Cadillac or Lincoln?

Dear Operators,
I have been very fortunate to have been able to talk to some of you over the weeks and as a new potential limo operator, I was interested to hear your views as to which manufacturer makes the most reliable and trouble free car in your opinion.So is the Caddy over the Lincoln?

Thanks in advance for you help

Bob,
Do you plan on buying new or used, sedan or limo, is age of vehicle an issue, what are the laws in your area, corporate work or all occassion?

Well, I guess it's time to contribute my two cents again!
This is a subject that I have tried to get an objective answer on for some time, totally without success. Ask this question and you get all kinds of anecdotal responses. Personally, I'm not interested in whether one car is bigger or smaller, roomier or not roomier, which wheels are driven, etc. These are objective facts that can be obtained from the manufacturers, and they even are kind enough to provide comparisons in areas where there are metrics.
What I want to know is, how do the current models stack up from cost of operation and downtime? Does anybody have any hard figures on this. I know Scott Solombrino does, but he's not talking. There are very few candidates to answer this question because, first, an operator would have to have both Lincolns and Cadillacs of CURRENT vintage in his fleet in sufficient numbers for the costs to be accurate and not skewed by a bad car or two, and, two, the operator would have to have a good enough cost accounting system to be able to know himself how these two cars stack up. Does anybody know anybody in these categories? Other than Scott Solombrino, I think not, and I think that Scott's deal with Cadillac probably prevents him from sharing that information. Somebody needs to do a life-cycle cost analysis of these two cars, and the persons best situated to do it are the OEMs. The fact that they aren't doing it as a marketing device tells you something. That "something" is that they're both junk. Does anybody have anything non-anecdotal to contribute to the comparison of these two cars (I'd like to compare years 2000 and 2001 of both cars and not get enmeshed in comparisons across model years when the cars changed substantially)?
I might add something: about a month ago we started casually asking passengers which car they preferred, the DeVille or the Town Car. Of those who had rides in both, they didn't care. Of those who had not taken rides in both, they didn't care either. From a marketing standpoint, the marque is a non-issue. That leaves economics of operation.

James H. Joseph
Pegasus Chauffeured Motor Cars
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
jhj@pegasus-pittsburgh.com

All things being equal, and with a preventive maintenance program in place, I think we're at the point where it's a coin toss. For example, in my area, ther are no less than six dealers for each within a thirty minute drive so supply of new units, service and parts are readily available. And clients that notice at all appear satisfied with them both with no clear preference for one over the other.

Karl Jones

What about resale figures? Don't Cadillac's resale better?

http://www.limos.com/limoforumgraphics/bbtitle_small.gif

I have Lincoln's, but I have been looking into goin Caddy with the next change. The reasons? Caddy has more room, and actually, a much better looking, sexier unit. Hey, sex sells in everything, including limos. Caddy has a 10 passenger, and Lincoln's can only fit 8 now. We need the capacity and room. The cost of the Caddy is definately more, just for the base unit. Probably by up to $10,000.00 new depending on the coachbuilder. I have a friend who has both Caddy and Lincoln, both new or one year old. He loves the Caddy's and they sell better to customers, HOWEVER: to be honest, we can run the Lincolns on regular gas, and the Caddy's HAVE to have high test. Hey, gas is definately a factor. Also: as crappy as Lincoln has done one mileage, with the new cars only getting about 17MPH, the Caddy's are getting 9MPH! That is Painful! I have also heard some horror tales about the Caddy having anything from from blown radiator hoses to engine meltdowns to the AC units not being able to cool the car and frying. In that same vein, my 2000 Lincolns have had no less than 5 ot 6 recalls, and Ford is notorious for making poor floors that crack and end up on your drive shaft making this grinding noise. (yes, even mine) And these new cars have no power! My buddy is getting $10.00 more per hour for his Caddy's and $25-50 more per wedding. I don't know if that off sets the gas. But I am watching to see what Caddy does, and if the mileage changes, and the glitches get better, I just may jump ship. Ford will have to do something to compete with the longer car, and that might be a good thing.

