Customers double booking

[HeavenOnWheels]

Ok, I'm going to try to explain this as good as I can. I had a customer who booked our 10 passenger limo for a prom. He was notably disturbed at how much the price was, but booked it anyways. As always, we require an itinerary be sent to us before the date of the event. Just today I receive his itinerary for this Sat night for his sons prom. He has us picking up his son and his friends at his(customers) house, taking them to dinner, going back to a friend of his sons house(totally different address than customers address), picking him (sons friend) and 9 of his friends and taking them to dinner (at the same restaurant). Then taking the first party from the restaurant to prom, back to the restaurant to pick up the second party and taking them to prom as well! Finally at the end of the night, make two return trips from the Prom back.

Now, I understand that when a customer books a limo, we work for the customer. I also understand that since he booked the entire night of 7 hours, we should have no problem working the entire night. However I feel a little cheated since he did not originally tell us what his intentions were when he booked the limo in the first place. I am basically doing 2 proms for the price of one. Anyone else have this problem before? Should I just bite my tongue and say nothing? Any ideas would help!

Thanks,
J. Roman
www.HeavenOnWheels.com (http://www.HeavenOnWheels.com)

[NightOut]

I assume you have an hourly rate and a minimum amount of hours... if so, what policy did your customer violate? Sounds to me like you're keeping your car busy for 7 hours on prom night.

Not such a bad thing.

[ADAM]

We have clients hire us for their students' prom and then got out to dinner or bars while the students dance. As long as the alcohol is cleared from the car when the students are in it, what is the problem? You have to give the guy credit for figuring out how to make the evening affordable for himself. This is a much better scenario than trying to accommodate two parties with one car and splitting the pick-ups and drop-offs. They are responsible for their own delays, not you. I wish more of the people in our area would be so creative and make the evening fit their budget this way without trying to beat us up on price. Be thankful you have the booking and serve them like they are kings and queens. They will remember you and tell everyone else what a great time they had.

[gunny]

This is more of a shuttle operation then a charter with charter being defined as "transportation of a group of people who pursuant to a common purpose, under a single contract, at a fixed charge for the motor vehicle, have acquired the exclusive use of the vehicle to travel together under an itinerary either specified in advance or modified after having left the place of origin".

Your pricing was based on transporting a specific group, not groups which adds additional mileage and cost of to the transportation agreement.

[HeavenOnWheels]

Originally posted by gunny:
This is more of a shuttle operation then a charter with charter being defined as "transportation of a group of people who pursuant to a common purpose, under a single contract, at a fixed charge for the motor vehicle, have acquired the exclusive use of the vehicle to travel together under an itinerary either specified in advance or modified after having left the place of origin".

Your pricing was based on transporting a specific group, not groups which adds additional mileage and cost of to the transportation agreement.

Exactly how I see it Gunny! It was not something the customer originally told me at the time of booking nor wrote in under "comments" or any other section of our contract.

Don't get me wrong, I won't say anything to him now. He has booked it and I will honor his booking. Just wanted to get everyone's opinion on it and how to prevent it in the future!

[gunny]

You live & learn. Hope you tacked on enough to the prom pricing to help a little.

If this caught on say goodbye to FUGLY HUMMERS, other SUV's & buses & hello to sedan 120's. Why pay $250 per hour when you can pay $90 & just have the limo run groups back and forth.

[LIMOJESS]

This has happened to me before.

This will happen once in a while.

I will tell the client that we only do one party at a time. But now since it will be impossible to rebook the limo for tommorow, just suck it up and do the run.

[Salicete]

I've never had this happen, but then I always get an itinerary, and in the case of proms, a passenger list with signed prom-promise forms, before I offer a contract. That way I know exactly how many stops I will have, and exactly how many kids I will be transporting.

You might want to consider providing quotes based on a set amount of stops, charging additional fees when that number is exceeded.

This is a prom charter, not "hourly as directed," so it does appear that you got rolled; unfortunately, it sounds like you left the door open by not getting the specifics of the trip before you accepted the job.

The bottom line is, 7 hours revenue for that car; it is better than having it gather rust and birdsh**t sitting idle on the parking lot.

[Karl]

What's the problem? They book seven hours for use of the car, yet they can't use the car for seven hours? There really isn't anything to say to the guy. It's just the breaks that whoever will be working the job won't be able to put his feet up and sit on his ass for hours. Sometimes that's exactly what happens.

[Greenpala]

We had a similar case where prom kids rented a car. Only 8 out of 10 went to the prom. The other 2 wanted to use the limo as a joy ride. We said NO. You can sit in the car for 5 hrs until the prom is over or go home. They decided to stay. They tried to smuggle alcohol in and that is when they got kicked out of the limo.

Our contract states that the car is not moving from prom party location until the prom kids come out. In the contract we have it specified number of stops and that saves us a lot of headache. All packages are 10 hrs minimum with limited stops. Most kids have no problems with it.

Heaven - revise your prom contract a little and use this as a learning experience.

[Blue Diamond]

The good thing is- Kids don't pay much attention to time and are always running behind. You may get to charge for another hour. And maybe a cleanup fee. It's not over till it over!!

[TxLimoGuy]

I'd say its a smart move on the customers part and I would have no problem doing a job like that. We charge by the hour and have a minimum. Beyond that I don't care much what they do with their itinerary. Just my opinion.

[Steve W.]

All packages are 10 hrs minimum with limited stops.

Probably double the price and half the service no wonder people hate this industry, they are screwed the first time they come in contact with it!

Heaven your standard price should be based on a customer getting in your vehicle and driving around at the lowest MPG for the entire time of the contract. When they don't that's all gravy to you. If they want you to drop them go back and take their grandparents to the store you do it. It's their car for the hours they paid for. You don't get to dictate use because it's more work than you usually have to do.

However if you low balled the price below your standard charge this time (not likely for prom time) then that is on you.

And Blue diamond is exactly right. While you may have to be doing twice the normal work that does not mean you have to rush and put your vehicle and driver at risk. If they want your advice about how they should time these pick ups let them know the time you will need and be generous allowing yourself some time for clean up and a break. If they fail to ask your advice and try to cut things to the last minute you most likely will be charging overtime charges. Keep a smile on your face and do as you are told, that is the service business.

We are after all in the transportation business not the sitting back looking pretty business.

[Steve W.]

This is a prom charter, not "hourly as directed,"
I am curious Salicete what is the diffrence in your mind between these two? You charge the same hourly for both? Is 15 stops OK on an A/D but not on a prom? Is the only diffrence between the two the age of the passengers?

[David Merrill]

We did this a lot when I worked in Detroit. We would pick up the Kids, take them to Dinner, wait for them then on to the Dance. Drop them off, go back, pick up a group of Parents, take them to dinner or what ever, drop them off, pick up the Kids and take them home. Great for the Driver because most of the time it ment a double tip.

Hey a night out is an as directed. Don't really matter if it is Kids or adults. What would be the difference if a group of aduts just had you drive around for the seven hours burning gas a racking up miles? Most of the time I found the Kids behaved better than the Adults.

[HeavenOnWheels]

While it feels like I am being more scolded by some than just friendly advice, let me offer this comparison.

Just because you walked into the buffet with 5 friends and ate salads and main courses does not mean you can invite another 5 or 6 people into the restaurant to eat dessert simply because you paid for the entire meal.

I would not have a problem driving the original party from here to Oklahoma and back if that's what they wanted for the full amount of hours stopping wherever they wanted to. My problem is taking a separate prom party to dinner and prom. In all actuality, we are doing 2 proms for the price of one. (and no I did not underbid or low ball the price) And I know for a fact some of you offer pick ups and drops only for some proms and take 2 or 3 a night but price accordingly, usually coming out better sometimes than just booking one prom.

Since that was not the case, I posted this topic. Not saying I want to sit on my ass and look pretty as some of you stated. Just picking other like minded individuals in the industry.

[Steve W.]

Heaven curious if you had gotten this itinerary before you had a contract in place how would you have priced it in comparison to how you usually price it?

Sorry if I sounded a bit harsh with ya it's nothing personal just a peeve of mine around how we regularly screw the prom kids and wonder why our industry gets a bad rap.

[TxLimoGuy]

I am sure some competitor would have loved you to pass on this 7 hour booking because it two extra stops....

This post is really an opinion question. Majority of folks charge by the hour no matter what the itinerary - a few have a different policy and that is their prerogative. There is no wrong or right answer. No point in arguing how people set their policies.

[Salicete]

Originally posted by Steve W.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This is a prom charter, not "hourly as directed,"
I am curious Salicete what is the diffrence in your mind between these two? You charge the same hourly for both? Is 15 stops OK on an A/D but not on a prom? Is the only diffrence between the two the age of the passengers? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The way we organize a standard prom charter, all stops are specified in advance, and the kids onboard can not direct the driver to make additional stops, unless the parent who made the reservation approves it. No surprises on this type of trip.

Hourly as directed trips can take you anywhere, and often the driver won't know where until the client decides and tells him where to go.

I'm not arguing about the number of stops. It is the client's time once they put their money down. Many companies in this are a do limit stops on prom trips to 3 or 4 each way, and charge additional fees for more.

I this case, yes age, and the nature of the event make the two types of trips different in my mind.

In this case, the parent specified the stops, the carrier took the job, so In my opinion, the contract should be honored.

[HeavenOnWheels]

Wow, had no idea one question would strike up so much controversy! Steve W, to answer your question as to how much extra would I have charged, I don't know if I would have charged anything extra. Then again maybe I would have charged an extra $100 to $250 extra for the extra number of headaches!

Case in point I just received a call from my driver that the second party wants to be taken to the after prom and so does the first party, so now they are all just arguing outside the prom. Is it really our problem, no, I don't care one way or another who goes first, they booked two separate parties they can work it out amongst themselves. And as stated earlier by someone, if they go over their hours, I will definitely charge them the overages tonight before I go to bed!

On a final note, I'm not sure what you are talking about Steve in regards to screwing prom kids. As always, its a simple supply and demand, especially around these parts. I can also honestly say that I am one of the most competitive as well when it comes to price, only because I am fairly new to the business. Just like Holidays, special events and such, my prices do go up compared to say a weekday in mid winter!

[gunny]

Listen or, in this case read. One of the primary questions we ask when someone calls for pricing is, "how many passengers?". This is how we formulate what size or how many vehicles will be needed to do the job and at what cost.

If the prospect answers that question with 8 passengers & you price out a 120 & all agree, that is what the contract is based on. Now comes time for the gig and the customer informs you that after transporting the initial group of 8 he wants you to go to another location and transport another group of 8, it is no longer a charter of 8 but of 16 & not what the initial contractual agreement was based on.

Again, I wonder how many who run 14-20pax SUV's or buses in addition to 120's would tolerate larger groups booking the 120 at a much lower cost & use that 120 to shuttle the large group in seperate trips.

[thompsongunner06]

7 hr min is a 7 hr minimum. Now I would advise the father that there might be problems at the end of the prom because twice as many kids will be waiting for a ride at the same time. 1/2 will have to leave the prom 30-45 mins early then the last ones might be waiting on limo for 2nd run to after prom location. Thats the parents call to tell them its not your drivers fault but his cheapness. I had a kid try to tell me I had to do what ever she said(14 yr old) I pulled over at a gas station,called the mother and told her I have never had anyone be so rude to me and her ride was over.I dont put up with any snot nose like that,,I can make more money on the next phone call.

[TxLimoGuy]

As long as they meet the minimum hourly requirement for my 120" that scenario is fine with me. I'll rent the SUVs to someone else.

Much ado about nothing....Although everyone is entitled to their own viewpoint I personally don't understand why so much angst about if it is 8 people in the car the whole time or if they use it for shuttling more than 8, as long as you get it rented? I understand the problems it creates for the passengers trying to do two proms in one car - both groups cheat themselves of the full night experience, but that is their problem not mine. To each his own I guess!


