article 3, Section C, "Suspension and/orExpulsion" means. If someone is citing this section as a basis for ignoring Joe Cirruzzo's application, they're reliance is misplaced. First of all, this has nothing to do with nominations to run for the board. A member may run for the board so long as he is a member - period! You can't say that because someone CAN be expelled that they cannot run for director - you must expel them, and there is a procedure. This section requires notice to the member, an opportunity to respond, and a "through investigation." Unless this happens, a member remains a member and is eligible to run for the board. The second reason it is inapplicable is the typically screwed up wording of this section. It specifically says that it must be "proven" - note that NLA or someone has the burden of proof to expel a member. It also is limited to violations of "Federal, state or municipal regulations." It never says "laws," so only regulations are at issue. So you can kill your grandmother and still be an NLA member because there are no "regulations" prohibiting murder. There is a clear distinction in the law between the words "law" and "regulations." The former are enacted by Congress, state legislatures and municipal councils. The latter are adopted by agencies. The former come from the legislative branch, while regulations come from the executive branch. BIG, BIG difference. The semi-literate who wrote the by-laws strikes again!!!!! This section is irrelevant to the nomination and election of directors.
We are working on the suit papers against NLA. When complete they will be available to anyone on this forum and otherwise. We are thinking about setting up a dedicated website for NLA Democracy where documents concerning the function of NLA and suit papers are posted and available for download. This will have the additional advantage that it will be indexed by search engines and members of the public who put NLA in a search engine will be guied to our site, and the infomation on the directors' backgrounds will be available there, too, which will put them into the search engine by name - so if you put "Darryl Norman," or the name of his company, into a search engine all of the information on him and the NLA will pop up. Maybe if customers of the board members' companies start to get pulled into their nefarious NLA activities they will think twice about dealing with those companies. Thinking aloud - maybe it's time to hit these people where they live and eat.
More about this a little later.

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 11-18-2000).]

As you can tell, the fax from NLA yesterday sent me into ballistic orbit as a result of which I could not overcome the temptation to call a spade a spade, and so my choice of language tended toward the invective. But I want to add something. Obviously, the NLA board of directors is controlled by people as to whom my language is perfectly appropriate. However, it is impossible to make a distinction every time one refers to the board between those who deserve to be labled as I have labled them, and those who don't. The board falls into three categories. The morons, the good people, and those who have yet to be moved into one category or the other. And among critics, including me, there is not 100% agreement as to who falls in each category - Ron Sorci being an example (Ron has supporters, and I would be also, except for circumstances that I have mentioned on other occasions). In short, I want to make it clear that when I apply a label to the board it does not apply to EVERY member of the board - certainly MOST, but not EVERY. Of course, it's possible for "good" board members to move into the category of "bad" directors by refusing to object and their failure to "do something" about the morons. I have, for example, singled out David Seelinger as someone who has the potential to be a "good" director, but who has not moved either way yet. He is drifting into the "bad" category by "wasting" his ability and his stature in the industry and who walks around humming his mantra, "don't just complain, get involved." Eventually, a defining moment will come and he will either ride with the cavalry, or leave the board, voluntarily or involuntarily. Sitting on the fence is not an option. Please take this post as a caveat when I refer to the scumbags, liars and morons on the NLA board.
By the way, with further regard to my last post about a dedicated website, it would be also intended to use this web site to post a reform agenda for the NLA, i.e., a new set of by-laws and programs that a natioanl limousine trade association should be pursuing rather than the "stupid" stuff that NLA does now. If members, particularly the newest members, don't start to see some value for their dues, NLA will implode before it can be reformed. Current NLA management is like a pyramid scheme - the sole purpose is to recruit new members. This is OK, but "where's the beef." The press release says Bob Scott's leadership produced a 21% increase in membership - which means about 300 new members. Of course, they didn't say what the NET increase or decrease is, because members also fail to renew every year and NLA may be merely replacing members from year to year. But unless NLA delivers some value, it's cooked.
And by the way, did anyone note that in the faxed press release that came yesterday the paragraph that read: "NLA is managed by Affinity Management International, a division of Lexington-based Host Communications, Inc."? What does this have to do with Bob Scott resigning and the intention to hire a new eexecutive director? This is a propaganda flier for Host. These people don't ever miss an opportunity to promote themselves at NLA expense. This press release has Linda Bouland's fingerprints all over it - a real cheerleader for Host Communications, and the current moron in residence. A perfect example of the "Peter Principle" at work.
A last word about David Seelinger and his mantra. I complain a lot, but I'm very involved. I talk daily to numerous members and even directors (who won't admit talking to me, of course). I intend to make things happen. I am taking NLA into the courts at considerable personal expense. I am proposing new by-laws for NLA. I am proposing a new structure for NLA. I am going to force NLA to cease dealing with Host and I am going to see to it that NLA moves back to the D.C. area. I am going to see to it that Joe Cirruzzo gets on the board of NLA, as well as other good people. I am going to run a bunch of others off the board of directors. I consider myself MORE involved than David Seelinger, who has the opportunity to "do something" and isn't. How about listing your accomplishments on the board and what your agenda is, David? And let me make one thing perfectly clear - I will NEVER run for or serve as a director of NLA, PERIOD. As I have said before, I intend to be of more value on the outside of the tent pissing in than on the inside pissing out, which is what most of the directors do now. Beside, I don't suffer fools very well, and if you've ever heard of what goes on at a board meeting, I wouldn't last five minutes as crew on that ship of fools. I give a great deal of credit to those "good" directors who can tolerate the crap and not resign - but I still criticize them for tolerating the crap but doing nothing to stop it. As I have told certain directors who have talkd about resigning - you have two choices, either do the right thing and join the cavalry, or get out. Doing nothing is not an option.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jhj:
[B] John -

I'm not sure what your reference to By-Law Article 3, Section C, "Suspension and/orExpulsion" means. If someone is citing this section as a basis for ignoring Joe Cirruzzo's application, they're reliance is misplaced. First of all, this has nothing to do with nominations to run for the board. A member may run for the board so long as he is a member - period!
***************
Jim

I did not mean that this section was used to denied Joe's application. The point is, these alegations have been on the table for about four years. If Joe was found guilty by a court of law he probably would have been expelled with cause. Any member who has been expelled or suspended would not be able to run for a board seat.

John Sinibaldi
NLA Board Member

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This morning, the following letter was faxed and mailed to the president of NLA and its legal counsel. This letter is the formal demand that must be made prior to filing suit against NLA to enforce the by-laws.

[Letterhead of Pegasus Chauffeured Motor Cars]

November 18, 2000

BY FACSIMILE TRANSMISSION/ORIGINAL BY FIRST CLASS MAIL

Darryl W. Norman, President
National Limousine Association
2365 Harrodsburg Road, Suite A325
Lexington, KY 40504

Dear Mr. Norman:

Our company is a Regular Active Member of the National Limousine Association (NLA). Yesterday we received by facsimile transmission a document which identifies persons who are putative "applicants for nomination" for the NLA board of directors. Several issues are raised by this document, as well as information we have received concerning the nomination and election process.

First, we are advised by Joseph Cirruzzo of A Elegant Limousine that he applied for nomination to run for election as a director of NLA. The document which was faxed from NLA headquarters misrepresents the "applicants" in that Mr. Cirruzzo's name is not included on the list.

Second, the document correctly states the criteria for nomination for election to the NLA board (with the exception of adherence to the Code of Ethics, which is not a criteria), but we are informed that persons who have sought nomination have been excluded by the Nominating Committee on the basis of factors other than those provided in the by-laws (such as their geographic location), and that Mr. Cirruzzo has been excluded from even being identified as an applicant.