Thanks for the replies, it is clear that this issue will run and run.
However being in England I have to deal with the following issues
1.we have limited mechanical backup for either marque let alone a stretch Lincoln or Cadillac.
2.To by new is appealing but we have no warranty back up after it leaves the states.
3.You cannot licence a car here once it is over five years old
On top of which we have a situation over recent years with people buying tired high mileage cars, bringing them into the U.K turning back the clock,giving them a repaint and new tyres and bingo selling at a large profit.
Lastly we also have to pay 10% duty plus a further 17.5% value added tax on top of the cost of the new or old vehicle.

So aside from the seating configurations, the flat floors and the fact that Cadillac is thought of as the American Rolls Royce here, we have to find a car that will provide trouble free running over say a 2-3 year period as a new stretch "120" Cadillac here will cost approx $80,000.
So which is the operators best friend Lincoln or Cadillac?
Once again look forward to your replies.

Many Thanks


Bob the Brit

As others have said toss a coin.
On a personal basis I have Cadillacs, they are still considered the conservative gentlemans car. A Lincoln is considered the rental fleet car.
I must add that my Cadillac Dealer is first class, even though I did not buy the Limousine from him, I have had a bad experience with a Lincoln Service Manager on one occasion and I have deleted him from my black book.
Heads or tails.

Dick

I am suprised that nobody has mentioned that Lincoln recently entered our industry with the purchase of CAREY.

At the moment I run all Lincoln,s but will graduly change as needed.

I don't build, sell, maintain, or finance vehicles
Why does Ford feel the need to enter my industry?. http://limos.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Until today we had all Town Cars (year 2000 or newer) in our fleet. We bought a Cadillac Deville today and I just got home after driving it for six hours. Some impressions:

1. The Deville has a few more gizmows and geegaws than the Continental, but most of the difference is a matter of personal preference and what you're used to. The Caddy has controls for A/C and heat on the steering wheel, as well as stereo volume control. The steering wheel is smaller in keeping with the more modern sport sedan approach (this is my preference). Having a compass as standard equipment is a plus to me, and OnStar is OK, too, although I'll tell you next year whether we'll pay to keep it. My personal car is a Chrysler LHS, so I prefer the understeer of the Caddy to the oversteer of the TC which seems to float about the road too much for my taste. The idiotic TC cupholder doesn't compare to the Caddy. The Caddy has passenger side A/C and heat controls, as well as back seat controls. And the Caddy has powerpoints in the rear passenger area, while the TC does not (a REAL PLUS according to our passengers), and we had to pay $150 each to retrofit power points in the TCs. Almost forgot, the Caddy has a stereo/cassette/cd, which is also a REAL PLUS in my book, although most operators wouldn't care. We burn our own CDs with customized music for our passengers - OK, OK, Michael, let's not raise the copyright issue - ACTUALLY, our chauffeurs burn the CDs for their own listening pleasure and our passengers sometimes overhear the music! How's that?

2. Performance-wise, the Caddy is quicker and hugs the road a bit better than the TC. It was much less tiring to drive for 6 hours than a TC, and the lumbar area of the seats are a much better fit.

3. Now, listen to this part. The dealer warned that the first 2500 miles would show considerably lower gas mileage until the engine was worn-in a bit. I left Indianapolis with a full tank and arrive in Pittsburgh (388 miles later) with an average mpg of 24.8 and 117 miles left in the tank (and the Caddy uses 87 octane). I have done the trip in reverse and the TC barely makes it to the Indiana line on a full tank of gas (headwinds are not a factor in the summer at the surface, folks), or about 330 miles (it could go a bit further but I never noticed how many miles the trip computer says are left at the fill-up, so let's give it credit for about 360 and be generous). This is a difference of about 150 miles to a tank of gas. By the way, the mileage on the TC to Indiana is over 19 and under 20.

I'll keep you posted as we proceed further with this car. My brother-in-law-partner who would sooner die than hand GM a check for anything, and who fought bitterly to keep us from buying this "piece-of-junk" says "just wait until the front-end has to be rebuilt at 70K miles." I staked my reputation on this car to buy it, so we'll see what happens.