Originally posted by gunny:
Again, I wonder how many who run 14-20pax SUV's or buses in addition to 120's would tolerate larger groups booking the 120 at a much lower cost & use that 120 to shuttle the large group in seperate trips.

[Limo Scene]

The beauty of the forum is that many opinions can be gleaned from the forum that may help you set policy in the future based on what is considered "normal" or "tolerable". There were surprising comments here, some statements that just don't relate well to the topic and good practical advise given. I am about to give mine.

Keep in mind that what works in Phoenix might not work in Madison, Alabama. You must set policies for yourself and your clients that help you achieve a balance of income level to headaches. I can tell you, the more income you make, the more headaches you will have. They go hand in hand. When we had four employees it was not nearly as difficult as the 74 we now have.

You can set a policy of not doing those type of runs, eliminate the headache and income both. Someone else, like me, will snatch the run up in a heartbeat. You can count on it. Tony would grab it. Marc would grab it. Karl would grab it.

One thing I find disturbing is the treatment of kids as second class citizens as opposed to seizing an opportunity to help educate and develop these potential lifelong clients by having a little patience, a little tolerance and a little respect. They are paying with the same U.S. Currency as adults are but yet you want to impose unduly rules upon them that you would never try to pull on a businessman paying the same rate with the same money. I am not talking about things that in society we don't accept or are illegal anyway such as smoking, drinking, doing drugs etc. Those are illegal in society and not unique to the limo industry.

But, a guy who rents the car for seven hours to go bar hopping may go to three bars during the night or 14 bars during the night. Of course three bars is easier on the chauffeur and the fuel bill but if he wants to hit 14 bars - so what? He paid for seven hours, it is his right to do so and your duty to deliver.

Bus companies might ask how many passengers as one of the first questions. Limo operators don't. We ask what type of vehicle you are looking for. I have a group of 8 going to opening day at Dodger Stadium tomorrow. They called and asked for a stretch SUV and are taking a 20 pax Excursion. I regulary have 2 people in a 120" and other similar configurations where the vehicle is much bigger than the party. Eventually we ask you how many passengers you have as part of the reservations process to provide adequate water, soft drinks etc. If they are over pax cap on the vehicle they have requested we must chat about it.

We specifically ask parents if there is any place they do NOT want their student to go to. As far as not rolling while the other kids are in the prom, that's bullshit. If the person who made the charter arrangements with you TELLS you to take those others cruising while he is in the prom, like or not, he is the client which means he is YOUR boss for the duration of the charter. End of story. He PAID for seven hours and those seven hours belong to him - not you. Remember, if it is not illegal, there is no reason to not do it other than YOU are being difficult to work with.
Companies that are difficult to work with seldom develop repeat business to form a solid financial foundation upon.

On the issue of comparing a buffet to this situation, let's be more realistic. We rent or charter by the hour in most cases. Hotels rent by the night. Each of us has their own unit of measurement for basing the amount charged to customers. So, let's say you rent a hotel for the night. Would you like a stipulation that you cannot take a shower lasting more than 8 minutes. You cannot flush the toilet more than 4 times during your stay. You may not use the bed more than 10 hours and the TV may not be operated for more than 5 total hours. They are ridiculous stipulations - are they not? But yet some think it is okay to put stipulations on limo charters during the time frame that was paid for at the exact same rate as an adult would pay. It is not like comparing the buffet. The price of the buffet is X.XX per person. The unit of measurement is PER PERSON and as such that PERSON can presumably eat was much as they want. If you try to bring your buddy in to eat, he must pay for his person to eat.

Have you never been to a party, a bar or a social function and become aware of a "post-party" or another party and decided to be spontaneous and go to it? Do you think this doesn't happen to 17 and 18 year olds that are attending prom? If an adult came out and said, "change of plans - we are going to such and such place", would your chauffeur not comply? Why not do the same for the kid that paid the same money for the same time frame? Why? Because you want to be difficult. There is no other logical reason to deny the request as instructed to you.

I have shared this story before. I have a client who first contacted me when she graduated from 8th grade. Next we drove her to her Quinceanera when she turned 15. Then there was high school spring proms and winter formals. Next came graduation from high school, then college. Next there was the wedding, then her parents 30th wedding anniversary, then her divorce celebration. Today, she is the Corporate Travel Manager for Area Energy (Shell Oil) and books all towncars, limousines, vans and buses. Think of all the business over the past 18 years all from treating her with respect at the age of 13.

You never know who these kids will grow up to be. My relationship with her is extraordinary but I have other clients that started with our company as teens who now are adults and continue to use my service.

You better look at the big picture and the long term effects before setting policies on people that will be considered legal adults usually within 18 months of their prom. If they have the money you are asking for, treat them the same way you would any adult paying the same price. If you don't someone else will and I guarantee you the business that does will have more cars, more employees and more money than you in the next five years.

I understand the other thread with light hearted comments about stupid prom questions. I like a good laugh now and then. I can only hope that while it races through your head, "do you want to buy the limo or charter it" as an answer to "how much is it?" that you don't say it! This is a potential lifelong client on the phone if you give them a reason to become one. Being a smart ass doesn't help develop long term relationships and no one likes a smart ass.
I hope that you will sieze the opporunity to educate them on the terms of our industry and how special it is to use luxury transportation services. THAT is the responsible this for YOU to do as an adult in this industry. Then hang up the phone and laugh your ass off at them in privacy.

[gunny]

Originally posted by Limo Scene:

Bus companies might ask how many passengers as one of the first questions. Limo operators don't. .

No Slick, Limousine Services in more upscale & happening places than 2 spoons Bakersfield California inquire to how many passengers require transportation to ensure placement of the right vehicle or vehicles based on the needs of the client. Once you have established the number needing transportation then you start offering vehicle options and selling what you have available. Something only someone who was trained by a real limousine professional would know slick. You know, those guys who crank out $100k per unit annually (120's, 100's & sedans only). http://limos.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Rupert]

Part time bartender,

well said http://limos.com/graemlins/notworthy.gif

Hope to join you for a drink one day http://limos.com/graemlins/cheers.gif

Learned lots from you on the forum and appreciate it!

Rupert
www.amadeuslimo.com (http://www.amadeuslimo.com)

[Limo Scene]

Hey Gunny - Figure this abbreviation out:

STFU!

That crap about "two spoons"?, Get over yourself. Times change and the old folks who "taught" operators have learned new tricks. There is a new generation of teachers. In case you haven't figured it out, I am a new generation teacher. People read what I write. I know this because they thank me in e-mails and letters to LCT. People listen to what I say at seminars and feel motivated and inspired. I know this because they told me so in tons of e-mails after my recent presentation. This is an "I" post and I don't care. I get so sick and tired of you running me down because of where I live. If you pulled your head out of your ass long enough you might just figure there must be a reason why the guy from "two spoons Bakersfield" has more cars than many operators in a big city. You might figure out that the guy in "two spoons" with revenues exceeding a million a year might be doing something right.
You might just want to shut your mouth long enough that you too can learn something from me because I am eager to share. I think sharing knowledge improves this industry.

I am more connected to this industry on an International level than you will ever be connected on even a regional level. The very few people that know you only know you from this forum and they sit and have cocktails when they are together and share laughs at your expense. I sit and have meals and cocktails with the people in this world that made it what it is today - Sara, Scott, Joey, Dean, Dawson, Jeff, Patty, Julie and Cheryl - while you sit posting argumentative drivel about where I live. I sponge up their knowledge, their insights and tips while you wouldn't even get an invite to one of the parties. The "greats" that made you such the man you are today......where are they? What are they doing?

If you don't have anything to say that is going answer someone's question, improve their operations or lend a helping hand then go to your corner and remain quiet. I learned first hand, face-to-face recently how sick and tired people are of your attacks on me. No one appreciates it and specially not me.

All in favor of Gunny being quiet unless he has something constructive to offer other operators, please say "AYE".

[gunny]

Originally posted by Limo Scene:
The "greats" that made you such the man you are today......where are they? What are they doing?.

When the man who started this thread reappears lets ask him if your "fabulous response" satisfied him.

As far as the "greats" who laid the foundation of the man I am today? They would scare the fark out of you & your puzzy mentors. Great exploits in the limo biz? Real heroes of character & integrity. You hit one thing on the nailhead though, my mentors were/are great men of character, integrity and courage. I know those 3 words are foreign to you, but there are folks in this world who possess these traits. Unfortunately or fortunately, not too many land up in the back of your limos.

Me laying into you? You cranked it up with the bus operator BS trying to discredit me & I fire back & like some Mary, you go crying again? Yet again, you are your mentors.

Again, address the man who started this thread and address his issues. And see if we can do it without too many I's.

Oh, almost forgot. Hey Mary, would you have the gonads to tell me to STFU face to face? Didn't think so.

[HeavenOnWheels]

Originally posted by Limo Scene:
One thing I find disturbing is the treatment of kids as second class citizens as opposed to seizing an opportunity to help educate and develop these potential lifelong clients by having a little patience, a little tolerance and a little respect. They are paying with the same U.S. Currency as adults are but yet you want to impose unduly rules upon them that you would never try to pull on a businessman paying the same rate with the same money.
-----------------------------------
On the issue of comparing a buffet to this situation, let's be more realistic. We rent or charter by the hour in most cases. Hotels rent by the night. Each of us has their own unit of measurement for basing the amount charged to customers. So, let's say you rent a hotel for the night. Would you like a stipulation that you cannot take a shower lasting more than 8 minutes. You cannot flush the toilet more than 4 times during your stay. You may not use the bed more than 10 hours and the TV may not be operated for more than 5 total hours. They are ridiculous stipulations - are they not? But yet some think it is okay to put stipulations on limo charters during the time frame that was paid for at the exact same rate as an adult would pay. It is not like comparing the buffet. The price of the buffet is X.XX per person. The unit of measurement is PER PERSON and as such that PERSON can presumably eat was much as they want. If you try to bring your buddy in to eat, he must pay for his person to eat.


Ok, lets get one thing straight. I have not said anything derogatory whatsoever to the kids nor do I make up rules for kids than for business men. No one knows what type of operation I run other than myself and I show ALL my customers the upmost respect at all times before, during and after the event. Even if they are drunk beyond belief (NOT talking about Prom kids here! I am sure someone would accuse me of giving kids alcohol as well)

Your hotel comparison it completely out of context in my opinion. If you would like to compare a hotel, try comparing it the right way. There were no "stipulations" on my part of how many stops, how many hours (other than what was agreed) how long they can watch the tv or how many songs they can play! There were not even any stipulations of how many people. I simply posed a question to see what others would do in this situation as I am sure many of you have been. The comparison of the hotel would be more like a couple rent the hotel room, decide they did not want to stay there any longer and their friends came in and stayed in it for the rest of the night. When you book a hotel room, they ask you how many GUESTS will be spending the night, one reason being due to the odds of damage to a hotel room in some ways directly relates to the number of people in the room. The more people in a room, the higher the odds something will be damaged. SAME thing applies to the limousine industry in MY OPINION. 10 passengers in one night in a 10 passenger limo is more than enough. 20 passengers in a 10 passenger limo throughout the night I feel has more odds of damaging the vehicle etc, etc, etc. Knock me if you don't agree, do not accuse me of anything.

I did obviously honor it as there was NEVER a question of doing so, and I would do it again without hesitation. However, others have stated on here that that my competitors would snatch it up in a heartbeat, which I have no doubt of. But I also keep in mind that for every call that I book, I have 10 more that I have to farm out or turn down due to being a small company. It would not have been any money lost to me whatsoever.