Third, the document refers to the "applicants" by "region." There is nothing contained in the NLA by-laws that interjects geographic considerations into either the nomination of election process. If NLA intends to nominate directors by region, or to elect them by region, it is in contravention of the by-laws.

Fourth, we understand that you, as President of NLA, and other directors who are not members of Nominating Committee, have interjected yourself into the nomination process although you are NOT an ex officio member of the Nominating Committee, in contravention of the by-laws. We make specific reference to the telephonic meeting this week wherein most directors participated in this process, thereby destroying the integrity and purpose of the Nominating Committee.

Fifth, the by-laws require the Nominating Committee to make its recommendation on nominees to the board by "written majority vote," and as yet there has been no such written vote.

Sixth, it appears to us that in the past NLA has not legally convened any annual meetings of the members, and has "elected" directors and officers in manners not permitted by the by-laws. The by-laws require the Nominating Committee to report its candidates no less than 90 days before the annual meeting of the members. As yet, there has been no annual meeting called. No directors or officers can be elected until an annual meeting has been called and held, and directors may not be elected except at the annual meeting held more than ninety days after the report of the Nominating Committee. Please note that the Order of Business for the annual meeting at Article 5, Section F of the by-laws specifically provides for the election of officers and directors at the annual meeting.

Seventh, in the last election there were six candidates for five directorships. None of the candidates were identified as being from a particular "region." Although the by-laws do not sanction voting by regions and presumptively require "at large" election of directors, it appears that NLA might have regionalized the candidates and counted the votes by region without advising the members that it was so doing. We believe to the extent that it did so that that election was unlawful and candidates "elected" are serving unlawfully, including yourself.

This letter is formal demand upon the officers and directors of NLA to cease and desist from the aforesaid conduct which contravenes the by-laws of the association. In the absence of corrective action by the officers and directors of the NLA to come into compliance with the by-laws, it our intention to seek redress in the courts of the District of Columbia and to enjoin the nomination and election of directors as conducted above, to require the NLA to convene an annual meeting of the members of the association in accordance with its by-laws and applicable law, to invalidate the last election of directors and each former election that may appear to have been conducted contrary to the by-laws, to invalidate action taken by any officer or board of directors not properly elected (including, without limitation, any contracts with Host Communications, Inc.), to obtain various books and records of the association, and for such other relief as the court may deem proper under the circumstances. We will also seek to recover our counsel fees and expenses incurred in derivatively enforcing the by-laws and the District of Columbia Code.

Yours very truly,

/s/ James H. Joseph

James H. Joseph, Managing Director

JHJ:bsj

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Any member who has been expelled or suspended would not be able to run for a board seat.

John Sinibaldi
NLA Board Member
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only during the two-year period of their suspension. After reinstatement, they would be eligible. Joe's character is being assassinated by an old newspaper article of dubious truth. Why wasn't he expelled from NLA if the article was true? Or does it serve the purpose better for the directors to use it for character assassination, which they are very good at? I think the answer is obvious. So now WE are going to look at "character" and see what we can see.


[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 11-18-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jhj:
Only during the two-year period of their suspension. After reinstatement, they would be eligible. Joe's character is being assassinated by an old newspaper article of dubious truth. Why wasn't he expelled from NLA if the article was true? Or does it serve the purpose better for the directors to use it for character assassination, which they are very good at? I think the answer is obvious. So now WE are going to look at "character" and see what we can see.


[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 11-18-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
****************

Jim

I agree. When the member is reinstated, that person could run for the board. As to your question as to why Joe was not expelled if the article is true. Well, I don't know. Being in my first year, I didn't even know about this article until the nomination process began. This issue should have been settled four years ago.

John Sinibaldi
NLA Board Member

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ragu:
Hey Jim do you mean things like a certain board member that was charged with and complained about to the NLA about running limousines with dealer/transporter license plates? Oop's.

Hey John maybe there is hope for you!

You do realize what you just did to yourself, I hope you are strong enough, you know they are reading this and now they will want your nuts.
What happen to you is not uncommon,it just like the people that want to believe wrestling is real, people want to believe the NLA consists of real people and they are not.
Just like they wanted everybody to believe HR 1689 was in the bag and sent out all eroneos information indicating such.

But tell us why wouldn't the Marx Brothers let you guy's conduct a vote?

I have to go we will talk again.

The big Ragu

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
*****************************

Ragu

Yes, I know what I did. Also, I am not alone.
We were not given a chance to vote or given a chance to make the motion. End of discussion.
John Sinibaldi
NLA Board Member

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As to your question as to why Joe was not expelled if the article is true. Well, I don't know. Being in my first year, I didn't even know about this article until the nomination process began. This issue should have been settled four years ago.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Duhhhhhhh. How about because there is nothing to it? There's nothing to settle after four years. It's over. We don't go around asassinating the character of people because of something a rag like the New York Post printed over four years ago. Note - this is the New York POST, not the New York TIMES! This is the National Enquirer of New York.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Yes, I know what I did. Also, I am not alone. We were not given a chance to vote or given a chance to make the motion. End of discussion.
John Sinibaldi
NLA Board Member
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uhhhhhh - let me ask a larger question. John, you are not a member of the Nominating Committee. Why were you and others who have nothing to do with the Nominating Committee involved in this discussion at all. Why was helium heels Norman involved. Just another little technicality of ignoring the by-laws? The Nominating Committee is required to vote IN WRITING. I am 100% confident that this nomination and election is so botched that it is going nowhere.

I've been advised on good authority that there was a factual inaccuracy in one of my earlier posts about LCT. It is not Ty Bobit that is at the other end of Tom Mazza's leash. That leaves only one other person to hold the leash.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ragu:
Hey Jim do you mean things like a certain board member that was charged with and complained about to the NLA about running limousines with dealer/transporter license plates? Oop's.

Hey John maybe there is hope for you!

You do realize what you just did to yourself, I hope you are strong enough, you know they are reading this and now they will want your nuts.
What happen to you is not uncommon,it just like the people that want to believe wrestling is real, people want to believe the NLA consists of real people and they are not.
Just like they wanted everybody to believe HR 1689 was in the bag and sent out all eroneos information indicating such.

But tell us why wouldn't the Marx Brothers let you guy's conduct a vote?

I have to go we will talk again.

The big Ragu

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Ragu:

I can't believe that the NLA police would allow a person that ran his cars on dealer/transporter plates and had complaints submitted against him would be permitted to run for a directorship. Not the fine, upstanding, honest people running the NLA.
They would never allow a person that ran his business like a gypsy on illegally regstered plates to achieve the office of director. The NLA would never do such a thing, would they???????

Some food for thought. Something to ponder while you sit in front of the T.V. (or computer terminal reviewing the current postings in the forum).

I really wonder? I really, really wonder????

What could have been going on at the NLA Roadshows besides presentations to the local NLA folks?

I really wonder? I really, really wonder????

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hesch (from Florida):
Some food for thought. Something to ponder while you sit in front of the T.V. (or computer terminal reviewing the current postings in the forum).

I really wonder? I really, really wonder????

What could have been going on at the NLA Roadshows besides presentations to the local NLA folks?

I really wonder? I really, really wonder????

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You mean like - hanky-panky???? C'mon, we already know about that. Why wonder?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jhj:
Uhhhhhh - let me ask a larger question. John, you are not a member of the Nominating Committee. Why were you and others who have nothing to do with the Nominating Committee involved in this discussion at all. Why was helium heels Norman involved. Just another little technicality of ignoring the by-laws? The Nominating Committee is required to vote IN WRITING. I am 100% confident that this nomination and election is so botched that it is going nowhere.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
***********
Jim

I was asked to join the nominating committee about six weeks ago. I was involved in phone discussions except for the last one on Monday November the 13th. I was attending a Carey GM meeting in DC.