P.S. The last three hours of the trip were in heavy rain and the Caddy tracked straight and true and exhibited no indication of hyrdoplaning. Also, last June we drove two TCs from Boston to Pittsburgh in 10 hours of rain and they, too, tracked straight and true and exhibited no tendency to hydroplane, although the oversteer built in to the TC leaves you a little queasy when breezing along in heavy rain at about 70 mph

James H. Joseph
Pegasus Chauffeured Motor Cars
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
[EMAIL]jhj@pegasus-pittsburgh.com[/EMAIL

[This message was edited by JHJ on June 02, 2001 at 09:07 PM.]

Nice review, James. I'll throw in a few tidbits as well.

Last weekend, we took out a new Deville for the weekend to drive down to Palm Springs. My observations from driving and riding in the car were equally impressive though I was vehemently determined to be objective.

Hardest thing to get used to actually was the fact that the sound system and the climate controls are reversed between the Deville and the Town Car: whenever I went to adjust the radio volume, I was actually turning up the heat! So I wound up using the steering wheel controls for everything which I found nicely arranged and much more convenient. The dual zone a/c worked really very well.

I found the power seat adjustments very interesting in that the seats cushion adjusted vertically separate from the seat back. Interesting. Seats were very comfortable and supportive, though they don't look quite as sturdy as the Lincoln's. I like that Cadillac makes rear side airbags an option.

A feature I've always wanted (for some unknown reason) exists on the Deville: all four power windows have the express down feature, not just the driver's side window. Performance-wise I found the Deville to be the front drive car most unlike a front drive car. Great performer on the highway and around town. Performance was spirited to a level perhaps equal to or a tad above the Lincoln Town Car Signature Touring Sedan. If I recall correctly, we did about 24.3 mpg down to PSP, local area and back to L.A. at the end of the weekend.

Very tight, handled wonderfully, and got a lot of attention it seems wherever we stopped. Trunk space was quite adequate.

Now I guess that's all from a personal user's perspective. For livery use, I would have absolutely no qualms about putting the Deville on the line.

The roofline to me is a little reminiscent of the pre-'98 Lincoln Town Car for rear seat head and leg room and I like the clearance of the rear doors for easy entry and exit.

The rear a/c controls seem a little low, but that's good since it keeps the center console a low profile and out of the way in the event you have three across the rear seat. The interior lights up brightly. I like the driver information display and trip computer - and like that you can switch it all off leaving only the speedometer.
All in all, a nice experience. I still think it's a little too soon to tell what the numbers will look like over time for fleet use. But I think it'll look good.

Karl Jones

Karl -

It is funny you had the same experience. I was breezing along and my cell phone rang and I had the stereo rather loud. I immediately turned down the volume and nothing happened. It took a few second to realize that I wasn't twisting the stereo volume. So after I turned down the stereo and spoke for several minutes on the phone, I noticed it was getting very cold and that the fan was going full tilt. It took another moment to realize I had been twisting the A/C down to 60-degrees. Of course I have the same problem between my LHS and TC keys where the "lock" and "unlock" are reversed. Us old guys aren't as adaptable as I used to be! At least I remember where I park the car

James H. Joseph
Pegasus Chauffeured Motor Cars
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
jhj@pegasus-pittsburgh.com

JHJ and Karl,
Are you compareing livery package TC and Caddy?

Yes

James H. Joseph
Pegasus Chauffeured Motor Cars
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
jhj@pegasus-pittsburgh.com

Dear readers!

Thanks for all your replies, I get the feeling that the caddy is more of a unique choice for operators. It is clear from various car sale lots that you are more likely to find a Lincoln Town car than a caddy.I have recently looked at the Classic Limousines "Mirage" 130 which looks amazing with a view to importing this car new.
Thanks for your replies and if anyone else has any thoughts to throw in feel free

Bob the brit

Well, here's a little update on our Cadillac experience. As you all may recall, we bought a 2001 Deville about three weeks ago. We are impressed with the car, but I'll do details later. The dealer, Lockhart Cadillac in Indianapolis, delivered the car with a non-functional cruise control, which suggests that it was not road-tested before delivery (had 14 miles on the odometer). Finally got an appointment with a local dealer and took the car out-of-fleet for the day to have the cruise control fixed. After the better part of the morning, the dealer announced that they don't know what's wrong with it and they have to order a part and we have to take the car out-of-fleet again to take it back when the part comes in. I asked if they were sure if this part would fix it, and they said "no," but they can't determine why it doesn't work until they replace this part. They claim there are no diagnostics for the cruise control, you just keep unplugging and plugging parts until you find out which one doesn't work - and, get this, it may involve multiple trips to the dealer for them to experiment. In other words, GM may have happened upon a pretty good car, but GM is still the same old GM, designing cars without diagnostic capability and dealers who don't know how to fix them. I'll keep you posted on how many trips this take and how much time the car is out of service to get fixed - if they can ever fix it. Of couirse, the other side of the coin is that although our 2000 Lincolns have never been back to a dealer for a product failure, they can find their own way to the dealer in response to recalls - Lincoln has got to be the most recalled car in history, with the Explorer running a close second. Stay tuned!