I do mean that with as much professionalism as possible not belittling the customers or bookings that I have but merely stating a fact.

[HeavenOnWheels]

Limo Scene, you talk much about how your a mentor and people listen to you. While I have read much of your posts and have respected you as well as many others here to great levels, I feel your posts have more of a derogatory insulting quality than most others who are here to help.

I understand I am new here but I am definitely not new to business in general. If you really wish to be seen as a man to come to when people need help, maybe you should try to refine the way you talk to people.

Just my two cents, and maybe we should just close this thread as I see it has caused more trouble than help.

[Limo Scene]

Heaven, my response included statements relative to all who have posted here on this thread - not just the original post. You explained the situtation as you saw it. You felt somewhat cheated but delivered the service as promised. I think you were upstanding to do so without comment. As for my less than professional comment, I don't really have time to explan that right now but once you have been here for a few years you will understand. I made no attempt to discredit Gunny with the bus comment. People generally have an idea what type of vehicle they have in mind when they call to charter. They know how many passengers they will have an most know what size vehicle they need. No matter what type of vehicle or how many passengers we will do our best to take the order and service the order regardless of what we have in our fleet as we have enough friends in the biz that we can find almost any size, type and color of vehicle if given enough notice. I was merely pointing out that limo companies don't generally start out with asking how many passengers you have. I probably should not have dropped to such a level. Gunny was the subject of many people at the limo show in Vegas two weeks ago and I realized then many people dislike his comments towards me and feel it is distractive to the forum so I lost my professionalism for a moment which was wrong.

My final thought remains, all those in favor of Gunny remaining quiet unless he has help to offer - please say, "AYE".

[gunny]

Originally posted by Limo Scene:
. Gunny was the subject of many people at the limo show in Vegas two weeks ago and I realized then many people dislike his comments towards me and feel it is distractive to the forum so I lost my professionalism for a moment which was wrong.

You mean I upset the Lurkers & those who don't agree with the stances I take or that I don't bow to your Holiness? I'm just totally upset & blown away.

News for you Bubba, there is a whole shitload of "active" forum participants who agree with the positions I take. Sure, you & your cronies poke fun at my antics. They probably laughed their collective asses off when I announced that I will slam Tampa with the Super Bowl. Hey Sal, are they laughing at me in MD? The NFL thinks I'm a real big joke as does the Tampa Super Bowl Delegation. My small group has official shit in the works that has not been made public that may change transportation in Florida. I'm sure that will have all you NLA/LCT folks laughing your asses off. I've stopped ranting about the NLA awhile back because it's such a pathetic organization, manned by such pathetic people it's almost criminal to beat up on them anymore.

And yes, Digest will get the scoop when it all goes down.

The Gunny fights for the troops, not the elitist.

[D. Hartson]

Quote:

The very few people that know you only know you from this forum and they sit and have cocktails when they are together and share laughs at your expense. I sit and have meals and cocktails with the people in this world that made it what it is today - Sara, Scott, Joey, Dean, Dawson, Jeff, Patty, Julie and Cheryl - while you sit posting argumentative drivel about where I live. I sponge up their knowledge, their insights and tips while you wouldn't even get an invite to one of the parties.
________________________________________________

Jim,

I disagree with this statement. So you sit and drink, you don't truly understand the game until you have visited other Limousine Operations in other states. I am talking about many! I personally would not consider Sara as an expert on the industry. She is a publisher of a Magazine. She has never owned a company! End of story. As far as Gunny is concerned, he has contributed many great statements to the forum and if you disagree, well that is your right. You seem to read statements and take them personal, you shouldn't. That is not what this is about. Also, if you disagree with Gunny, you must have disagreed with JHJ also.

The "I" factor. This forum is not about "I". It is about sharing what has worked for you. There is no perfect example of an operation that will work in the same country in different states and markets let alone the world. As you are an contributing writer like I am to a trade magazine, you need to be more general instead of know it all.

Have a Bud Light and relax. I don't see these forums as battle grounds against each other. If so, this is nothing I want to be part of.

Dave

[Limo Scene]

Dave,

It is apparent you really don't know me as well as you think. I have been to many, many operations all over the nation. Some I have visited on my own and some have paid me to be there. Many more have paid me for materials used to operate their business. Including many that post here. My involvement with LCT extends beyond just being a contributing writer but participating weekly in the production process as well as being invited to the national business meeting to plan the next 12 issues based on issues that are important to focus on.

I prefer not to argue with people but to provide my opinions and experience of continously operating and growing a limousine business for 18 straight years. I think it would be hard to share such knowledge unless you have actually done it. It starts like a little garden and over time just blossoms with care an nurturing. I think I have learned a lot and have much to share with those who ask and might like my advice. But, yes - you are right - the forum is for opinions. JHJ had many great ones and my time spent with that man in person was great as he offered great advice. But even so, where is he today? Out of the business.

While you might not think Sara is much, she is so much more than just the publisher of a magazine. On a weekly basis she is meeting with the top coachbuilders, operators of large and small sizes and advertisers who serve the industry with her finger clearly on the pulse of the industry. She is active and hands on and has consistently improved the quality of each limo show including the most recent which turned out a record attendance on the 25th anniversary of the show. I realize that a friendship bond never developed between the two of you in high school but she really is a good person despite that.

The advice I offered relative to the original post here was sound advice which I stand by despite the fact that yet another thread has been hijacked and twisted into a personal attack against me when all I tried to do was provide an opinion on what was proper and reasonable for a 7 hour charter.

I regret now wasting my time and shall certainly think twice about offering an opinion here in the future. And Dave, making comments about me taking things personally? Isn't that like the pot calling the kettle black from such a sensitive person?

Yes, I think I will go have the Bud Light you suggested. I am done with this thread. I am impressed you remember it is Bud Light. You would make a good bartender.

[Steve W.]

Salicete wrote:
> The way we organize a standard prom charter, all stops are specified in advance,
> and the kids onboard can not direct the driver to make additional stops,
While I am all for that for security reasons I do not see this as having anything to do with how the run is priced. It should not make any difference if he got the itineary a week before the contract was signed or the night before the run. In this case we are chargeing by the hour. IF you let a company CEO take your 8 passenger car out with no iteniary and possibly have 15 stops with 30 diffrent passengers then there is no reason you should not let the same scenario happen on a saturday night in prom season when most likely you are getting a premium price for your vehicle and driver anyway. If you do it any other way in my mind that is simple gouging for the simple fact that these are kids and you can get away with it.

> I'm not arguing about the number of stops. It is the
> client's time once they put their money down.
Yea we are in the same boat there.

> Many companies in this are a do limit stops on prom trips
> to 3 or 4 each way, and charge additional fees for more.
I guess they could do this because they sell a prom "package" now if this package was somehow discounted below the normal fare I would be for them charging for every stop. But we both know it is always at a premium price. And that just illustrates more what Jim was talking about how we treat them as second class customers, higher prices less service.

And thats why the question about your comment of A/D Vs. Prom. I say if your gonna do it for the CEO, do it for the kids. (all except the alchohol and hookers http://limos.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

> I this case, yes age, and the nature of the event make the
> two types of trips different in my mind.
Diffrent for the sake of security and even pricing based on demand but should not be a change in policy to descriminate against a less "desirable" type of customer.

And if any one comes back with "I would not let my corporate customers double up on passengers on rides either" then it is clear you have not run into the new breed of corporate client that is all about efeciency. They will be glad to pay your top rate for profesional service but they are going to get thier moneys worth when they do spend it. Some of the last award shows I have done in an 8 passenger limo I have taken 16 people to the show and 24 seperate ones back from it. Becoming very standard in this economy.

Thanks for the reply Saicete!

[gunny]

Originally posted by Steve W.:
And if any one comes back with "I would not let my corporate customers double up on passengers on rides either" then it is clear you have not run into the new breed of corporate client that is all about efeciency. They will be glad to pay your top rate for profesional service but they are going to get thier moneys worth when they do spend it. Some of the last award shows I have done in an 8 passenger limo I have taken 16 people to the show and 24 seperate ones back from it. Becoming very standard in this economy.


Steve,

I think, & he can correct me if wrong, the gist of HOW's post was he felt back-doored on the deal. If the customer was forthright from the start that the limo was going to be used to transport (shuttle) 2 groups vice a single group, then HOW would be in the position to price, accept or decline the job. Now he has learned from this experience and will be in a better position when he deals with potential customers in the future.

[Steve W.]

> Case in point I just received a call from my driver that the
> second party wants to be taken to the after prom and so does
> the first party, so now they are all just arguing outside the
> prom. Is it really our problem, no, I don't care one way or
> another who goes first,
And that's just the point it is not a headache to you. And why your driver even bother calling you with that is another question. (Probably just for the humor behind it) Of course this is the way this was going to turn out but if that's the way these particular people wanted to use their 7 hours that is on them not you! In the future you can advise against doing things this way and give your prospective customers this guys number so they can also find out what a cluster Fuck it turned into.

> I'm not sure what you are talking about Steve in regards
> to screwing prom kids. As always, its a simple supply and demand
Don't get me wrong I am all for you getting as much as you can for your services based on demand for your services. What the market will bear I always say. I am simply saying fairness should be the rule. Not looking for loopholes in order to get more from a particular set of customers that you would not dream of getting out of another set. This is the basis for a ethical business model that will ensure longevity and repeat business in this field.

Thanks for starting this thread Heaven, good conversation! So tell us how did this run end up for you? for your driver? Making any changes to your policy or contract?

[D. Hartson]

Quote:

While you might not think Sara is much, she is so much more than just the publisher of a magazine.
_______________________________________________

Jim,

I never said that! I have a great working relationship with Sara, I am saying she has never been behind the wheel to experience what Limousine Operators do! And I don't hold it against her!
_______________________________________________
Quote:

I prefer not to argue with people but to provide my opinions and experience of continously operating and growing a limousine business for 18 straight years.
_______________________________________________

Jim,

I have been in the Limousine Business for over 20 years! So what!
_______________________________________________
Quote:

And Dave, making comments about me taking things personally? Isn't that like the pot calling the kettle black from such a sensitive person?
_______________________________________________

You need to be less aggressive,that would make you more of a respected professional!

I am done!

Enjoy your Bud Light!


Dave

[Steve W.]

the gist of HOW's post was he felt back-doored on the deal. If the customer was forthright from the start that the limo was going to be used to transport (shuttle) 2 groups vice a single group, then HOW would be in the position to price, accept or decline the job. Now he has learned from this experience and will be in a better position when he deals with potential customers in the future.

If HOW would have quoted him a bare minimum price like 2 hours of travel and no charge for wait time in between then yea I could see him being bambozeled with all the work inbetween. But he got his standard Hourly rate for all hours. Not to much to expect that he should be working and traveling all those hours.

Oh sure he definately felt backdoored. But how is that any diffrent from a corporate customer calling for an A/D and the run turns into multiple stops and multiple groups of passengers. There should not be a distinction here. HOW is upset in his own words "like I did 2 proms in one" and I guess he will just have to get over that as we all learn in this business eventually, you cant get ALL the money!

And yes I guess he could have turned down the job and the correct itienary would have been helpful in that reguard. Just as long as he turned down similar jobs from fortune 500 hundred companies in the future as well. All I am saying is if your going to serve a market, serve it with integrity.

[HeavenOnWheels]

Boy I am almost scared to reply any more! j/k

>"If the customer was forthright from the start that the limo was going to be used to transport (shuttle) 2 groups vice a single group, then HOW would be in the position to price, accept or decline the job."

Gunny, you have it exactly right! More than likely I would have charged the same, or just a hair more for the inconvenience of the thing. Transporting 20 kids instead of 10 in one night causes a little more work, likewise 20 business men. In my eyes, there really is no difference. I don't care the age, sex, or reason for the booking.