During our last telephone board meeting on November 16th, part of the planned agenda was a discussion of the nominees. You have read my previous post on this subject. As to why the whole board was involved, the answer is "I don't know why." It was part of the board agenda, and nobody stopped it, including me. I had not read the bylaws in this area so I am guity of not being prepared.

John Sinibaldi
NLA Board Member

------------------


[This message has been edited by fivestaroregon (edited 11-18-2000).]

Jim I have gotton caught up on whats been going on.
This whole thing is an absolute disgrace to the intelligence of mankind.
How over the past (lets just say 5 years)does former Presidents of the NLA like George Jacobs, Greg Casteel, Alan Melton and Daryl Norman along with the board of directors forget to check and see that Carey International is still an active member with all dues paid? How does such an important person in the industry such as Mr Goldberg not make sure his dues are paid and that his name was not mistakenly omitted from the NLA directory?
Why when all that garbage with the * in the NLA membership directory if you were a Pinnacle Certified Company was going on wasn't it caught then.
I don't know what other companies due but if I know when my company has joined any organization I always check to see if I am in there book, phone numbers and addresses are right and so on.
I don't have a problem with Mr. Goldberg running but it should be done with some ethics, wait your turn like everybody else has done, in two years be my guest. Or is there some secret agenda going on?
I received my fax about the nominations, with all due respect to the people that made the most wanted list, when you get past Scott, Don and Ron what qualifications does the rest have to represent me?
I would like to know how the present board that was suppose to be looking after its members "the little guys" let the TEA 21 thing go through without notice?
Then they fight it, then they want a safety certification program, TEA 21 would be what they really want, whats up, what
are they doing? They don't know?

They have no direction and by leaving some people that were qualified off the nomination ballot shows waht they are really about.
I also have to agree that how is it possible that the committee doesn't vote or is not allowed to vote, how about Corey Rozen giving me this answer.

I believe the ballot that goes out should read, vote for the present board members that should stay.

As for Tommy Mazza he will write, Sara must print!

I can not support what is going on.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As for Tommy Mazza he will write, Sara must print!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe, but the basic problem is that Sara is an unguided missile. My personal belief is that she's in over her head. She's unlawfully sitting on the NLA board, she's afraid to take hard positions, and she's running a magazine with more of an eye toward the advertising revenue that the editorial content. In journalism that approach will bite you sooner or later. The winds of war are going to blow her away when the litigation starts, because LCT cannot ignore what is going on. LimoDigest is about to scoop LCT on the Scott situation, but it doesn't matter to Sara as long as her advertising revenue is not affected. But when NLA gets discredited and disgraced, as it will be in the next several months, this will impact on the Las Vegas Show and other things.

Dear Jim,
I hope we get the time to speak soon, I have no issue with posting my position on certain issues, you are a memeber and you should know.
I ran for the Board of Directors primaraly because I felt there was a great deal I could do to improve the NLA but I must admit that the issue that bothered me the most and pushed me to doing it, was the Certification Program. I had many questions regarding how the contract was developed between the two groups and how the program was being marketed to the travel community, as if only companies that had signed up were safe companies to use. I use the Smith System in house and I feel that it was by far much better than what they were promoting and selling. Additionally I feel that the NLA should not endorse just one of anything, but rather stick to the agenda of EDUCATION!

In regards to Mr Ciruzio, the last time they said no to him I wish then someone would of looked at the by-laws and made changes then. I dont want to play judge and jury, let the membership decide who runs, based on by-laws that are fair and speak to the majority of the membership. I would be grateful to recieve suggested changes to our current by-laws, as I am preparing some myself, I am not a attorney but I know how I want the NLA to conduct business - always in the best interest of its members. I dont know Joe to well but that doesnt matter, I wish he would have taken a different position the last time this happen (these changes could of already been on the books), if the membership feels no background should be required regardless of what it might say ,well then so be it. I do background checks on all my drivers and I think in the case of someone running for the board, as long as they dont have a Federal offense, let them run. I do not care what people have to say about a person, no decision should be made on that bases.

I also beleive that the NLA should be based in Washington and be self managed. I am working on that issue now and again please send me your comments, I assure you i will include them in my thoughts.

As to the relationship with LCT, I dont want to see anything happen to that relationship, however, I would truly like to see the NLA at both shows, there is alot to be done to get to that goal. I have my issues with Rick at Limo Digest, I know I need to try and resolve them if possible and see if we can find a way to achieve this goal.

I am writing as the President of Empire International, an operator just like you with concerns about the future of our industry and i want to see OUR NLA be all it can to the membership. I am trying to do all this in a positive manner, it is my first year, and I hope that I can make changes that will positivally affect the industry as a whole.
Regards
David Seelinger
President
Empire International ltd.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcs:
Dear Jim,
I hope we get the time to speak soon, I have no issue with posting my position on certain issues, you are a memeber and you should know.
I ran for the Board of Directors primaraly because I felt there was a great deal I could do to improve the NLA but I must admit that the issue that bothered me the most and pushed me to doing it, was the Certification Program. I had many questions regarding how the contract was developed between the two groups and how the program was being marketed to the travel community, as if only companies that had signed up were safe companies to use. I use the Smith System in house and I feel that it was by far much better than what they were promoting and selling. Additionally I feel that the NLA should not endorse just one of anything, but rather stick to the agenda of EDUCATION!

In regards to Mr Ciruzio, the last time they said no to him I wish then someone would of looked at the by-laws and made changes then. I dont want to play judge and jury, let the membership decide who runs, based on by-laws that are fair and speak to the majority of the membership. I would be grateful to recieve suggested changes to our current by-laws, as I am preparing some myself, I am not a attorney but I know how I want the NLA to conduct business - always in the best interest of its members. I dont know Joe to well but that doesnt matter, I wish he would have taken a different position the last time this happen (these changes could of already been on the books), if the membership feels no background should be required regardless of what it might say ,well then so be it. I do background checks on all my drivers and I think in the case of someone running for the board, as long as they dont have a Federal offense, let them run. I do not care what people have to say about a person, no decision should be made on that bases.

I also beleive that the NLA should be based in Washington and be self managed. I am working on that issue now and again please send me your comments, I assure you i will include them in my thoughts.

As to the relationship with LCT, I dont want to see anything happen to that relationship, however, I would truly like to see the NLA at both shows, there is alot to be done to get to that goal. I have my issues with Rick at Limo Digest, I know I need to try and resolve them if possible and see if we can find a way to achieve this goal.

I am writing as the President of Empire International, an operator just like you with concerns about the future of our industry and i want to see OUR NLA be all it can to the membership. I am trying to do all this in a positive manner, it is my first year, and I hope that I can make changes that will positivally affect the industry as a whole.
Regards
David Seelinger
President
Empire International ltd.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

David -
Your post is wonderful. I see no material difference between your positions and agenda than my own and others who are working for NLA democracy. You have our full support as an NLA director, except for one issue. You are on the Nominating Committee and if you believe the current by-laws do not inhibit Joe Cirruzzo's candidacy and want to see him nominated, then how can you sign off on any written vote by the committee which excludes him? Does this mean that you will not and have not signed off on the restricted slate of candidates. I believe that John Sinibaldi dissented from giving his blessing to any report that excludes Joe Cirruzzo, and I understand others are of like mind. If your position is truly stated, then we trust you will insure that Joe is included in the report of candidates which goes to the board, of which you are also a member.
I am absolutely delighted that you have stepped up to the plate, David. I am working on a draft of a complete new set of NLA by-laws. We should talk to compare notes. Others are providing input also. I will be in touch directly. Can you e-mail me your direct e-mail address to jhj@pegasus-pittsburgh.com or jjoseph@sgi.net.