James H. Joseph
Pegasus Chauffeured Motor Cars
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
jhj@pegasus-pittsburgh.com

It has been over a week since our Cadillac dealer ordered "overnight" a part for our cruise control in our 2001 Deville and we're still waiting. Same old Cadillac - same old GM.

James H. Joseph
Pegasus Chauffeured Motor Cars
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
jhj@pegasus-pittsburgh.com

Hi lizfj,
Gee I'm taken aback at you gas mileage from both Lincoln and Caddy, sounds to me like you need a better servicing shedule or chauffeurs that don't try to beat the rest for a standing quarter mile. I still have a Fleetwood that does three times the mileage per gallon that you get and while we are on Caddys, there was a problem up to 99 on the Northstar engine, it was the mix content of the aluminum used for the heads and block, result was head gaskets blowing regularly just replacing the gasket was no good they had to be skimmed but that all changed from 2000 on. All the cars I run are Caddys whether or not its because I look after them better than most operators I don't know. all I know is that mine are out on the road covering work for other companies that run Lincolns who need me to help out while their cars are in the shop, don't get me wrong, I'm not extolling Cadillac virtues alone it could be that if I ran Lincoln on my same service shedule they too may be reliable.
The main difference for me has always been the power of a caddy engine and the difference grows along with the length of the stretch, on a 500 mile trip recently we had to subcontract another car, a new Lincoln and we had to keep stopping to wait for it to catch up, it was a 120 with 8 passengers inside, I wasn't impressed at all so I'll stick with my caddys. Maybe if ford put a 350 cube in the TC I might be tempted but the 2 valve per cylinder 4.6 tired block is very poor and quite frankly not up to the job.

Here's the update on the Caddy cruise control problem. After two weeks the selling dealer called the servicing dealer and was told (a lie, of course) that they had repaired a broken electrical connection and had no idea the cruise was not working (the work order didn't say a thing about a bad connection), then they called us and said our part was in. I refused to take the Caddu in unless they could promise me either that the new part would fix the problem or that they had all the rest of the parts to fix the cruise. They promised. Car went in, part didn't fix it, so they cannibalized another new car (took the steering column and half the damn dash out to get to harnesses) to get the parts to fix the cruise. Finally, after 4 hours, it worked, but the tech had no idea why.
Other than that problem, the car is fine except for the endemic groan in the steering that is supposed to be the subject of a service bulletin in August (it's been groaning since 1998) that GM thinks is going to fix the problem.
We remain VERY impressed with the car, VERY, VERY unimpressed with GM and dealer support.
We are now at a point where are chauffeurs argue over who gets to drive the Caddy. Does this tell you anything?

James H. Joseph
Pegasus Chauffeured Motor Cars
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
jhj@pegasus-pittsburgh.com

JHJ I'm confuseed. You say you were waiting on parts for your 2001 limo, but then in another post say that a steering problem was in the same car since 1998. what id like to know is do limo operators quote the year of their limo as the year it was stretched or the year on the plate under the bonnet, or year first registered??????

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I was never talking about a limo. I was talking about a sedan. And my reference to the steering groan existing since 1998 was that that problem was endemic to the model design since 1998, not that it existed in our vehicle since 1998. Clear yet?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lllllllimo:
JHJ I'm confuseed. You say you were waiting on parts for your 2001 limo, but then in another post say that a steering problem was in the same car since 1998. what id like to know is do limo operators quote the year of their limo as the year it was stretched or the year on the plate under the bonnet, or year first registered??????

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James H. Joseph
Pegasus Chauffeured Motor Cars
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
jhj@pegasus-pittsburgh.com