Anyways, to answer your question Steve, my driver did call me because I wanted to know how the night was going. I knew there was going to be some kind of problem, and there was! 10 kids (the second party to take to the after-prom) was waiting outside their closed Prom doors sitting on the curb in the parking lot for over a half hour waiting for the driver to get back! Needless to say they were NOT too happy, but as I said earlier, that was not our problem/fault. The driver did apologize for being late to the father but explained that it was beyond our control. THEN this afternoon I get a call from the father thanking us for everything but questioning why it took us so long to get the second party to the post prom (apparently he received a call from one of the kids from the second party's parents complaining and his son was still in bed sleeping!). I had to explain to him that the after prom was 25 minutes away from the Prom! Do the math!

And no I did not tell him to do the math, just what I was thinking!

And no, I have not nor do I plan on making any changes to our contract. I feel that, although it may have been a little sneaky on the customers part and it caused more headaches than a regular prom rental, I hope that these are rare enough not to make a big deal.

As I sit here I just saw a movie trailer for "Prom Night," a horror movie! Just thought that was kind of funny!

[HeavenOnWheels]

Originally posted by Steve W.:
[QUOTE]If HOW would have quoted him a bare minimum price like 2 hours of travel and no charge for wait time in between then yea I could see him being bambozeled with all the work inbetween. But he got his standard Hourly rate for all hours. Not to much to expect that he should be working and traveling all those hours.

Oh sure he definately felt backdoored. But how is that any diffrent from a corporate customer calling for an A/D and the run turns into multiple stops and multiple groups of passengers. There should not be a distinction here. HOW is upset in his own words "like I did 2 proms in one" and I guess he will just have to get over that as we all learn in this business eventually, you cant get ALL the money!

And yes I guess he could have turned down the job and the correct itienary would have been helpful in that reguard. Just as long as he turned down similar jobs from fortune 500 hundred companies in the future as well. All I am saying is if your going to serve a market, serve it with integrity.

I don't have enough time to comment back to all these!

Anyways, Steve, if you booked for an AD run, and the client makes extra stops, say 3 or 4, don't you charge extra per stop? Sure if I am the driver and the client asks to stop at the gas station to get a snack, no biggie. But if he is conducting business or stopping numerous places that was not disclosed, heck yea I would charge more. $5 to $10 more per stop. Is this wrong?

As for turning it down, I wouldn't turn down any job I could handle. I just might charge different or just prepare for it differently.

[Steve W.]

Anyways, Steve, if you booked for an AD run, and the client makes extra stops, say 3 or 4, don't you charge extra per stop? Sure if I am the driver and the client asks to stop at the gas station to get a snack, no biggie. But if he is conducting business or stopping numerous places that was not disclosed, heck yea I would charge more. $5 to $10 more per stop. Is this wrong?

No, the company I work for does not and I have never heard of charging extra for stops when the car was hired hourly (or A/D or prom or whatever label you put on it). It's their car to do what they want for the time they hired. They want me to drop them off and drive around the block empty for an hour that is what i will do, stop at every corner and let them out, no problem, cruise around with no destination in mind thats OK also. I mean if I ever came to my boss and said "Yea I refused to take them there because they had already made me stop 6 times, I was tired of stopping!" I would be fired so quick! I get paid very well to make customers happy. And I guess if you are not paying your employees the same way you are going to have many unhappy customers.

You are being paid for your time you are not charging based on the amount of effort you have to put out. If that is the case what if their itinerary called for the standard 3 stops on a prom and they did not need 2 of them would you then refund some money because they made it easier for you?

Extra charges for stops are very common on transfers when the job booked is from one point to another where the charge is computed based on picking a person up in one place and ending a job at another place. These trips are usually priced at a very low margin in exchange for a short, relatively quick, and predictable use of the limo (usually meaning travel the entire time). Funny in our industry this charge is usually lower than the standard hourly rate that is usually charged even though there is more work involved (travel). This of course because these jobs usually end up or start in a high demand areas (airport or downtown) where having our cars in the area provides us a chance for economies of scale and higher profits form combining jobs for less downtime and higher utilization. Although market forces play a very important role in keeping these prices lower than usual.

So if you give a price for a job based on an hours worth of effort and they turn it into an hours and a half worth of effort then yes charge for an hour and a half.

But in this case you priced a job for 7 hours worth of time and were only expecting to put out 2 hours worth of effort. You ended up having to put out 6 hours worth of effort. In my mind your still an hour ahead and in your mind your 4 hours behind. This example you cite is the perfect reason for never being ashamed of the high price we charge for these cars. As I mentioned in my first post you should price them hourly like you will be putting out 100% effort and expenses for the entire time of the trip, because on some occasions that is exactly what will be expected of you and your employees. In other words price for "the worst case scenario"

[HeavenOnWheels]

After reading your post I reread mine and you are absolutely right Steve, I did not mean an "as directed" run but a point to point run, such as an airport run.

Our as directed runs are just that, whatever and wherever the client wants.

Sorry for the mixup!

[LimoNewbie]

Yes, it is A/Dhourly, BUT, if there were to be a question in billing for the "surprise-surprise" stops, as soon as the itinerary was received, a phone call to the client should have been placed. Now, the only problem I see a company having would the extra fuel needed for these additional stops. If you had a fuel surcharge in the contract, it would probably double, since they are doubling the stops. In some areas there might be a total of 50 miles used in transporting back and forth to destinations, house to house, to dinner, to prom, to after-prom party, etc., in doubling it would be an additional 50 miles or so on top. If it was an SUV limo, would this be cost effective for a company? The client should have been presented with this, I know that I would have tacked on additional charge for fuel. I know that most companies do bump rates just for prom, but when there are additional expenditures, fuel, for example, should the company still be expected to eat those costs? Especially when blindsided by a tightwad?

[Steve W.]

Nicole really all depends on how the fuel surcharge is applied by the company.

flat fee per run
flat fee per hour
Percentage of the hourly fee (most do it this way)
Based on mileage
Charge for actual fuel used

Also it brings in to question if the entire fuel surcharge practice is legitimately applied to each run. Fact of the matter I think most business owners are just using it as a justified reason to charge a little more even if they don't know their true cost associated with the rise in fuel prices. Sort of like "well Joe over there is getting away with 10% I will try for 5%" It would be extraordinarily fair to charge a fuel surcharge based on the actual increase in fuel for each job. But then it would not be a profit center like it is now for so many companies. For the most part it is over estimated to the customer which means a little extra for the company.

But leaving that for another post the real fundamental question then becomes when the price was quoted was the fuel surcharge based on the car running for 15 minutes out of the hour (or 25% of the time as most proms would be) or 60 minutes out of the hour (100% utilization). If your smart you would price it using the worst case scenario (100% utilization) and then if extra stops were added on how could you charge for 130% utilization? I mean your car only costs a certain maximum amount to operate if your already charging that (witch it sounds like Heaven was doing during prom season) How can you justify charging more when all they were doing was asking you to work during the time you would have been sitting still getting paid full rate? (plus full fuel surcharge)

Now if your company gives a discount to prom kids (or A/D's) for the hours they are not using your vehicle in between pick ups while still giving them exclusive use of it then yes you have every right to charge extra. But I have never head of any company offering that kind of discount! Why would they! This is what the true "Prom Package" should be, not like they are now. From what I can gather the "packages" are worse deals than the standard rate! How is that a package?

And it is irrelevant if the stops are 50 miles apart or 5 miles apart the charge in this case is based on time alone. Not distance, number of passengers or degree of difficulty of itinerary.

And calling this guy a tightwad seems a stretch to me. He paid Heavens price, complained a little but paid it. He was quoted an hourly figure with a minimum and paid it. We always scold consumers for going with the lowest price service saying "I told ya so" if things go wrong. That would be a tightwad. This guy went with a quality company and paid accordingly. I call him a paying customer not a tightwad.

Seems to me the operators who quote a premium hourly rate then try to get more when asked to do some extra work are the tightwads in this scenario.

BTW I thought of another parallel for an example. I took a date out to a top shelf restaurant in Beverly Hills and for desert ordered a $15.00 brownie with ice cream (very good). I told the waiter we would like to share it and they brought me two forks. Should I have been charged for 2 deserts since there were two people eating off the same plate? Is there a one plate per person rule like a 1 group per limo rule? Surcharge for cleaning an extra fork? If I was charged those things how likely would I have been to return to that place? In the end that is what this discussion is about.

[gunny]

Originally posted by LimoNewbie:
Especially when blindsided by a tightwad?

Way to go Nicole!!

I wouldn't be surprised if this guy called several limo ops looking to make this double party deal on a Saturday Night Prom & was repeatedly told to take a hike or was given a pricing based on what he wanted that he didn't like. By time he got to newb HOW, he was more educated on how to lay the ambush & still bitched about the price.

[LimoNewbie]

Steve, the topic of discussion, yes, I think I was on track, what company doesn't figure the costs of fuel into their operating expenses? No, the driver isn't sitting on his/her butt (which shouldn't matter anyways), you need to figure the mileage, FUEL is a seperate charge, usually a small percentage of the run, charged to each customer, but I do disagree, I believe you are comparing apples to oranges. To each their own though, in my case, I would definitely charge an added fuel charge with the double stops, driving incurred that is above average. In transporting hourly, A/D events, if they are traveling outside of the usual for my area, for instance, from Baltimore going to D.C., I would charge an additional fuel surcharge. How would this prom be any different? They are putting more miles on the vehicle, deisel (for most limo-coaches) is now $4/average, and fuel (regular) is now $3.50/average, just $1 more per gallon than last year at this time. I do consider this an added expense and am passing it on to the consumer. Most companies (not only limousine co.'s) aren't eating this additional charge and are passing it along to the consumer as well, all are in business to make money, not eat it up. I will stand behind my remark about the customer being a "tightwad", our definitions might be different? Yes, he still paid, but he also cheated the limo company and was extremely lucky he wasn't called on it. I'm a tightwad at times, I hate to pay premium prices as well, but I also know that companies have to earn a profit, so taking advantage of someone like that is just plain wrong!

[Steve W.]

I would definitely charge an added fuel charge with the double stops, driving incurred that is above average

SO nicole when I call and inquire about your limo how many miles am I allowed per hour? Whats the average? If it's a 7 hour run how many miles do I get with that before I am charged more?

And if the answer is 200 total miles. What happens if I only use the limo for 50 miles in 7 hours do I get a discount then?

[LimoNewbie]

Originally posted by Steve W.:
SO nicole when I call and inquire about your limo how many miles am I allowed per hour? Whats the average? If it's a 7 hour run how many miles do I get with that before I am charged more?

And if the answer is 200 total miles. What happens if I only use the limo for 50 miles in 7 hours do I get a discount then?

Okay, if you were to call for a quote, I would ask for destinations, etc., but prom packages are different than hourly, keep that in mind. I do believe this was an "above normal" prom booking, "double-booking", and the necessity is there for the additional fuel charge. If hourly, night out for example, I would ask the type of event, destinations, etc., if you lived in Bel Air, MD (mapquest/google it), going to Washington, D.C., I would charge you an additional % for fuel, runs are 3% surcharge upfront anyways, and I would tack on another percentage point or so. If you would be going to, and staying in, the Baltimore, MD region, you would be fine. Take it or leave it. If, once you enter the vehicle, as stated on contract, and you travel to D.C., the driver would notify dispatch immediately as this would incur the additional fee, but, if the client read the contract, they would know we are billing for this and it shouldn't come as a surpise when they wake up the next morning and find their CC has been charged for the additional fuel.

Let me try and lay this out for you, being in CA and all, if you were picking up in LA, the client wished to go to Las Vegas, would you still charge the same hourly rate, based on 10 hours, w/out additional fuel charge? Would you raise the rate to compensate? How would you handle this, and still be able to make a profit?