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 11-19-2000).]

David I am also happy to see you come out with your statements. I also have had my share of being railroaded and nobody likes it.
The problem with "most" of the NLA board is that their agenda is not really for the industry it is for themselves.

They have turned all their attention to the personal side, not what is best for the association and its members, thats why I joined the TLPA, for right now they are going in the right direction.

Most of your board members are to hypocritical, they did not have a problem doing Cirruzzo's work and collecting his money.
I am not afraid to say I do his work, this company at least pays when there supposed to.
Matters not any of your boards acusations, I would not have any problems doing work for Empire either, I don't need to start doing background checks on all owners, because you know what, nobody's work would be getting done!
This has become to personal and nobody on this board wants to step up, get support and get things cleaned up with the NLA.
This board is scared to death of guys like Cirruzzo and Solombrimo and if you are what you say, then they should fear you also.

If I was Joe I would have told them to stick it along time ago, if I was Scott and they questioned me on what I owned I would have smacked the idiot that asked me.
My point being is for somebody to take this abuse from them and still try to run and do what is right, I think his agenda is properly for the members and the industry.

This is the kind of people I want representing me on a national level let him go and join along with people like Carolyn, Kay, Cheryl and Barbara. If you and Ron are truley for us then stand up and demand that this garbage stops now.
You guys keep talking about what is wrong, stop the election process, clean it up then put the people in there that will make a difference, don't tell us the bylaws wont let you do it this way, these same bylaws are not being followed now!

You sure don't see this going on with the TLPA!

Thats why Jim has gathered so much support, you can see what his agenda is, for the industry and who leads it.

For right now I am in Jims corner he has made many see the light.

Guy Mongello
Paradise of Tampa

Jim,

If you can please forward to my e-mail address (dcs@empire-int.com) your telephone number and extension I will be in touch to set up a time that we can discuss the by-laws of the association.

I welcome your input and would be happy at that time to further discuss the nominating comittee process. However, I would appreciate that discussion not include any type of character assasinations and assumtions currently posted on this site. You are obviously well versed in the associations by-laws and I am confident that we can exchange some ideas that will have a positive impact on our membership.

Lastly, there is much work to be done and everyone's opinion and point of view counts in my book. If we can work together to impact our industry in a positive forum, then I look forward to our conversation.

Regards,
David Seelinger
President,
Empire International, Ltd.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcs:
Jim,

If you can please forward to my e-mail address (dcs@empire-int.com) your telephone number and extension I will be in touch to set up a time that we can discuss the by-laws of the association.

I welcome your input and would be happy at that time to further discuss the nominating comittee process. However, I would appreciate that discussion not include any type of character assasinations and assumtions currently posted on this site. You are obviously well versed in the associations by-laws and I am confident that we can exchange some ideas that will have a positive impact on our membership.

Lastly, there is much work to be done and everyone's opinion and point of view counts in my book. If we can work together to impact our industry in a positive forum, then I look forward to our conversation.

Regards,
David Seelinger
President,
Empire International, Ltd.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

David and all my children,
Just to let you know that I have composed and sent a letter to Mr. Marrone and the NLA concerning the election process. We need to LET THE MEMBERS DECIDE who is on the ballot and who is elected. Treat everyone the same. I know that you are all upset, but please send your letters to the NLA and also the attorney to voice your complaint. I just want everyone to be treated fairly on this forum, on the ballot and as members of this organization. I am also requesting that I be present while the ballots are counted, as you know that I am always fair and that I care about you.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcs:
Dear Jim,
I hope we get the time to speak soon, I have no issue with posting my position on certain issues, you are a memeber and you should know.
I ran for the Board of Directors primaraly because I felt there was a great deal I could do to improve the NLA but I must admit that the issue that bothered me the most and pushed me to doing it, was the Certification Program. I had many questions regarding how the contract was developed between the two groups and how the program was being marketed to the travel community, as if only companies that had signed up were safe companies to use. I use the Smith System in house and I feel that it was by far much better than what they were promoting and selling. Additionally I feel that the NLA should not endorse just one of anything, but rather stick to the agenda of EDUCATION!

In regards to Mr Ciruzio, the last time they said no to him I wish then someone would of looked at the by-laws and made changes then. I dont want to play judge and jury, let the membership decide who runs, based on by-laws that are fair and speak to the majority of the membership. I would be grateful to recieve suggested changes to our current by-laws, as I am preparing some myself, I am not a attorney but I know how I want the NLA to conduct business - always in the best interest of its members. I dont know Joe to well but that doesnt matter, I wish he would have taken a different position the last time this happen (these changes could of already been on the books), if the membership feels no background should be required regardless of what it might say ,well then so be it. I do background checks on all my drivers and I think in the case of someone running for the board, as long as they dont have a Federal offense, let them run. I do not care what people have to say about a person, no decision should be made on that bases.

I also beleive that the NLA should be based in Washington and be self managed. I am working on that issue now and again please send me your comments, I assure you i will include them in my thoughts.

As to the relationship with LCT, I dont want to see anything happen to that relationship, however, I would truly like to see the NLA at both shows, there is alot to be done to get to that goal. I have my issues with Rick at Limo Digest, I know I need to try and resolve them if possible and see if we can find a way to achieve this goal.

I am writing as the President of Empire International, an operator just like you with concerns about the future of our industry and i want to see OUR NLA be all it can to the membership. I am trying to do all this in a positive manner, it is my first year, and I hope that I can make changes that will positivally affect the industry as a whole.
Regards
David Seelinger
President
Empire International ltd.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jim
I echo many of the comments made by David Seelinger, and I continue to voice my concerns that the by-laws must be followed to the highest degree until such time as they are changed.
I feel strongly on this topic and on any matter that is and was remotely a topic of debate, believe that the NLA'S in house counsel should assist the Board in determining the legal position as dictated by such by-laws.
I welcome change and hope that we can develop better ways to eliminate any issues which have remained on although probably should have been changed ages ago.
There are many guidleines which need to be established and addressed immediately and certainly many which have been written in a way to defy basic business logic.
It is common knowledge that each of the Board members signed confidentiality documents which often times hamper an individual's ability to respond with the thouroughness one would like.
I am considering a mechanism which may alleviate that issue and plan on speaking with our counsel to address how this can be rectified to the betterment of all NLA members.
I asked to become a Board member for only one reason-----to effectuate change. If that objective is comprismised or hampered to any significant degree, I will remove myself from the ballot and move on with my very busy life.
I welcome your suggestions, comments, etc and I hope that we all can work together to effectuate such changes for our industry.
I also wish to take this opportunity for us to both bury the hatchet between us and not let our mutual non apology to each other slow down any efforts to make a change to problem issues.
My email address for those interested is RPS0817@AOL.COM and I welcome all comments and thoughts on any topic which may be of concern to you.
Jim. I hope we can communicate in a constructive manner in the days ahead as well.
Ron Sorci

Things I see are still on fire, been busy lately.

Ron I first want to say that me and my boys are behind you as long as you make a stand. I know you and Jim had your problems but he is right and his agenda is for what's right, he has nothing to gain by bringing these problems out.

The best thing that should be done is put a stop to everything. THis could happen anyway with Jims lawsuit.