[David Merrill]

So if I use 5 additional gallons of fuel at $1.00 per gallon more than last year, that is $5.00. Now if I charge a 5% fuel surcharge on a $700.00 run, that is $35.00. Sounds like a good deal to me, where do I sign up.

Like Steve said, you are already charging for worse case scenario, plus a large premium for a Prom or at least you should be.

[Salicete]

Not to nay-say anyone, but having a well-written contract, clear company policies, and honest up-front fees will eliminate a lot of the issues being discussed here. Clear and efficient communication with the client before the deal is signed is imperative.

As far as fuel surcharges, it is much easier just to charge the same percentage across the board. To figure this change based on where a client goes gets to be just too objective in my opinion, and clients will feel ripped off too.

Sure our policy is like a regressive tax, and may not be as fair to those who are just going around the corner, but I find that in this business, it is how clients perceive your operating practices and procedures that can be most important.

Do we tell clients that there is an "X" percent fuel surcharge? No, we just factor that fee into our base rate and quote our hourly price. When you turn the TV on, do you need to know how every chip and relay works, or do you want to just push a button and watch your favorite program? Does McDonalds break down the per item price for “Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce cheese, pickles onions on a sesame seed bun,� or do they charge you for a Big Mac? People prefer “simple.� Is this dishonest or deceptive? No, it is just a matter of boiling the fees down to their simplest and clearest terms.

Clients have booked with us saying that they really like not getting the nickel and dime treatment for this and that surcharge, as many companies do.

The fact of the matter is that WE DO nickel and dime them, they just don't see it because their perception of our single all inclusive rate is understandable and fair. They know exactly how much the trip will cost, no surprises.

What is my point?

The client pays a price to have the use of a car and chauffeur for “X� amount of hours for “X� amount of dollars. The operator fulfills the client’s needs within the confines of the law and within the confines of any contractual agreement into which he or she and the client have entered.

As I mentioned in a pervious post, proms are a special animal and get treated differently, but my clients know the rules in advance and there are no surprises with regard to number of stops and number of passengers. Does that make me a hypocrite? No, and I admit that I treat prom trips differently, not because the clients are "less desirable," but because they are higher risk.

Did a shrewd client get the best of an operator this time? Perhaps, but the operator will still have the client’s money in his pocket at the end of the evening, and I'll bet that the operator still makes a tidy profit, despite the number of passengers or stops involved.

[Limo Scene]

To answer Nicole's question, a trip to Vegas receives no different pricing than an "as directed hourly" or "prom". I charge $90/hr. + 17% + fuel surcharge that is tiered based on distance from base. So, they would pay a fuel surcharge that the prom people would not for local use.

Why is prom treated different than any other A/D run? This is my question. Why, when they pay the same rate as adults are they treated any different? I just don't get it.......

I am telling you that I am so very grateful that I treated that 13 year old girl with respect from her 8th grade graduation. Today, at 29 years of age, she funneled $237,419.28 to us in 2007 as a travel coordinator. Can you imagine if I would have jerked her around?

They are paying the same money as adults and should be treated no differently for the same money. A/D is A/D and whoever pays the money gets to call the shots.

[HeavenOnWheels]

Originally posted by Salicete:
Not to nay-say anyone, but having a well-written contract, clear company policies, and honest up-front fees will eliminate a lot of the issues being discussed here. Clear and efficient communication with the client before the deal is signed is imperative.


In any ideal situation, my contracts and my conversations are very clear. It is when the client or customer wishes to be deceitful is a different story. Things almost always change at the last minute, even if you don't want them to. There is no preventing this most of the time. My contract would be a novel if I made a special phrase or section each time someone has tried to be tricky with their bookings.


As far as fuel surcharges, it is much easier just to charge the same percentage across the board. To figure this change based on where a client goes gets to be just too objective in my opinion, and clients will feel ripped off too.
This is true, I do not add a fuel surcharge to any of our trips, I do figure it into the price per hour and let the client know that we do not charge any additional fees such as a fuel, service etc....

However this does bring up an interesting question. Would you charge more if the pick up location was farther? If you do a trip to Vegas Limo Scene, who pays for your return trip? Do you charge from garage to garage like some or do you just build that into your price as well? If so, I can't believe you would do, say a 3 hour AD trip for $90/hr and eat the return trip, or am I wrong???

[Limo Scene]

No, you are not wrong. From my base to Vegas is 4 hours and 20 minutes (non-stop). However, we quote it as 5.0 hours as most people going to Vegas are drinking - thus the need to pee/smoke multiple times as well as stopping in Baker for Bob's Big Boy or the Mad Greek restaurant. It always takes 5.0 hours to get there. The charge then is 10.0 hours ($90 x 10 = $900) + 17% + $24 = $1077.00.

We always quote hours to get home from anywhere we go. We verbally state it. Such as San Diego would be quoted as 4.0 to get there, 4.0 to get back to Bakersfield for a total of 8.0 hours.

I will point out that these are entered as A/D's and total charge is based on total time. Our A/P transfers to LAX, ONT, BUR or LGB are a flat rate with a notation that any additional stops, pickup locations etc. is $35 each. However my sedan rate is reduced down to $40/hr but quoted as $200 for a drop off at LAX. It is based on 2.5 hours to get there and 2.5 to get back.

[Steve W.]

> I would charge you an additional % for fuel, runs are 3% surcharge
> upfront anyways, and I would tack on another percentage point or so.

Ok so I see you really have no justification for your pricing and and surcharge scheme. You kind of just go with what feels good? So if I drove around for 140 miles in the city limits of Bel Air I pay one price but if I go 140 miles out of bel air I somehow use more expensive gas?


Let me try and lay this out for you, being in CA and all, if you were picking up in LA, the client wished to go to Las Vegas, would you still charge the same hourly rate, based on 10 hours, w/out additional fuel charge? Would you raise the rate to compensate? How would you handle this, and still be able to make a profit?

Yes we would charge an hourly rate that has our standard fuel cost folded into it assuming the worst case scenario in regard to fuel costs. An hour is an hour if we be on the road driving for that hour or parked waiting for them at a restaurant. There is no such thing as a hard hour or an easy hour it's all priced like a hard hour. When you get an easy hour that's just more profit for the owner. I will explain further.


Once upon a time our company charged an hourly fee for a 120 say it was $70 an hour. That included fuel cost associated with operating it under the worst case scenario for the entire hour. We made profit and all was right with the world. Worst case was $2.50 a gallon when prices hovered around $2.00 a gallon. Now every few months we looked at the price we were paying and if it was still under 2.50 no problem we know the fuel was being covered. when it went to $3.00 a gallon our new worst case scenario was now $3.50 a gallon.

So it went up $1.00 a gallon how we gonna get that back? we are not gonna eat it! How about just increasing the rate? So how much we raise it?

Lets find worse case:
Freeway driving 60 minutes out of the hour at 60 MPH getting 20 MPG = 3 gallons used, $1.00 extra per gallon = $3.00 extra on the freeway.

City driving 60 minutes out of the hour at stop and go average 20 MPH getting 5 MPG = 4 gallons used, $1.00 extra per gallon - $4.00 extra around town.

So it looks like the city driving is the worst case so up go the rates $4.00 an hour (or $4.00 an hour fuel surcharge)

So Now the charge is $74.00 an hour

Scenario 1. Guy books a 7 hour job with 2 hours actual travel time (assume worst case)I just made $20 dollars extra for 5 hours with no travel ($4.00 an hour times 5)

Scenario 2. Guy books a 7 hour job with 7 hours of travel time (assume wost case) I did not make any extra from my rate increase precautions.

But in both scenarios I still covered all my costs and made my profit from operating I always do regardless of how the client uses the vehicle.

Saying to a client I have to charge you More because you are using my vehicle more than the average. When I already have the vehicle priced in a way that covers all expenses regardless of how it is used is not an ethical practice. You are simply adding on an arbitrary figure because you fell slighted that someone wants to get their moneys worth from your service.

More than the "average" user was your statement Nicole. Well if your gonna say "more than average" you should really have an idea of what average is.

And if doing the "average run" is your goal and you charge extra for anything above the average. What would you say if your drivers came to you saying: "an average run is 3 drops and 100 miles, this run you gave me is 6 drops and 200 miles I am doing double the work so I think I should get paid double time for all hours and double gratuity." Or would you tell them to suck it up and go to work?

[Steve W.]

Heaven Wrote:

I can't believe you would do, say a 3 hour AD trip for $90/hr and eat the return trip, or am I wrong???

No heaven no one is saying you should do that, get paid for every hour you are out there. Just dont balk when you have to work and have expences for every hour you are out there. Stick to a price that covers your expences and provides for the kind of profit you want.

[HeavenOnWheels]

Originally posted by Steve W.:
Heaven Wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I can't believe you would do, say a 3 hour AD trip for $90/hr and eat the return trip, or am I wrong???

No heaven no one is saying you should do that, get paid for every hour you are out there. Just dont balk when you have to work and have expences for every hour you are out there. Stick to a price that covers your expences and provides for the kind of profit you want. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who the hell is balking?

[Steve W.]

I am basically doing 2 proms for the price of one. Anyone else have this problem before?
^^^ Balking^^^^

[HeavenOnWheels]

Originally posted by Steve W.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I am basically doing 2 proms for the price of one. Anyone else have this problem before?
^^^ Balking^^^^ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your a piece of work, and that is me being nice. I was simply asking for opinions, and created a topic that has obviously has created a lot of opinion and discussion. When you can get off your high horse and hang with the rest of us down here, your more than welcome.

You seem to have the same infectious disease as others on this forum of talking down to people just to prove your, what? I don't know. Your experience? Is it to show of your intelligence? Maybe it's to prove a point? Not exactly sure!

I am not on here to make enemies, nor am I on here to have see who's got the longest and biggest limo, if you know what I mean.

Until now I have read, answered and responded to your questions. Don't feel it needed to go this far.

[Steve W.]

Yea Balking was not a good term as you did not refuse to do the run that would have been Balking, sorry bout that.

Just giving you my opinion on the subject. That opinion is: charge a premium price provide premium service and don't sweat the small stuff. No one is trying to get one over on ya they are just trying to give you their hard earned money for your time. This business is easy if you want it to be. But I think you already know that your doing fine!

[First Class Limos]

The main problem is the customer has deceived you. If the limo company deceived the customer all hell is to pay, but when the customer does it, its ok!

[gunny]

In certain parts, operators sell prom packages that are priced at market demands. The prom package is a set type of service with restrictions and minimum set hours that extend well beyond the minimums set for an AD.

There are also wedding packages that are up-priced based on service and again, demand. And I was taught right from the get go how to feel out the callers looking for pricing as an hourly whereas it was for a wedding. And it happened quite often as some folks are just not very honest.

Not fair to upcharge these type services & book them as packages? Tell that to the operators in Denver & Minneapolis this fall when McCain & Hillary get nominated. Tell that to the operators in Tampa when the Super Bowl rolls into town. And this isn't the only business that prices by supply & demand.

The guy calls & presents to HOW that he wants to book a limo to take his "son" & friends to the prom. The pricing is given and an agreement was made on transporting the "son" and his friends to the prom. The day before the prom the guy calls & tells HOW, after you transport his "son" and friends to the prom, go to this adress & transport another group to the prom. In my book that is a new arrangement/offer that need not be honored as it takes a minimum of 2 to make a contract. And I'm sure that Daddy didn't pick up the tab all by himself & these kids probably paid per person as much for "luxury transportation" as they did for a lukewarm slice of prime rib & some cold veggies to put it all into perspective.

With all the drawbacks, one of the great thing about owning your own business is that you get to call the shots.

[Steve W.]