For Guy in Tampa, you are right about most of the people except for one and thats Kay

Since the subject of changing by-laws has come up from two directors, I want to add a comment based on some exchanges earlier with John Sinibaldi. The cure to the by-law problem is not for the directors to quickly amend the by-laws to try to make legal what they are doing. There are good reasons why the procedures being used are not sound to begin with, even if they complied with the by-laws. It's time to look at the whole method of governing NLA, and any changes in by-laws should be submitted to the membership as a whole. EITHER the board OR the members can amend by-laws, but in cases other than truly minor fine-tuning, the best practice is to put by-law changes to the vote of the members. John Sinibaldi has staked his directorship on the promise that it would be done by the members and I hope others share his view.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>For Guy in Tampa, you are right about most of the people except for one and thats Kay.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Correct. Kay is in our sights to be named personally in the suit because she is acting ultra vires - which is a Latin term used in the law to describe what happens when someone is acting beyond their legal authority. The by-laws don't let her exclude Cirruzzo, and by doing so on her own she is setting herself up for liability. When NLA gets sued, a likely response by the NLA lawyer might be - "hey, we can't make her follow the by-laws," and we aren't liable for her acting on her own. For that reason when you get into these ultra vires situations you need to sue people individually. Kay is either a real dim lightbulb, or she's doing Darryl Norman's bidding. Any ideas why?
Also, Kay got a letter from Cirruzzo's lawyer, but it was not as clear as I would have made it. Since there is no legal authority to exclude Joe, by doing so she is libeling him. I'm sure she has insurance in her business that covers libel, so she's walking around with a lawsuit target on her back for any lawyer that wants to pick her insurance company's pocket. I don't think Kay has got the message that there is a lot of serious business going on here and threats of suits, etc. is not idle chatter. Positions are very fixed and deep on this subject, especially as it affects Cirruzzo, and we're slipping ever closer into the courtroom. When that happens, things get a whole life of their own.

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 11-19-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> It is common knowledge that each of the Board members signed confidentiality documents which often times hamper an individual's ability to respond with the thouroughness one would like.
Ron Sorci<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am confounded by the confidentiality documents signed by the directors. I am confounded by why any director would sign one to begin with and expose himself to liability to the NLA, or to a member who brings a derivative action resulting from any alleged breach of one. I am even more confounded by what awful lawyer would suggest that the directors sign such a document, or was it merely a stupid director or covey of them that came up with this lunatic idea.
The law is quite clear and has been long-settled that directors have fiduciary duties to the corporation on whose board they sit. If they take action which violates that duty, including the duty of loyalty embraced within the "fiduciary" concept, the director can be held liable in damages to the the corporation, assuming thaty it suffered financial loss as a result of the director's conduct. With that legal backgound, one can only assume that the true motivation behind the confidentiality document was to "gag" the board on controversial issues, since the confidentiality documents add nothing, zero, nada to the corporation's protection. Frankly, I'd ignore it and tell NLA to go to hell if they said anything to me about speaking my mind (so long as it does not interfere with such matters as competitive bidding, etc.). NLA is too cheap to use its lawyers prophelactically when it costs very little - so who thinks they're going to bring litigation against a director for speaking his or her mind. This is all a non-issue and, by the way, the board can by majority vote extinguish the confidentiality documents, as it should. Why would it be hard to get a majority of directors to vote to reduce their personal liability - unless a majority is dumber than we even think.

Ron its about time you have something to say.
It is amazing how youse guys are finally coming out.
Big John S. there is no turning back you done pissed them off.
So now your putting together an army with Ron, Carolyn and David, you 4 just need a few more and you can turn them inside out, as NIKE says "Just Do It".

Here is a message for Carmella, if Tony finds Out, oh boy!
Where did you get them numbers! Is that how much T brought in from the garbage route? I think it might be 9 years worth of dues but not 110,000 bananas, you know if that number is right not everybody got there cut!
Ya know things is gonna get messy, I havent talked to Jim because I have been out digging and I am up to 5 that have had very interesting histories.

Carmella you know its not only T that likes his little affairs, at least with his boys he has a little "INSURANCE" nobody will talk.
You know T's buddies shouldn't be running those cars with illegal plates.

Jim I am up to 27 of my boys that are ready to make that trip to the court house.

I say lets just take them all down, I have been to war before and love it.
You Just keep that legal stuff coming, because I still like the idea of a shovel to the head.

Daryl Norman "Bates" your days are numbered, How does it feel to be on the most unloved list. I never thought anyone would pass Greg Casteel.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jhj:
[B] I am confounded by the confidentiality documents signed by the directors. I am confounded by why any director would sign one to begin with and expose himself to liability to the NLA, or to a member who brings a derivative action resulting from any alleged breach of one.
*****************
When I signed the confidentiality document, it was my understanding this was being done because of contract proposals that were being sent out. It would be unfair to make public certain bids so that other vendors could adjust their bids. I never felt it was meant to put a gag order on us. I feel what goes on in a general board meeting is open to the membership. Its in the minutes. There should be nothing to hide.

John Sinibaldi
NLA Board Member

------------------

I got back to my office late today having been at a funeral, and when I got to my mail I discovered something that is really quite sad - sadder than the funeral I attended. In my mail was the September/October 2000 LimoScene which arrived today (today, by the way, being November 20). On the front page was the title of an article called "Certification Program Moves Forward." Ordinarily this would have sent me ballistic. The certification program died in Chicago. It is dead, dead, dead, but the poor people in Lexington who have titles and jobs at NLA to run the CTCP don't seem to know it, and Host wants to breath life in it so they can charge NLA more money to manage it. The whole approach by the Lexington cheerleaders to give this program mouth to mouth rescucitation is actually pitiful, and sad. So sad. Then I looked at the article on HR 1689 and what a great job NLA did - but that bill is as dead as the CTCP, and this article is an embarassment. Bud Shuster has got HR1689 in a camouflaged lockbox in his office and NLA can't even find it, let alone open it. And then I read the drivel from Darryl Norman that is supposed to inspire us, and I found it very sad, too - that the president at NLA has nothing to say except drivel. And then there's the whoopla from Michelle Rossi about the too-expensive roadshows that accomplish little except to deplete the NLA treasury, all of which articles read the same except to insert the names of a couple of new cities and hotels, and I found it sad. It was sadder that on November 20 she was alerting us to the "upcoming" road shows on October 4 and November 5. But below her boilerplate hoopla was an article that tells us how our chauffeurs should dress - spare me - this is sad, too. Perhaps one of the saddest pages was the horribly designed "Membership Survey" - which, frankly, we should all fill out and return so NLA knows how awful we think they really are. But the very, very saddest part is in the Membership Survey when they ask us to rate the benefits/services offered by NLA - here's what this list includes: (1) NLA website; (2) Membership Directory; (3) LimoScene Newsletter; (4) NLA/LCT Show; (5) Roadshows; (6) Legislative representation; and (7) Endorsed vendor program. Is it me, or does this list make you sad, too? The most valuable thing on the list is the Membership Directory. The NLA website was abyssmal for years, and has now attained mediocrity. The LimoScene newsletter is an incredible bore and a waste of money to print drivel on an expensive, slick, too-expensive-to-mail paper stock, in at least two unnecessary colors, no less. The roadshows aren't a service to all of the members, but at best reach a few hundred - these are, plain and simple, a tool to recruit new members to replace non-renewing members to generate revenue to run more roadshows, pay to lobby for legislation that is dead and conduct board meetings all over the country at ridiculous expense. The NLA/LCT Show is run by LCT, and NLA does nothing except collect money for adding its name to the show, which money it spends for roadshows, to print the LimoScene and conduct director's meetings around the country at considerable expense. The endorsed vendor program is a travesty and a rip-off. It is rife with conflicts of interest and too-high-prices to pay the NLA rebate (which NLA uses to pay for road shows, to print the LimoScene, etc., etc - you've heard it before), and full of cozy deals. And I don't even want to talk about the article "International News" which is of particular interest to all of us who jet off to Paris every month for shopping, and is written by an NLA director who doesn't control a single vehicle and shouldn't be on the board at all. All of this makes me very sad, because this is what passes for the activities of a national trade association. Look at TLPA by comparison. There is so, so much that NLA could do, and it does little or nothing. Where's the beef? Is it a mystery why 90% of the industry are not members of NLA? Duhhhhhhhhh.
Time for my mantra: Get rid of Scott & Company (whoops, I forgot, he's gone), get rid of Host, move NLA to Washington, hire good, experienced and qualified staff, and install a new set of by-laws to provide for openness and democracy and encourage participation. Out of this will spring a good limousine trade association, but not until.