Not fair to upcharge these type services & book them as packages?
I am all for getting as much as you can get at prime times. Here's the rub

Standard A/D you get 90 an hour and the person can have as many stops and passenger as they like. I mean it's an as directed you don't know the routing you gonna charge after the fact?

Prom package comes in and bumps up the rate to say 150 (thats fine) but now there are restrictions on how the vehicle can be used and the number of people that are to be transported?

How is that fair in any respect? Yes Gunny the basic thing is you can do it because we all set our own rules. But what is the downside? We get to see the result of this on Peoples Court about how these owners bend kids over just because they can get away with it. And try to pawn it off as "good business strategy" when in fact it's nothing more than gouging for sport. The sport becomes how much can I charge and how little service can I provide in order to do these runs I hate doing and I have to pull teeth to get my drivers to do. Maybe I can start charging per can of coke consumed, have a limit on the radio volume, charge extra if some glitter gets on the seat.

And HOW talked about me coming down off my high horse well HOW the real truth is We all should be on a high horse of integrity in this business then we would not see the debilitating newspaper headlines we see on a regular basis that shed such a negative light on this industry.

Treat people fairly and make an honest dollar. If a CEO you were on a A/D with sent you back to HQ to take some if his sales staff to the airport while he eats lunch and not charge extra then a customer sending 2 separate groups of kids to a destination should not incur any additional fees over your hourly charge. If you would charge the CEO extra good for you, I could never get away with it with my corporate accounts!

And even if they are not honest with you don't lower yourself to their level. Just like you should never lower your price just because someone says "Oh I go this real easy run for you give me a deal" your rates are your rates stand firm no matter how much or little work is involved.

> The guy calls & presents to HOW that he wants to book a limo
> to take his "son" & friends to the prom. The pricing is given
> and an agreement was made on transporting the "son" and his
> friends to the prom.
I don't know Gunny thats your interpretation of it but I for one can tell you when i am booking runs it does not go like that. Usually something like this:

Customer: I need an 8 passenger limo for Saturday evening?
Me: Wheres the pick up and what times do you need it for?
Customer: local city and 7pm till 3am
Me: OK I can handle that the rate is $150 an hour
Customer: OK I will take it
Me: What kind of event is this?
Customer: Prom
Me: OK I will be sure to remove the alcohol, Whats your credit card info, routing etc.

Routing has nothing to do with the charges, only thing it is there for so the driver can plan out his run. They start listing out the 6 addresses I have to pick up at and the 3 stops they want to make and the 4 other people they want me to pick up while they are in the prom and take to the zoo and the 2 places they want to stop after for pictures and the 6 separate addresses they want me to drop them at I take it all down and say "See ya Saturday!" I am getting paid to do all that why then would I come and say "Oh now wait a minute I gave you a price but I did not realize you were going to have me work hard!!"

[gunny]

Originally posted by Steve W.:

Customer: I need an 8 passenger limo for Saturday evening?
Me: Wheres the pick up and what times do you need it for?
Customer: local city and 7pm till 3am
Me: OK I can handle that the rate is $150 an hour
Customer: OK I will take it
Me: What kind of event is this?
Customer: Prom
Me: OK I will be sure to remove the alcohol, Whats your credit card info, routing etc.

Now this is the typical "several thousand prom calls" I fielded:

The callers & prom arrangers were normally the gals

C- Yes, I was wondering if you have any limos left open for a prom on (date)
M - Yes we do, an 8 passenger and a 10 passenger. Do how many you will be needing transport for?
C - Not sure yet, it will either be 6 or 8.
M - Our package for the 8 passenger is a 10 hour minimum for $1,200 and $100 per hour per hour after the initial 10. Would you like to set up an appointment to see the limos & place a deposit?

A prom package as a wedding package is a special package & because of the additional risks & responsibilties involved with transporting minors, there are set limitations. There are operators who refuse proms as a matter of fact. Comparing a prom to a corporate AD is apples to oranges.

This has nothing to do with showing the kids respect & in the particular set of circumstances presented by HOW, if anyone was disrespectful, it was Daddy. Where others may have told Mr Tightwad (who knew exactly the bullshit he was pulling) to fark off when he pulled his shit, HOW bit his tongue & went beyond what the "original" agreement called for. And I'm sure Judge Judy would agree http://limos.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[LimoNewbie]

Okay, now, try to understand this, not every single company is going to have the exact same rates, exact same policies, etc. With that thought, HOW was asking for ideas on how other companies would deal with this particular situation. I would have charged a fuel surcharge, not double the price of the package. Yes, I believe (my opinion here, not same as yours, Steve) the consumer was wrong in throwing out the "double" booking, yes, he got one over on HOW, it happens quite frequently. We are upfront with the prices we charge, the rates are a little lower than some companies because we do have the fuel charge to help compensate. All in all, it might work out in the end pricing to be fairly competitive.

To address the higher rates during prom season - Prom kids are a lot more difficult to deal with than regular nights out. You have to treat them with kid gloves from beginning to end. You should know as well as I the risks are higher when they are onboard (that is, if you've ever driven one of your limos, instead of just managing). We do pay our drivers a higher wage during this time to help compensate. Numerous times when driving I have encountered many problems exhibited by these teenie-boppers, alcohol, drugs, etc., much more is at stake, and much more is visible since the partition is down at all times. You cannot compare the extra attention being given, the extra detail going into these types of runs, to a wedding, or an A/D evening. Our drivers are on high alert when the clients are in the vehicles, we, as a company, are responsible for these children and need to ensure their safety.

Please don't bash others, or make others "balk" because their practices are slighty different than yours.

[Limo Scene]

I will buy into your comment (Nicole & Gunny) that everyone has the right to make their own policies for their own company and should not be ridiculed about it as it is their company.

The difference in the success and growth of a company based on policies that treat one class of society or one market segment different than another.

I don't buy the whole theory on proms being extra work. It is clearly a mix. I have had rowdy teens and quiet, polite, sophisticated teens. Likewise, I have had adults who behanved like adults and drunk adults who have behaved worse than the most obnoxious teens. Once again, it is stereotyping. It is saying all kids should pay more because they "might" be more work.

While I myself keep my rates the same, each and every day of the year so my clients always know the rate they will pay, I can accept that people raise their price for prom because of the supply and demand issue. Just try to get a hotel by a river on Memorial Day weekend. The rates go sky high while the same room in the winter is practically given away. I don't do it. But, I don't knock others who do.

I just don't understand why when they pay the same as a businessman (if not more) they are not treated the same. A/D is A/D - Period. I like your analogy Steve of the CEO sending the car back to HQ while he eats. Of course you are not going to charge the CEO more. If he paid for the car for three hours, those three hours belong to him. He is the boss - he calls the shots - he paid for the three hours.

The teen who ponies up the same amount of money (or more!) should be given the same respect. And Heave, I don't think Steve meant any disrespect to you nor do I. We have been doing this a long time and we just call the picture as we see it based on our many years of experience. As you can see, I will celebrate my 8th year here on the forum this month and on Saturday our company will celebrate our 18th birthday. Along the way I have learned a few things from many operators here on the forum and by visiting and consulting with many around the nation and even the world. I don't think we ever stop learning and we certainly should never stop sharing what we know.

After being named operator of the year by two magazines, I had many people call me to ask me how we did it and if I could help them. Limos.com bestowed the title of Grand Master to me on the forum - a distinction I am proud of. I earned over $21,000 by consulting with other limo companies in 2007. I sold these companies operating manuals, developed marketing campaigns and training programs for them. It is rewarding to help others and I don't try to come off as being on a high horse but sharing my knowledge both here and in my monthly magazine articles and show seminars. If ideas shared help someone, I am happy to do so. In some cases, I probably don't know enough about a particular market to help and freely admit that. But at least I try to dispense free advice here of what I do know.

I wish you the best of success in your operation and welcome you to the forum. The topic has been one filled with fury and passion and that is what a forum is all about. Thank you for your contribution and making us all think deeply about what it is we are doing.

[David Merrill]

What ever happened to the old saying, "the Customer is always right". So they pull one off on you once in a while, Big Deal. Take it like a man or women. How many times have you pulled one off on them?

[sevenswild]

Just because they pay doesn't mean a client won't need more attention. Some adults do need more attention, but percentage is higher with teens. You're arguing to argue. If you constantly have to tell us how good you are, maybe you are trying to convince yourself also.

[HeavenOnWheels]

Originally posted by gunny:
With all the drawbacks, one of the great thing about owning your own business is that you get to call the shots.

Couldn't have said it any better myself!

And Dave, of course the "customer is always right," as long as the price is just as right!!
http://limos.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Limo Scene]

Hmmmm......let's do some math? Prom season = 2 months out of 12. Total of 8 Saturday nights x as many cars as you run.

Adults rent every weekend. That is 52 Saturdays + 52 Fridays...... a total of 104 "party nights" for adults x as many cars as you run.

Who requires more attention? Adults or kids. Come on, this is 3rd grade math. We serve way more adults than we do kids and a bunch of drunks are much more difficult to control because they are legally able to keep drinking all night. At least with kids if you do have to yell at them and threaten to end the ride for misbehavior they will settle down. Can't say the same for adults.

[Dean Schuler]

In this part of the country the kids are much harder to control. Then there are the law-braking civilian parents to deal with[.QUOTE]Originally posted by Limo Scene:
Hmmmm......let's do some math? Prom season = 2 months out of 12. Total of 8 Saturday nights x as many cars as you run.

Adults rent every weekend. That is 52 Saturdays + 52 Fridays...... a total of 104 "party nights" for adults x as many cars as you run.

Who requires more attention? Adults or kids. Come on, this is 3rd grade math. We serve way more adults than we do kids and a bunch of drunks are much more difficult to control because they are legally able to keep drinking all night. At least with kids if you do have to yell at them and threaten to end the ride for misbehavior they will settle down. Can't say the same for adults.[/QUOTE]

[gunny]

Originally posted by sevenswild:
Just because they pay doesn't mean a client won't need more attention. Some adults do need more attention, but percentage is higher with teens. You're arguing to argue. If you constantly have to tell us how good you are, maybe you are trying to convince yourself also.

Agreed on all counts!

100% of prom goers need special/extra attention, due diligence & assumed responsibilty not afforded to adults starting with the signing of the contracts.

[HeavenOnWheels]

Originally posted by Limo Scene:
Hmmmm......let's do some math? Prom season = 2 months out of 12. Total of 8 Saturday nights x as many cars as you run.



Actually here, prom season starts mid March and goes all the way through May, and Fridays for most of the suburbs and private schools. Not that it means anything, but, thought I'd throw that out there!

And there is the added contract for prom kids, constant watching to make sure they are not spiking the sodas, smoking, getting it on in the back seat of the car, etc etc etc....

Not arguing, just stating. It is just as much work as any other run, if not more.

[David Merrill]

Now I know some one will take what I am saying the wrong way but please hear me out and think about it. Now I know that when you deal with Kids there are special considerations (I know, I drive a school bus with all grades on board) you have to make sure that no laws are violated like underage drinking, underage smoking, underage Sex, ect. If any of these a violated, you terminate the run, take every one back home and pocket the proceeds. I only had to do it once and that was because the Parent was the one who put the bottle in the car with out me knowing it.

Now let me ask you this: What do you do if you have a Celeberty in your Limo and they are violating a few laws like smoking a little "weed", doing a little "coke" or what ever, do you terminate the run and kick them out? Sometimes a Celeberty requires a little extra attention, do you charge them an extra charge if they want to make a few extra stops? I delt with a lot of Celeberties and sports figures when I worked in the Detroit (you who have been around a while know who I mean) market. Many times I had to do a lot of extra running around taking people here and picking up people there. There was a lot of stuff going on in the back that I could only use my imagination on because the partition was up. I don't know how much the Limo company got but I as the Chauffeur did not see any extra tip. Just wonder how you handle Celeberties who like to act up a little in the Limo and what you do if they do.