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 11-20-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RPS:
Jim
I asked to become a Board member for only one reason-----to effectuate change. If that objective is comprismised or hampered to any significant degree, I will remove myself from the ballot and move on with my very busy life.
I welcome your suggestions, comments, etc and I hope that we all can work together to effectuate such changes for our industry.
I also wish to take this opportunity for us to both bury the hatchet between us and not let our mutual non apology to each other slow down any efforts to make a change to problem issues.
Jim. I hope we can communicate in a constructive manner in the days ahead as well.
Ron Sorci
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ron -
Mark Twain once said, "Nobody forgets where they buried a hatchet," but I'm willing to bury it nonetheless if your post is more than NLA election year overtures. We can do business, and that was the position I took in Chicago. I do know when to do business, and with whom. And this whole NLA thing is, after all, strictly business.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcs:
Dear Jim,
Additionally I feel that the NLA should not endorse just one of anything, but rather stick to the agenda of EDUCATION!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is my hot button, and if you scroll back through these forums you will find my musings about what a "jhj-designed" NLA should look like and, as I recall, you'll find some discussion about a "campus-like" location with educational facilities, software demonstrations, etc. Feel free to scroll back since this is quite some time before you popped up here.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I also believe that the NLA should be based in Washington and be self managed. I am working on that issue now and again please send me your comments, I assure you i will include them in my thoughts. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It almost sounds like you are running for the board this year instead of last. All I can say is, Amen.

John there should not be any gag orders for any reason period. Even contracts that the NLA is considering should be put in news letters for members to view.

There is nothing going to change until bylaws get changed, as Jim has said these bylaws need more then tweaking.

I feel this board needs to go and but one good thing is some of them are at the end of their term so they will go anyway. The bad ones are not going to let the bylaws change to harm themselves or their buds, so when this gets done is anybody's quess.

I have always felt the region set up was o k just put it in the bylaws that way. I was talking with Guy in Tampa and Hesch and we would like to see a board member for each catagory from each region N,S,E and W and one more overall director. What this does is not let the large operators always rule.
Something for you to look at John.
Jim I would like your input on that idea also.
If it even matters.
I am not sure if this is even worth the effort anymore, you know it's easier dealing with the Taxicab people then the board members of the TLPA.
Daryl Norman has lost the respect of many members, and Daryl those that speak to you really don't care a bit about you, they have learned how you are.
Our group is very much in favor of the Solombrimos and Cirruzzo's, Scott is in Joe is not.
It is obvious the fear is there about Joe, so my advice is just tell them as the song goes "take this job and shove it".
Joe take your efforts and genuine concerns for the industry to an organization that will appreciate what you bring to the table.
We have made our point and keep proving them wrong.
To many deals and underhanded hypocrits!
Jim I support what your trying to do but I think along with my guys that we will just renew with the TLPA, we like their direction and the people involved and none of this garbage going on there.

We will still be there if you need us, you have accomplished one thing if nothing else and that is your right for this industry, no self agenda, your one of the few that cares.
There is some of us that appreciate the things you brought to light.

Oh by the way, how much do you charge an hour?

You know as those hypocrits would always have you believe, Italians always need good attorny's.

Jim I was writing when you posted, you are so right about that newsletter. I took one look at the front and seen that Certification bull it made me sick, I read no more, the cat loved the rest!
NLA get some real news like the TLPA gives you.
Now that I seen that newsletter I think I will call Joe, let him know who I am and tell him to let them have the NLA, its not worth the brain cells.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Big Ragu:
Now that I seen that newsletter I think I will call Joe, let him know who I am and tell him to let them have the NLA, its not worth the brain cells.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Don't be so quick to jump ship. We belong to TLPA, also, but NLA offers an opportunity that TLPA doesn't offer - the chance to rebuild NLA from the ground up into a "terrific" trade association. There is nothing to NLA except a hollow shell, like one of those eggs that you suck the inside out of and all that's left is a fragile shell. There are lots of people guarding the shell, but it's going to crack and break into a 1,000 tiny pieces. When it does, it presents a tremendous opportunity!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Big Ragu:
Jim I was writing when you posted, you are so right about that newsletter. I took one look at the front and seen that Certification bull it made me sick, I read no more, the cat loved the rest!
NLA get some real news like the TLPA gives you.
Now that I seen that newsletter I think I will call Joe, let him know who I am and tell him to let them have the NLA, its not worth the brain cells.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
*************************
Ragu

Like the stock market. You need to be for the long haul. Things are being worked out. The support is building to place Joe on the ballot. The nominations commitee has the necessary votes in hand now.
John Sinibaldi
NLA Board Member

------------------

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Big Ragu:
John there should not be any gag orders for any reason period. Even contracts that the NLA is considering should be put in news letters for members to view.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There is no need for any gag orders. Enforcing fiduciary duties is adequate. There are a very few times when confidentiality for a short time is important. But they are few and far between.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>There is nothing going to change until bylaws get changed, as Jim has said these bylaws need more then tweaking.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree completely. What comes to mind was an exhibit at Atlantic City by a vendor who has fiberglass front and rear ends modeled after the post-1998 Town Car that you can stick on a 1990-1997 model to make it look like a new one. Messing with the present by-laws is not even that easy. Among those of us who practice business law, there's a certain sameness to corporate by-laws - they all tend to address the same checklist of subjects, and a lot of the wording is similar from one company to another, while at the same time they are all adapted to the special needs of particular companies. The problem is that this set of by-laws don't even start out as something that we recognize. They seem to have been built up from scratch by a non-lawyer, or a very bad lawyer. It is best to scrap them in favor of something that looks and feels like a sophisticated and standard set of by-laws, and then adapt to any special needs of NLA. This is not rocket science, it merely takes an experienced attorney.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I have always felt the region set up was o k just put it in the bylaws that way. I was talking with Guy in Tampa and Hesch and we would like to see a board member for each catagory from each region N,S,E and W and one more overall director. What this does is not let the large operators always rule.
Something for you to look at John.
Jim I would like your input on that idea also.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am generally opposed to anything that restricts participation, whether it be a nominating committee, background checks (for God's sake, this is not the World Council of Churches) or regionalizing the board. The board is not a legislative body which "represents" members. It is a management body. Broad policy decisions where the differing interests of the members come into play should be addressed directly by the members. If we regionalize the board, when do we demand that "small" operators have a board member, and then "southern" operators? And what about "international" operators, and Italians? And then there's women operators, and gay operators? Don't they all deserve a voice? NO! There is no end to the slicing and dicing and anything that restricts participation can be so used. There are other ways to keep the board in line - removal by the members, for example.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Daryl Norman has lost the respect of many members, and Daryl those that speak to you really don't care a bit about you, they have learned how you are.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Helium heels Norman got in over his head. He was a first year director that didn't have the "right stuff." More importantly, he may look at you when you talk, but he doesn't listen, or, worse, he doesn't understand. He mistook being elected as a director and appointed president in the same year as a mandate of some kind, but he forgot or never knew how difficult a trade association can be. He was just the wrong person at the wrong time - a mistake. Let's correct it and move on.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We will still be there if you need us, you have accomplished one thing if nothing else and that is your right for this industry, no self agenda, your one of the few that cares.
There is some of us that appreciate the things you brought to light.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks, Ragu. I'm not trying to make my bones on the NLA, or even carve out some place for myself in the industry. I saw a bad situation and am doing my best to correct it, and then I'll move on. I'm actually far more interested in the management of transportation companies because I think there are very few companies that have brought good management skills to bear, and very little technology. One exception to what I said above. About 6 or 7 weeks ago I posted some thoughts about a very different NLA. I spoke in more detail then if you want to scroll back, but I said something to the effect that I would like to see NLA set up near Washington, DC in a campus environment (like somewhere around Frederick, MD - far enough out to keep the cost down, but close enough in to be in the legislative loop), where there could be set up an education center where regular training classes could be conducted. NLA could set up a world class chauffeur training center, and if it was good enough people would pay to attend, and pay to send their chauffeurs. Training in technology could also be provided, as well as management skills, finance, accounting and human resources. If it were set up in the right place, it could draw upon a pool of experienced people in the metro area to teach part-time at the center. I would also set up a software center where every vendor would be invited to set up a computer with his or her program and operators could come to the center and work with the programs as long as they wanted to see what worked for them. NLA could even get a sales commission on resulting software sales.
I would also like to see NLA set up committees to do some useful work, such as working on recommended forms of contracts for use in the limousine industry, such as customer contracts, corporate contracts, independent contractor agreements, etc. I would like to see a committee set performance criteria and standards for software, where we could tell the software publishers what we think should be in a software program, since they don't seem to know themselves. And we need lots of help in how to deal with employment and labor law and management issues. This sure as hell beats road shows, endorsed vendor programs and a glossy paper newsletter that is published just becauseit's supposed to come four times each year. I could get pretty excited if NLA went off in the directions I just described.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Oh by the way, how much do you charge an hour?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Regrettably, I'm not really looking for clients. I typically charge more than most limousine operators would want to pay, although I do like merger and acquisitions of companies, which we are looking to do ourselves. Over the years I've represented numerous political figures in the area, and I have always been a close adviser. I like helping good people become leaders and I stay on as an advisor - no charge. When you get into your 50s, you have a lot of good experience and you need to use it effectively and quickly, and then move on. I hope I can do the same with NLA, even if I have had to ruffle a lot of feathers, and perhaps make some enemies, along the way. The end result is all I'm interested in - I've been a litigator for too many years to be interested in my popularity rating. If NLA comes out the better for anything I've been saying or doing, or that I'm going to do, that's fine by me - enjoy it. If we are successful in getting the second coming of NLA, I hope David Seelinger, Ron Sorci, Joe Cirruzzo and others who, in fact, will be very instrumental, get all the credit. I expect to move on and fight other battles.


[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 11-20-2000).]

Jim the answer or observation about regionalizing the board was very interesting, I hope Ragu will come back to give more information on what he feels.
Besides whats wrong with an Italian director leading his gang, you have something against Italians!
As a matter of fact I think the whole board should be Italian, at least everybody would get a little piece of the action, unlike the way it is run now. Maybe some will get to move to Jimmy Hoffa's hotel, it suits them.
We could have our board meetings in Little Italy New York. Bet I can get the room cheaper.
Just kidding Jim a little humor, as it seems this board likes to stereotype.
Hey ya know that comment you made about free.
I talked to my man Hesch, he says Ragu is pissed and off the wall right now, he said something about deals, I will have to find out more he didn't know. (Don't like what the Rock is cooking)
I also know Joe cares about the industry like no other but I told the boys he should tell them to take a flying leap, don't trust the 2 headed dragons.
As Ragu said you brought much to light, we fought some things over the years, but this internet is great, you have done well!
We go as Ragu tells us, but right now he ain't taken calls.
Hey Carmella get your head out of the sauce pot, what do you know?
What do you say?
Gotta go.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Pussy B:
Jim the answer or observation about regionalizing the board was very interesting, I hope Ragu will come back to give more information on what he feels.
Besides whats wrong with an Italian director leading his gang, you have something against Italians!
As a matter of fact I think the whole board should be Italian, at least everybody would get a little piece of the action, unlike the way it is run now. Maybe some will get to move to Jimmy Hoffa's hotel, it suits them.
We could have our board meetings in Little Italy New York. Bet I can get the room cheaper.
Just kidding Jim a little humor, as it seems this board likes to stereotype.
Hey ya know that comment you made about free.
I talked to my man Hesch, he says Ragu is pissed and off the wall right now, he said something about deals, I will have to find out more he didn't know. (Don't like what the Rock is cooking)
I also know Joe cares about the industry like no other but I told the boys he should tell them to take a flying leap, don't trust the 2 headed dragons.
As Ragu said you brought much to light, we fought some things over the years, but this internet is great, you have done well!
We go as Ragu tells us, but right now he ain't taken calls.
Hey Carmella get your head out of the sauce pot, what do you know?
What do you say?
Gotta go.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't know much except I can't type right. I typed the wrong figure the other day. Almost took the house down not watching the pot. Need to concentrate on cooking and leave the men to fight this one out. Yes, Joe has been here to eat sunday dinner and he does believe in his industry. He is a good paisan and care bout us. He will work hard for u guys. But, where is he today. Haven't seen nor heard from him.

Hey Carmela one of my boys in Tampa got an interesting fax from Jonny the Nose out of S D Cal.
Seems you better watch yourself there is sombody out there that wants to jump in your sauce.
Ya know we don't need any new twosomes running around behind the doors, it could lead to an NLA road show and you could qualify to be a director, just don't let them know you run a 900 service!

Hey Jim sorry to get off track here but I ain't lettin go.
Do you have anything new to report, I now know certain dings have taken place, don't let it effect your agenda!

Hey went over to read the election forum, Mikey C got this email from Corey Rosen, give me a break, talk about a car salesman.
Hey Carmela, I know where you can go to get
them extra license plates. OOps
Gotta go see you guys later.

I just returned from our local association meeting, I heard I should check out this forum to see what has been going on, great now I can have nightmares.
To Joe and all my other friends out there, when Ron, Scott, David take back the NLA call me.
As we discussed at our meeting the members ask me to go in other directions as long as these internal problems exist with the NLA.
Joe I think you should go another route also.
This message is for Johnny the Nose, some times your right and sometimes your wrong.
Jim I will be happy to converse with you anytime.

Jim,
First of all no one is scooping me on the Bob Scott story. I wrote it myself, got the facts right and it will be mailed on Dec 27th

And lets be clear when you criticize LCT and compare us to Limo Digest, you are criticizing me.

The December magazine with my criticism of the NLA Election procedure was mailed out. Take an hour of your time and read the 3 features I wrote in December and then tell me who is putting out clearly the BEST information in this business.

And so everybody is clear, I was promoted and am in charge of the editorial content of the magazine. I have been given a green light to report on the industry as I see fit.