[David Merrill]

Originally posted by sevenswild:
Just because they pay doesn't mean a client won't need more attention. Some adults do need more attention, but percentage is higher with teens. You're arguing to argue. If you constantly have to tell us how good you are, maybe you are trying to convince yourself also.

Boy Jim that was a real stinger http://limos.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Karl]

Originally posted by David Merrill:
Now let me ask you this: What do you do if you have a Celeberty in your Limo and they are violating a few laws like smoking a little "weed", doing a little "coke" or what ever, do you terminate the run and kick them out?
In short, not right away. Bring it to their attention and let them have a fair opportunity to "correct" themselves.

Sometimes a Celeberty requires a little extra attention, do you charge them an extra charge if they want to make a few extra stops?
If you are talking a-b transfers it depends. If it can be done within the allotted time and grace, I wouldn't be inclined to bother. Beyond that, it shouldn’t be long before it migrates into an hourly run anyway. To think of it another way, all rates should be based on time or mileage, whichever is greater. Now, say you have a minimum of two hours on your sedan; how much less is your transfer rate really gong to be? How much time would someone have to kill with additional stops before they meet the minimum? Fifteen minutes? Twenty? Thirty-five?

[HeavenOnWheels]

Originally posted by David Merrill:
Now I know some one will take what I am saying the wrong way but please hear me out and think about it. Now I know that when you deal with Kids there are special considerations (I know, I drive a school bus with all grades on board) you have to make sure that no laws are violated like underage drinking, underage smoking, underage Sex, ect. If any of these a violated, you terminate the run, take every one back home and pocket the proceeds. I only had to do it once and that was because the Parent was the one who put the bottle in the car with out me knowing it.

Now let me ask you this: What do you do if you have a Celeberty in your Limo and they are violating a few laws like smoking a little "weed", doing a little "coke" or what ever, do you terminate the run and kick them out? Sometimes a Celeberty requires a little extra attention, do you charge them an extra charge if they want to make a few extra stops? I delt with a lot of Celeberties and sports figures when I worked in the Detroit (you who have been around a while know who I mean) market. Many times I had to do a lot of extra running around taking people here and picking up people there. There was a lot of stuff going on in the back that I could only use my imagination on because the partition was up. I don't know how much the Limo company got but I as the Chauffeur did not see any extra tip. Just wonder how you handle Celeberties who like to act up a little in the Limo and what you do if they do.

Dave, the one big difference between kids and a celebrity is usually the Celebrity is an adult!

Does that mean I am going to let them smoke weed in our car? I have a no smoking policy in all my limos. Now, if they are sniffing or injecting with a needle......well then as long as there is no smoke in my car.....

http://limos.com/graemlins/rofl.gif

IM JUST KIDDING BY THE WAY!! Just in case!

[sevenswild]

Okay, so I admit...my remarks the other day were uncalled for. I lost my temper (many reasons other than this thread-but no excuses) and was quite flippant and disrespectful. Look, Mr. Luff you do deserve credit and respect, you've accomplished a lot and I appreciate your knowledge here. Sorry

[Limo Scene]

The apology is nice and appreciated. I also respect that this is a forum. People have different ideas, thoughts and opinions and the world doesn't always agree on things. Being able to share that information here is what makes it so great. With 8 years here on the forum almost every day, I have pretty thick skin and don't sweat when someone doesn't agree with me. I just keep sharing as well as learning from this forum.

Gunny and I frequently agree to disagree and move on. Maybe he gets too much East Coast ocean breeze and I get too much West Coast ocean breeze. While he pisses me off here - I have much respect for the man for many reasons other than what he spews here. The real Gunny is a warm, compassionate, caring soul who makes sacrifices on a daily basis that most of us would not be able to do. It is not my place to share his personal life but lets just say he leads an extraordinary one in his day to day life and is one helluva a man.

I am glad you joined the forum and I hope you learn from it as well as regularly offer your knowledge and experience too.

[Dean Schuler]

The School of Hard Knocks is the best teacher...

[Boss]

Ok, I'm going to try to explain this as good as I can. I had a customer who booked our 10 passenger limo for a prom. He was notably disturbed at how much the price was, but booked it anyways. As always, we require an itinerary be sent to us before the date of the event. Just today I receive his itinerary for this Sat night for his sons prom. He has us picking up his son and his friends at his(customers) house, taking them to dinner, going back to a friend of his sons house(totally different address than customers address), picking him (sons friend) and 9 of his friends and taking them to dinner (at the same restaurant). Then taking the first party from the restaurant to prom, back to the restaurant to pick up the second party and taking them to prom as well! Finally at the end of the night, make two return trips from the Prom back.

Now, I understand that when a customer books a limo, we work for the customer. I also understand that since he booked the entire night of 7 hours, we should have no problem working the entire night. However I feel a little cheated since he did not originally tell us what his intentions were when he booked the limo in the first place. I am basically doing 2 proms for the price of one. Anyone else have this problem before? Should I just bite my tongue and say nothing? Any ideas would help!

Thanks,
J. Roman
www.HeavenOnWheels.com (http://www.HeavenOnWheels.com)

We send out a Hire Contract to the customer with a full itinerary of what the job entails. The customer must check that all of the details are correct, date, times addresses etc, agree to our terms and conditions, then sign and return the Hire Contract to us together with there deposit payment. Only then do we confirm there booking, stating that any alterations or additions to there booking must be passed through our office first and may be liable for additional charges.

Boss.
www.pjlimousines.co.uk (http://www.pjlimousines.co.uk)

[JetBiz]

We no longer do this type of business. But, whenever this scenario had presented itself, our standard response was to inform the client that we would not leave the kids without car and driver. Doing do sets you up for all kinds of potential problems.

[JLovelimo]

This happens everyonce in a while. The way I look at it is, if you are paying your driver for 8 hrs not to mention 20% gratuity of whatever your hourly rate may be for a prom (usually a higher number then normal) I would rather the driver work then socializing at the prom with other driver. Lets face it, it only takes 20- 30 minutes for them to clean the car our after they drop the prom kids off and the rest of the time they are getting paid to be at a social event.

We also have the parents and students sign a prom promise. The guide lines are that the parents give us the itinerary and the students can NOT change that. So if the parents are paying top dollar they are entitled to some fun.

[Brian K]

Yes, I realize I may be resurrecting an old thread.
But here is my twist which some may use to try to promote their service. I understand this will not have universal appeal. I realize some companies will have no trouble in booking their vehicles and won't have to consider this.

With the economy the way it is currently, and the 2009 prom season around the corner, the teens of today may have less discretionary income or purchasing power than they have had in past years. Why not promote the usage of the vehicle by some or all of the parents while it is not occupied by the students? The parents could be encouraged to "sponsor" all or part of their child's portion of the fare. There could be stipulations set in place for the various issues this may cause with time scheduling.
One such rule may be that once the entire party is present (if picked up from several locations), the vehicle does not move from one location to the next unless the entire party in on board. This may prevent half the parents wanting to go to dinner somewhere different than the other half.
Yes there may be some negatives to this approach. However I am only putting this out there for those who may be looking for some extra value to offer a potential customer when they might otherwise have a vehicle sitting for the night.
Some benefits may be extra tips for the chauffeur and perhaps some positive admiration for the company (word of mouth advertising) from the parents who were able to enjoy the service firsthand.

[BLVD Limo]

That may work for you. For me, I haven't had that hard of a time booking for prom. I have one stretch, a 120" LTC, and I have over half the proms booked.

[tony35]

I don't and would never send the car back to take the parents out. If you want to go out i'll send another car ( you have to pay for). But the limo for the prom stays at the prom. i am located in upstate NY and had many a prom where kids get sick, whatever and you have to take them home. We have been at many proms where kids have OD and prom lets out early. How would they like that if the car was with their parents. I'm not going to do double the work for the same price.

As far as socializing, why shouldn't he talk to some other drivers once in a while, to me a happy chauffeur takes care of my customers and vehicles. I still drive proms myself if not for anything then seeing the friends i've made thru the years. i still get calls to this day for prom and then the parent says then send the car back and we are going out. And i say NO, i don't do that, find another company.

[ASAP]

i still get calls to this day for prom and then the parent says then send the car back and we are going out. And i say NO, i don't do that, find another company.

Don't you charge a hourly rate? If the parents are paying for the limo by the hour with a minimum, you should do whatever they ask of you. So much for customer service.

[Limo Wire]

I have offered in the past to do this, it was not taken advantage of very much. I can assure you my chauffeurs hated it. Instead of getting paid for sitting in a parking lot a lot of driving being done during this. You do have watch their time, people have no concept of time when they are out in a limo. And when you have a group of parents out all of the sudden they forget this is their kids night.

[Elegant Limousines of Palm Coast]

We have had parents say the same. ( The adults want to got out too) We agree with Tony35.
You never know what can happen at prom. Say you go to get the parents and for some reason the kids need you now. Even though you are with the parents the kids are left without a limo. The the rumors start and you become the Limo company that left the kids at the prom. See if anyone from that school calls for next year. And all because the parents wanted to go out. I don't think so !!

Elegant Limousines of Palm Coast
www.elegantlimousines1.com
www.elegantjacksonvillelimos.info
386-793-1077

[gunny]

"Charter transportation of passengers means transportation, using a bus, of a group of persons who pursuant to a common purpose, under a single contract, at a fixed charge for the motor vehicle, have acquired the exclusive use of the motor vehicle to travel together under an itinerary either specified in advance or modified after having left the place of origin."

Using this definition as a guide & "travel together" as the key phrase, charter does not include transporting multiple groups as would be the case in transporting the prom kids & the parents separately. Doing such would command 2 separate contracts.

And for any concern that this definition is not applicable to a "stretch":

" Bus means any motor vehicle designed, constructed, and or used for the transportation of passengers, including taxicabs."

Ref: C.F.R. 390.5

[Cedar Mill Limousine]

The problem we have is that the companies in this area do not charge while the kids are in the prom. For example, the typical package is: 1 hour before and 4 hours after (they usually go to Chicago for dinner afterwards, we are just over the border in Indiana). I like the reasoning of having them pay for us to stay there since you don't know if an emergency would arise, but I am not sure with all the other companies charging the other way if we would get any takers. It takes a lot to change a market's way of thinking.

[wflimonj]

The problem we have is that the companies in this area do not charge while the kids are in the prom. For example, the typical package is: 1 hour before and 4 hours after (they usually go to Chicago for dinner afterwards, we are just over the border in Indiana). I like the reasoning of having them pay for us to stay there since you don't know if an emergency would arise, but I am not sure with all the other companies charging the other way if we would get any takers. It takes a lot to change a market's way of thinking.

I usually just do a drop off and pick up. I dont book many proms because most people want a stretch but we only have non stretched ESV's and LTC. Its really a bonus for me because unless i am booked for airport runs my car sits on fri and sat nights.

[TBLIMO]

The problem we have is that the companies in this area do not charge while the kids are in the prom. For example, the typical package is: 1 hour before and 4 hours after (they usually go to Chicago for dinner afterwards, we are just over the border in Indiana). I like the reasoning of having them pay for us to stay there since you don't know if an emergency would arise, but I am not sure with all the other companies charging the other way if we would get any takers. It takes a lot to change a market's way of thinking.

Rich,
I am trying to think in what kind of emergency you would need a stretch instead of an ambulance? anybody?

[Cedar Mill Limousine]

Rich,
I am trying to think in what kind of emergency you would need a stretch instead of an ambulance? anybody?

Look at Tony35 and Elegant's posts.

[TBLIMO]

Look at Tony35 and Elegant's posts.

Sorry, chemo brain at work here!

[Cedar Mill Limousine]

Sorry, chemo brain at work here!
I am glad it's you and not me-it's been a long week. I had to read mine twice to make sure I said it right!

[tony35]

Don't you charge a hourly rate? If the parents are paying for the limo by the hour with a minimum, you should do whatever they ask of you. So much for customer service.


ASAP

Customer service is being their when the customer needs you. What if their is an emergency and everyone has to leave, but my group can't, because i'm trucking their parents around. It's prom night, not parents night out.

[Elegant Limousines of Palm Coast]

Perfect example of an emergency that happened while we were doing a prom in 2007. Ok drop the kids off at prom, about 40 minutes later Chauffeur ( Owner ) gets the call that one of the girls sprained her ankle really bad and has called her mom but mom is a nurse and doesnt carry the cell while at work. Ok we fly to the front door help the girl to the limo, rush her to the local hospital. Try calling her mom again , no answer. Ok I wait with the girl since I was the Chauffeur that night and I am a lady also so she felt comfortable with me by her side. I call another Chauffeur to come get the limo and get back to the prom parking lot. Hes back on premise before anyone calls to leave prom. The mom finally gets there hugs me and says I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart, informs me that she just started her new job and doesnt have insurance yet and an ambulance ride is like $500 bucks that she cannot afford. She also could not believe that I stayed with her daughter instead of just dropping her off. I call my husband who was home to come and get me and the other Chauffeur finished the prom and most of the kids wanted to go see her, they had plenty of time left and instead of going for breakfast the whole group goes to the hospital in the limo. Mom again says how did you guys get here, they say the limo is outside waiting. That my friends who double book is the very reason we dont do that. Had we done the double booking , that girl would of waited for an ambulance and also would of had a fat hospital bill...

[Geoff Levine]

I agree with Tony that you should be ready and available for the kids if they need to be early. But ultimately, if the parents are paying for the limo, they are the clients. If the client wants you to drop the kids off at the prom and then come back and pick them up for a quick dinner, I just don't see the problem. I personally wouldn't want to do it, but they are paying for the limo by the hour.

What bugs me is companies that are charging kids for the whole time, but while the kids are at the prom, they try and send the limo out on other jobs. I have seen this backfire many times and leave kids waiting for their limo, or get a dirty limo with empty beer cans and booze bottles and dirty glasses, or even stolen personal items that were left in the limo while they were at the dance.

[The Leader]

Here in OZ we just drop them off and they find their own way home.
If any problems arise they can call their parents or the ambulance.
If the parents are paying then they should be able to do what they want. I'd rather be doing mulitple trips than sitting somewhere waiting.

[BLVD Limo]

Here in OZ we just drop them off and they find their own way home.
If any problems arise they can call their parents or the ambulance.
If the parents are paying then they should be able to do what they want. I'd rather be doing mulitple trips than sitting somewhere waiting.

Same here. I just do the drop off unless they want the pick-up as well. Around here, there are many school-sponsored after prom events so the kids want to hurry home to change clothes and get back to the school so they can catch the bus to the after prom party.

When I do just the drop-off and no pick-up, they usually have left several vehicles at the prom location for them to drive home or to breakfast or whereever they might go. this allows me to do other late night jobs such as wedding reception transfers that occur at midnight.

[Elite]

The 8-12 hour proms are rare around here now too. Mostly 3-4 hr drive arounds for pics and then dropoff at the event. They are frequently bussed to a cruise after, and then bussed again to the "dry grad(prom)".

[Geoff Levine]

Knock on wood, proms are usually 6-7 hours(5pm-11 or 12) around here. Easy money.

[wimpy01]

Tight bookings create other potential problems. Afternoon wedding with 2 hours between drop & prom pickup. 2 different chauffeurs, each driver is responsible for clean-up after their run. 2nd chauffeur did a quick interior check for sodas & water and found 2 unopened cans of beer from the wedding in the ice well.

We lost a chauffeur...uh, driver that day!

[Geoff Levine]

Tight bookings create other potential problems. Afternoon wedding with 2 hours between drop & prom pickup. 2 different chauffeurs, each driver is responsible for clean-up after their run. 2nd chauffeur did a quick interior check for sodas & water and found 2 unopened cans of beer from the wedding in the ice well.

We lost a chauffeur...uh, driver that day!

Yeah, always look for alcohol in the limo before picking up minors.

Another thing is porn in the dvd player. I had a junior high school run to the roller coaster and the vice principal was sitting next to me. As soon as I was loaded up I heard the kids saying, "Cool, theres a movie in there already, hit play". I realized the bachelor party the night befor had left their dvd. Luckily, I hit the master power switch before catastrophe could strike. That would have ruined my reputation real quick. Seriously, be careful. Shit happens.

[The Leader]

That would have ruined my reputation real quick. Seriously, be careful.

LOL - might have had the opposite effect and all the kids would have been booking you :3some:

[Geoff Levine]

LOL - might have had the opposite effect and all the kids would have been booking you :3some:

Very true.

I'm going to the hospital for surgery right now. If my anethesialogist(sp?) is good, I'll talk to guys/gals later today. Have a good one.

[Jim30]

The norm here is "split time" as well. I dont know where this started but that is just the way it is here. That is what they ask for and that is the market.

The kids are told the limo does not stay with them. We make them give us a pickup time when reserving the limo, usually prom end time.

Again, this is the norm in the Buffalo market.

So...deal is, if I can squeeze another booking in between that prom I am going to do it. It is good opportunity for us to do some transfers or a short dinner run. Usually prom is 6pm to 11pm or midnite.

The only time I don't do it is if I have over 40 minutes dead head from base to the prom location (unless the pickup drop off is close by prom) then I have the chauffeur sit there and chill out getting paid. I tell them to go get dinner or something. Close proms when I don't book anything in between I just tell them to just take the car home until after prom. We also will try to talk people into going downtown early (the bar hoppers) around 10, drop them off and are back at the prom by 11pm. We then will go get the bar hoppers around 3 or 4 am (bars are open until 4am).

Gotta make it when the makins' good!

Jim

[Limo Wire]

So what kind of money do you charge for these drops at the prom?

[Geoff Levine]

The norm here is "split time" as well. I dont know where this started but that is just the way it is here. That is what they ask for and that is the market.

The kids are told the limo does not stay with them. We make them give us a pickup time when reserving the limo, usually prom end time.

Again, this is the norm in the Buffalo market.

So...deal is, if I can squeeze another booking in between that prom I am going to do it. It is good opportunity for us to do some transfers or a short dinner run. Usually prom is 6pm to 11pm or midnite.

The only time I don't do it is if I have over 40 minutes dead head from base to the prom location (unless the pickup drop off is close by prom) then I have the chauffeur sit there and chill out getting paid. I tell them to go get dinner or something. Close proms when I don't book anything in between I just tell them to just take the car home until after prom. We also will try to talk people into going downtown early (the bar hoppers) around 10, drop them off and are back at the prom by 11pm. We then will go get the bar hoppers around 3 or 4 am (bars are open until 4am).

Gotta make it when the makins' good!

Jim

Jim, I totally understand why you would want to try and charge for as many different transfers a s possible. But unlike you, there are companies here that are charging for the whole time the kids have the limo and they are supposed to be in standby for the kids. This is just not professional.

[DenverLimo]

I dont know how your market is up there, however if i booked my limo for prom price i could care less if they drive 2 trips or 100 trips. as long as they pay!

[Daytona Limos]

Whoever is paying the bill calls the shots with us period. It really doesn’t mater if it’s a night on the town or a prom. The person who arranged and paid for the service is the one who decides where and when the limo moves during their hourly time. It amazes me how limo companies can offer so called as directed hourly service and then put stipulations on number of stops, pick ups or drop offs. Flat rate point to point trips are one thing but if the client is paying by the hour they get to do what they want during their time as long as the original pick up and final drop off are in the same city.

If the parents are paying for the limo we will take them wherever they want to go. If they want to go to dinner while their kids are at prom no problem. Look at it this way if the parents didn’t pay for the limo the kids would not have even had a ride to prom. If there is a problem at the dance they can call their parents and request the limo to return. Prom bookings are really no different than a night on the town booking, you always make sure you never leave the money man and he calls the shots (Can also be the money lady). We have left people at bars, clubs and other places when the money man said it was time to go. We will remind them that they are missing some people and many times get the response “I told them I wanted to go so screw em” At that point we go where our main client wants to go. The other passengers our not our responsibility if they don’t do what the money man wants they get left. I surely doubt you would argue with your client and say something like “Sorry sir we cannot leave until everyone you came with is ready to go.” The reverse also holds true I have had clients other than the money man ask to go somewhere without the money man. I tell them “The limo only moves on the main client’s direction and if he tells me to take you I will be happy to take you wherever you like, if not I cannot take you.”

Bottom line as direct hourly service is just that, its the client’s choice to go anywhere they would like. Think of it this way when you do a wedding many times you pick up the brides party and drop them off at the church then you go somewhere else and pick up the grooms party and drop them off at the church. This is the same as dropping off the kids at prom and the parents at dinner.

If it’s the extra driving and stops that bother you perhaps your rates are too low. Charge a fair rate and let the clients enjoy the service.

[Digger]

When going over the options of the vehicle with clients at the beginning of the night I always find out who my main client is and inform everyone in the group that this person is my boss tonight and I only go by his/her direction. I hate those nights when 10 people are telling you where to go (all different places), this eliminates the guests trying to get you to go somewhere that the main client hasn't approved. I always tell them "clear it with "X" and I'll go there, otherwise I can't do it". I've had some people get mad at me but I don't care, they are not my client.

[Limousines13]

Whoever is paying the bill calls the shots with us period. It really doesn’t mater if it’s a night on the town or a prom. The person who arranged and paid for the service is the one who decides where and when the limo moves during their hourly time. It amazes me how limo companies can offer so called as directed hourly service and then put stipulations on number of stops, pick ups or drop offs. Flat rate point to point trips are one thing but if the client is paying by the hour they get to do what they want during their time as long as the original pick up and final drop off are in the same city.

If the parents are paying for the limo we will take them wherever they want to go. If they want to go to dinner while their kids are at prom no problem. Look at it this way if the parents didn’t pay for the limo the kids would not have even had a ride to prom. If there is a problem at the dance they can call their parents and request the limo to return. Prom bookings are really no different than a night on the town booking, you always make sure you never leave the money man and he calls the shots (Can also be the money lady). We have left people at bars, clubs and other places when the money man said it was time to go. We will remind them that they are missing some people and many times get the response “I told them I wanted to go so screw em” At that point we go where our main client wants to go. The other passengers our not our responsibility if they don’t do what the money man wants they get left. I surely doubt you would argue with your client and say something like “Sorry sir we cannot leave until everyone you came with is ready to go.” The reverse also holds true I have had clients other than the money man ask to go somewhere without the money man. I tell them “The limo only moves on the main client’s direction and if he tells me to take you I will be happy to take you wherever you like, if not I cannot take you.”

Bottom line as direct hourly service is just that, its the client’s choice to go anywhere they would like. Think of it this way when you do a wedding many times you pick up the brides party and drop them off at the church then you go somewhere else and pick up the grooms party and drop them off at the church. This is the same as dropping off the kids at prom and the parents at dinner.

If it’s the extra driving and stops that bother you perhaps your rates are too low. Charge a fair rate and let the clients enjoy the service.


I couldn't have said it better! Exactly. The person who paid for the trip, I'm sorry I mean the person that we have on the contract that booked the service is the one and only person we talk to as far as going anywhere etc. This is the person that calls the shots. When you have people disorganized and yelling back and forth at each other in the limo what,when, and were they want to go we just ignore it and waite to hear what the client who booked us tells us whats next.