Some things you may think I was "silenced" on I may choose not to run because they are not interesting to the majority of our readers, at least 80 percent who are not NLA members.

Tom

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Mazza:
Jim,
First of all no one is scooping me on the Bob Scott story. I wrote it myself, got the facts right and it will be mailed on Dec 27th

And lets be clear when you criticize LCT and compare us to Limo Digest, you are criticizing me.

The December magazine with my criticism of the NLA Election procedure was mailed out. Take an hour of your time and read the 3 features I wrote in December and then tell me who is putting out clearly the BEST information in this business.

And so everybody is clear, I was promoted and am in charge of the editorial content of the magazine. I have been given a green light to report on the industry as I see fit.

Some things you may think I was "silenced" on I may choose not to run because they are not interesting to the majority of our readers, at least 80 percent who are not NLA members.

Tom<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tom -
Please don't be so sensitive and personal. There is nothing wrong with nudging you. I am familiar with editorial considerations and nudging you once in a while is just fine. I do not dispute at all what you say about the relative editorial content of LCT versus LimoDigest. I have seen what I believe is what Bob Scott is providing to LimoDigest and it is pablum. Although I characterized you as being "scooped," I wouldn't be concerned about not having an "exclusive" because it deosn't mean anything. Personally, I don't think anybody will tell the real story of Bob Scott leaving NLA.
As far as taking an hour of my time to read three articles is concenred, you and Cory Rozen must be comparing notes. He thinks I'm spending too much time on the internet, and you think I need three hours to read three articles. Let me be clear about both so that this subject doesn't come up again. I read and write for a living. I write dozens of pages of documents (letters, pleadings, contracts) every day. When I pen one of my "long" posts in limos.com, let me assure anybody who is interested that the very longest of them don't take 6 or 7 minutes. And in three hours one can read a novel. There are many people who are challenged to read and write a lot of text, but you cannot be in my profession and be one of them. And I want to add one more thing - I was told about a week ago that there are people who want to add their views to these forum topics but feel intimidated by my posts, or at least that's what I'm told. Don't be - like Tom, I do this for a living. No one is going to look down in any way on someone who posts here because they may have typographical erros, may not use capital letters, may not use lower case letters, or whatever. These forums are quick and dirty ways to get ideas on the table. This is not a legislative body where every word is taken down and printed in a journal or record. For heaven's sake, jump in and say it - that's all any of us are doing.
And, lastly, as to some things not being interesting to the 80% of LCT readers who are not NLA members, I would think a lot to do with NLA under current circumstances IS interesting to non-members because they have obviously made an affirmative decision NOT to join NLA and the current antics at NLA may not be relevant to them, but I'll bet they would find those antics at least interesting.
Again, I'm not being critical, Tom - I'm nudging.

Dear Readers, I would like to take a moment to report something that I beleive is very positive for this industry that happened today. Mr Joe Ciruzzo Sr, has accepted a position on the Legislative committee of the NLA, I am very excited to have Joe on this commitee that i also serve on. Joe, who has more years of experiance in this industry than I have birthdays, will be a positive influence to the NLA, and I am happy to have him as a advisor, and a freind, during my term as a director.
Joe has been good for this industry, and I am looking forward to his input at our meetings, on all the issues facing the NLA today.
I was sad to see him withdraw from seeking a board position, but I respect his decision, due to health reasons, but at least he will be there to help make positive changes, and I know that many memebers will feel the same as I do.
i know that many of you feel that nothing is being done to address your concerns, but I assure you that much is being done, and I am committed to making sure that the membership is always at the forefront of my agenda, As I know it is for Joe also, he made great sacrifices to make sure that this NLA find a course that is good for all of us, I commend him for that.
Regards
David Seelinger
Empire International ltd
(excuse the type error)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Pussy Pompinsiero:
Hey Carmela one of my boys in Tampa got an interesting fax from Jonny the Nose out of S D Cal.
Seems you better watch yourself there is sombody out there that wants to jump in your sauce.
Ya know we don't need any new twosomes running around behind the doors, it could lead to an NLA road show and you could qualify to be a director, just don't let them know you run a 900 service!

Hey Jim sorry to get off track here but I ain't lettin go.
Do you have anything new to report, I now know certain dings have taken place, don't let it effect your agenda!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Been busy getting ready for the Thanksgiving Dinner. You make me wonder, someone wants to get in my sauce????? Hmmp.....makes you wonder.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcs:
Dear Readers, I would like to take a moment to report something that I beleive is very positive for this industry that happened today. Mr Joe Ciruzzo Sr, has accepted a position on the Legislative committee of the NLA, I am very excited to have Joe on this commitee that i also serve on. Joe, who has more years of experiance in this industry than I have birthdays, will be a positive influence to the NLA, and I am happy to have him as a advisor, and a freind, during my term as a director.
Joe has been good for this industry, and I am looking forward to his input at our meetings, on all the issues facing the NLA today.
I was sad to see him withdraw from seeking a board position, but I respect his decision, due to health reasons, but at least he will be there to help make positive changes, and I know that many memebers will feel the same as I do.
i know that many of you feel that nothing is being done to address your concerns, but I assure you that much is being done, and I am committed to making sure that the membership is always at the forefront of my agenda, As I know it is for Joe also, he made great sacrifices to make sure that this NLA find a course that is good for all of us, I commend him for that.
Regards
David Seelinger
Empire International ltd
(excuse the type error)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think that it's important to add that as of this occurrence, a majority of the Nominating Committee supported reporting Joe as a candidate for the board. We hope that after a year of hard work on the Legislative Committee, Joe will still want to seek a board position next year. The importance of having Joe on the Legislative Committee is that he is very active in TLPA (formerly ITLA) which worked closely with Bob Scott and Barry on HR 1689. With Bob gone, NLA needs a strong liaison with the TLPA, and Joe is it.
I also want to add that over the past week or two I had been "nudging" David Seelinger with my posts to become more active on the issues that have been raised in the topics in this forum. It appears that David has become activated and, as I understand it, is coming to grips with these matters. Perhaps progress will be made soon in other areas of concern.

[This message has been edited by jhj (edited 11-22-2000).]

Jim you are absolutely right and I am being overly sensitive.

And I absolutely was not directing the "read my articles" comment to you.

I told you about a controversial item in December, I just finished another like item for January.

I would disagree about your assessment of the level of interest of our readers in the NLA. I speak personally via association events to alot of limousine operators, say around 1,000 a year, I receive thousands of phone calls and e-mails.

Most people want to know how to make more money in the business, period. I would say BJJH (Before Jim Joseph) I averaged about 5 % of my calls/contacts on the NLA, now its probably 10-15%, Thanks

Our readers

Jim,
I did in fact forget to mention that Joe will be the point person for issues between the two associations, thanks for pointing it out.
And i must admit that your nudging was a good thing, However, I certainally honor your feelings on any of the issues that you have raised on this site, and i assure you that I will continue to do that As I work on NLA matters, but I would be very gratefull if we could stop the attacks on people, I dont think it serves any purpose. Your Thoughts, or do I dare?

Alright, there goes the Italian board of directors!
I don't know, something smells in China Town (other than Carmelas sauce)with this whole thing.
Could some of the Dragons be dropping one of their heads?
As for Tommy "The Pen" Mazza don't get so edgey, everybody will shut up if they see it in print.
Carmela you have many wondering where you came from all of a sudden. This whole sauce thing is killing everybody, well almost everybody. Even Johnny the Nose is getting curious, he is not sure what family your part of.
Back to Jim and David.
Sorry I will finish later Guy has just called and is going to fill me in, he said he will make a statement after we talk.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1&quo